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Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs

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  • Matthew Johnson
    ... in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next too. Rahlfs not
    Message 1 of 29 , May 16, 2007
      --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
      in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs
      at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
      too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.

      That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols for
      Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)

      But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
      at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
      ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
      i.e.,

      they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
      shall understand.

      Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
      is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
      the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
      addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
      presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.

      > Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
      every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.

      I hope you do find this helpful.

      Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
      'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
      normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.

      [snip]
    • Peter Papoutsis
      I wanted to to but I m back to Understand . Thanks for the help it was greatly appriciated. Peter A. Papoutsis This e-mail may contain privileged or
      Message 2 of 29 , May 16, 2007
        I wanted to to but I'm back to "Understand". Thanks for the help it was greatly appriciated.
         
        Peter A. Papoutsis
         
        This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...>
        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33:12 PM
        Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs

        --- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
        in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs
        at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
        too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.

        That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols for
        Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)

        But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
        at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
        ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
        i.e.,

        they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
        shall understand.

        Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
        is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
        the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
        addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
        presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.

        > Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
        every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.

        I hope you do find this helpful.

        Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
        'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
        normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.

        [snip]




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      • Robert Kraft
        My email filter is not always letting things through, so if this repeats what someone else has already said, I apologize. The best place to look for variants
        Message 3 of 29 , May 17, 2007
          My email filter is not always letting things through, so if this repeats what someone else has
          already said, I apologize.

          The best place to look for variants to Old Greek Isaiah is Ziegler's Goettingen edition,
          despite its age (1939). I'm sorry that is is not yet available in the CATSS onlin variants
          files. (For an English explanation of the Goettingen sigla for Genesis and Exodus, see now
          http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/1Pentateuch/ -- the remaining
          pentateuchal introductions will follow soon.)

          According to Ziegler's apparatus, the words KAI NOHSOUSIN (and they will understand) do occur
          right at the end of 20.3, in MSS S [Sinaiticus] 393 [8th c palimpsest Grottaferrata A 15] 538
          [12th c Paris BiblNat Coisl 191] and Co [both extant Coptic versions; Sahidic and Bohairic].
          Thus it is clearly an old reading, not unique to Sinaiticus and not originating with the
          Sinaiticus scribe(s).

          Incidentally, the "signs and wonders" are not the "three years," but Isaiah's "nudity and
          barefootedness for three years." Let the reader understand!

          Ziegler's Goettingen Isaiah edition is on my shelf, if you need further information of this
          sort.

          Bob Kraft, UPenn

          >
          > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
          > in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs
          > at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
          > too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.
          >
          > That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols for
          > Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)
          >
          > But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
          > at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
          > ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
          > i.e.,
          >
          > they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
          > shall understand.
          >
          > Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
          > is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
          > the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
          > addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
          > presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.
          >
          > > Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
          > every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.
          >
          > I hope you do find this helpful.
          >
          > Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
          > 'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
          > normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.
          >
          > [snip]

          --
          Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
          227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
          kraft@...
          http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
        • andrew fincke
          Dear Peter, Sorry I got into the discussion late. Ethiopians is Aiqiopsin, which Sinaiticus and 393 didn t understand and interpreted it in the sense
          Message 4 of 29 , May 17, 2007
            Dear Peter,
            Sorry I got into the discussion late. "Ethiopians" is Aiqiopsin, which
            Sinaiticus and 393 didn't understand and interpreted it in the sense
            Aisqhsis "insight" and added "and they will understand" (aisqhsontai).
            Andrew Fincke


            >From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
            >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
            >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
            >
            >I wanted to to but I'm back to "Understand". Thanks for the help it was
            >greatly appriciated.
            >
            >Peter A. Papoutsis
            >
            >This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended
            >only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the
            >intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible
            >for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that
            >any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If
            >you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return
            >the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your
            >system.
            >
            >
            >
            >----- Original Message ----
            >From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...>
            >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
            >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33:12 PM
            >Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
            >
            >--- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
            >in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs
            >at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
            >too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.
            >
            >That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols for
            >Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)
            >
            >But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
            >at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
            >ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
            >i.e.,
            >
            >they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
            >shall understand.
            >
            >Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
            >is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
            >the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
            >addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
            >presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.
            >
            > > Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
            >every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.
            >
            >I hope you do find this helpful.
            >
            >Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
            >'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
            >normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.
            >
            >[snip]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
            >for the edge of your seat?
            >Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
            >http://tv.yahoo.com/

            _________________________________________________________________
            PC Magazine�s 2007 editors� choice for best Web mail�award-winning Windows
            Live Hotmail.
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          • Peter Papoutsis
            Thank you all for your help. The LXX group is great at deciphering this stuff. Peter A. Papoutsis This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential
            Message 5 of 29 , May 17, 2007
              Thank you all for your help. The LXX group is great at deciphering this stuff.
               
              Peter A. Papoutsis
               
              This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: andrew fincke <finckea@...>
              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:19:21 AM
              Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs

              Dear Peter,
              Sorry I got into the discussion late.  "Ethiopians" is Aiqiopsin, which
              Sinaiticus and 393 didn't understand and interpreted it in the sense
              Aisqhsis "insight" and added "and they will understand" (aisqhsontai).
              Andrew Fincke


              >From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
              >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
              >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
              >
              >I wanted to to but I'm back to "Understand". Thanks for the help it was
              >greatly appriciated.
              >
              >Peter A. Papoutsis
              >
              >This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended
              >only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the
              >intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible
              >for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified
              hereby that
              >any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If
              >you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return
              >the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your
              >system.
              >
              >
              >
              >----- Original Message ----
              >From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...>
              >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33:12 PM
              >Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
              >
              >--- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
              >in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs
              >at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
              >too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.
              >
              >That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols
              for
              >Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)
              >
              >But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
              >at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
              >ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
              >i.e.,
              >
              >they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
              >shall understand.
              >
              >Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
              >is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
              >the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
              >addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
              >presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.
              >
              > > Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
              >every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.
              >
              >I hope you do find this
              helpful.
              >
              >Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
              >'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
              >normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.
              >
              >[snip]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
              >for the edge of your seat?
              >Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
              >http://tv.yahoo.com/

              _________________________________________________________________
              PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows
              Live Hotmail.
              http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507




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            • Robert Kraft
              Not likely. I still have my Goettingen Isaiah open, and no MSS have trouble with Ethiopians in this context (two forms of the name occur in the subsequent
              Message 6 of 29 , May 17, 2007
                Not likely. I still have my Goettingen Isaiah open, and no MSS have trouble with "Ethiopians"
                in this context (two forms of the name occur in the subsequent verses). Why should it have
                presented any problems? Of course, the "added" words "and they will understand" could be
                understood as the start of the next verse -- "And they will understand that the king ...."

                Bob Kraft, UPenn


                > Dear Peter,
                > Sorry I got into the discussion late. "Ethiopians" is Aiqiopsin, which
                > Sinaiticus and 393 didn't understand and interpreted it in the sense
                > Aisqhsis "insight" and added "and they will understand" (aisqhsontai).
                > Andrew Fincke
                >
                >
                > >From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
                > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                > >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
                > >
                > >I wanted to to but I'm back to "Understand". Thanks for the help it was
                > >greatly appriciated.
                > >
                > >Peter A. Papoutsis
                > >
                > >This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended
                > >only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the
                > >intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible
                > >for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that
                > >any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If
                > >you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return
                > >the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your
                > >system.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >----- Original Message ----
                > >From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...>
                > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                > >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33:12 PM
                > >Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                > >
                > >--- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
                > >in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs
                > >at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
                > >too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.
                > >
                > >That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols for
                > >Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)
                > >
                > >But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
                > >at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
                > >ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
                > >i.e.,
                > >
                > >they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
                > >shall understand.
                > >
                > >Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
                > >is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
                > >the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
                > >addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
                > >presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.
                > >
                > > > Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
                > >every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.
                > >
                > >I hope you do find this helpful.
                > >
                > >Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
                > >'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
                > >normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.
                > >
                > >[snip]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
                > >for the edge of your seat?
                > >Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
                > >http://tv.yahoo.com/
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > PC Magazine�s 2007 editors� choice for best Web mail�award-winning Windows
                > Live Hotmail.
                > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >



                --
                Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                kraft@...
                http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
              • Wyrick, Jed
                Dear Bob, I think you dismiss Andrew’s ingenious solution to the additional NOHSOUSIN too quickly; I’m not yet sure it’s correct, but mss evidence may be
                Message 7 of 29 , May 17, 2007
                  Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs Dear Bob,

                  I think you dismiss Andrew’s ingenious solution to the additional NOHSOUSIN too quickly; I’m not yet sure it’s correct, but mss evidence may be of little use here.  If one were to write AIQIOPSIN without a cross-hatch in the letter psi, one would be left with AIQIOUIN, an incomprehensible form that could be interpreted as an error for the (admittedly nonexistent active forms) AISQOUSIN or AISQHSOUSIN (the latter keeping the future tense of ESTAI earlier in the verse).  It seems to my mind entirely possible that such a form could have been “corrected” as a mistake for AISQHSONTAI and then glossed as NOHSOUSIN (which would have avoided the problem with the impossible active form of AISQANOMAI).  The phenomenon of AIQIOPSIN being re-introduced into a later ms. and co-existing with the gloss NOHSOUSIN would be an example of “interpretive overkill.”

                  With regard to mss. evidence, there is no reason to assume that an obvious error (such as AIQIOUIN) would remain in existing manuscripts.  Scribes and editors often like correct(ed) texts!  
                  In any event, I think that there is a burden to explain the origin of the additional words, whether they belong at the end of v.3 or the beginning of v.4.
                  --JW

                  --
                  Jed Wyrick
                  Associate Professor of Religious Studies
                  Coordinator, Modern Jewish and Israel Studies
                  California State University, Chico
                  Chico, CA 95929-0740
                  530-898-6379
                  jwyrick@...




                  From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                  Reply-To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 12:50:59 -0400 (EDT)
                  To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs

                  Not likely. I still have my Goettingen Isaiah open, and no MSS have trouble with "Ethiopians"
                  in this context (two forms of the name occur in the subsequent verses). Why should it have
                  presented any problems? Of course, the "added" words "and they will understand" could be
                  understood as the start of the next verse -- "And they will understand that the king ...."

                  Bob Kraft, UPenn

                   
                  > Dear Peter,
                  > Sorry I got into the discussion late.  "Ethiopians" is Aiqiopsin, which
                  > Sinaiticus and 393 didn't understand and interpreted it in the sense
                  > Aisqhsis "insight" and added "and they will understand" (aisqhsontai).
                  > Andrew Fincke
                  >
                  >
                  > >From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
                  > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                  > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                  > >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
                  > >
                  > >I wanted to to but I'm back to "Understand". Thanks for the help it was
                  > >greatly appriciated.
                  > >
                  > >Peter A. Papoutsis
                  > >
                  > >This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended
                  > >only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the
                  > >intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible
                  > >for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that
                  > >any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If
                  > >you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return
                  > >the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your
                  > >system.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >----- Original Message ----
                  > >From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...>
                  > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33:12 PM
                  > >Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                  > >
                  > >--- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
                  > >in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs
                  > >at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
                  > >too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.
                  > >
                  > >That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols for
                  > >Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)
                  > >
                  > >But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
                  > >at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
                  > >ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
                  > >i.e.,
                  > >
                  > >they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
                  > >shall understand.
                  > >
                  > >Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
                  > >is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
                  > >the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
                  > >addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
                  > >presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.
                  > >
                  > > > Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
                  > >every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.
                  > >
                  > >I hope you do find this helpful.
                  > >
                  > >Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
                  > >'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
                  > >normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.
                  > >
                  > >[snip]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
                  > >for the edge of your seat?
                  > >Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
                  > >http://tv.yahoo.com/
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > PC Magazine‚s 2007 editors‚ choice for best Web mail˜award-winning Windows
                  > Live Hotmail.
                  > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                  227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                  kraft@...
                  http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html


                   
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                • Robert Kraft
                  This one seems fairly clear, for various reasons: 1. AIQIOY(IN) is not a strange term or spelling, and is found two more times in the immediate context. I
                  Message 8 of 29 , May 17, 2007
                    This one seems fairly clear, for various reasons:
                    1. AIQIOY(IN) is not a strange term or spelling, and is found two more
                    times in the immediate context. I appears several other times in LXX/OG
                    materials, and almost certainly in a widely known proverb (along with
                    the leopard and its spots). Why a copyist would have trouble with it is
                    beyond me, especially in this context.
                    2. NOHSOUSIN is appropriate for a context dealing with symbolism that
                    needs to be understood. It did not originate with the scribe(s) of
                    Sinaiticus, and makes good sense as a transition between the symbol
                    (nude and barefooted Isaiah) and its meaning (the Assyrian devastation
                    of Egypt and Ethiopia).
                    3. If one needs a clever explanation of how the words arose, how about
                    this: the subsequent reference to NEANISKOUS KAI PRESBUTAS (20.4)
                    somehow got shortened to PRESBUTAS, so a marginal correction was
                    inserted KAI NEANISKOUS which was misread as KAI NOHSOUS(IN). I'm
                    inclined to keep the Ethiopians, and find another solution, such as
                    that, if one is uncomfortable with simple transitional glue.

                    Bob Kraft, UPenn

                    Wyrick, Jed wrote:
                    > Dear Bob,
                    >
                    > I think you dismiss Andrew’s ingenious solution to the additional
                    > NOHSOUSIN too quickly; I’m not yet sure it’s correct, but mss evidence
                    > may be of little use here. If one were to write AIQIOPSIN without a
                    > cross-hatch in the letter psi, one would be left with AIQIOUIN, an
                    > incomprehensible form that could be interpreted as an error for the
                    > (admittedly nonexistent active forms) AISQOUSIN or AISQHSOUSIN (the
                    > latter keeping the future tense of ESTAI earlier in the verse). It
                    > seems to my mind entirely possible that such a form could have been
                    > “corrected” as a mistake for AISQHSONTAI and then glossed as NOHSOUSIN
                    > (which would have avoided the problem with the impossible active form of
                    > AISQANOMAI). The phenomenon of AIQIOPSIN being re-introduced into a
                    > later ms. and co-existing with the gloss NOHSOUSIN would be an example
                    > of “interpretive overkill.”
                    >
                    > With regard to mss. evidence, there is no reason to assume that an
                    > obvious error (such as AIQIOUIN) would remain in existing manuscripts.
                    > Scribes and editors often like correct(ed) texts!
                    > In any event, I think that there is a burden to explain the origin of
                    > the additional words, whether they belong at the end of v.3 or the
                    > beginning of v.4.
                    > --JW
                    >
                    > --
                    > Jed Wyrick
                    > Associate Professor of Religious Studies
                    > Coordinator, Modern Jewish and Israel Studies
                    > California State University, Chico
                    > Chico, CA 95929-0740
                    > 530-898-6379
                    > jwyrick@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > *From: *Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                    > *Reply-To: *<lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                    > *Date: *Thu, 17 May 2007 12:50:59 -0400 (EDT)
                    > *To: *<lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                    > *Subject: *Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                    >
                    > Not likely. I still have my Goettingen Isaiah open, and no MSS have
                    > trouble with "Ethiopians"
                    > in this context (two forms of the name occur in the subsequent verses).
                    > Why should it have
                    > presented any problems? Of course, the "added" words "and they will
                    > understand" could be
                    > understood as the start of the next verse -- "And they will understand
                    > that the king ...."
                    >
                    > Bob Kraft, UPenn
                    >
                    >
                    >> Dear Peter,
                    >> Sorry I got into the discussion late. "Ethiopians" is Aiqiopsin, which
                    >> Sinaiticus and 393 didn't understand and interpreted it in the sense
                    >> Aisqhsis "insight" and added "and they will understand" (aisqhsontai).
                    >> Andrew Fincke
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> >From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
                    >> >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                    >> >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                    >> >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                    >> >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
                    >> >
                    >> >I wanted to to but I'm back to "Understand". Thanks for the help it was
                    >> >greatly appriciated.
                    >> >
                    >> >Peter A. Papoutsis
                    >> >
                    >> >This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended
                    >> >only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the
                    >> >intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible
                    >> >for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby
                    > that
                    >> >any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly
                    > prohibited. If
                    >> >you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately,
                    > return
                    >> >the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your
                    >> >system.
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >----- Original Message ----
                    >> >From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...>
                    >> >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                    >> >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33:12 PM
                    >> >Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                    >> >
                    >> >--- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
                    >> > >
                    >> > > Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
                    >> >in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs
                    >> >at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
                    >> >too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.
                    >> >
                    >> >That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols for
                    >> >Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)
                    >> >
                    >> >But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
                    >> >at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
                    >> >ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
                    >> >i.e.,
                    >> >
                    >> >they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
                    >> >shall understand.
                    >> >
                    >> >Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
                    >> >is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
                    >> >the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
                    >> >addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
                    >> >presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.
                    >> >
                    >> > > Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
                    >> >every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.
                    >> >
                    >> >I hope you do find this helpful.
                    >> >
                    >> >Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
                    >> >'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
                    >> >normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.
                    >> >
                    >> >[snip]
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >>
                    > >____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
                    >
                    >> >for the edge of your seat?
                    >> >Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
                    >> >http://tv.yahoo.com/
                    >>
                    >> _________________________________________________________________
                    >> PC Magazine‚s 2007 editors‚ choice for best Web mail˜award-winning
                    > Windows
                    >> Live Hotmail.
                    >>
                    > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
                    > <http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                    > 227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                    > kraft@...
                    > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Wyrick, Jed
                    Perhaps you’re right, Bob. As I look at it again, the following verse begins with HOTI—and so your “transitional glue” might be the best solution
                    Message 9 of 29 , May 17, 2007
                      Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant Perhaps you’re right, Bob.  As I look at it again, the following verse begins with HOTI—and so your “transitional glue” might be the best solution after all—KAI NOHSOUSIN should indeed go with v. 4 on this reading as a means of softening the abruptness of a verse meaning “That in this way the king of the Assyrians will lead the captivity of Egypt and Ethiopia...”  Interesting to consider what exactly the translators considered to be the equivalent of Hebrew KEN...was it the HOUTWS or the HOTI?

                      Jed Wyrick



                      From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                      Organization: Penn Religious Studies
                      Reply-To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 17:25:21 -0400
                      To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant

                       
                       
                       

                      This one seems fairly clear, for various reasons:
                      1. AIQIOY(IN) is not a strange term or spelling, and is found two more
                      times in the immediate context. I appears several other times in LXX/OG
                      materials, and almost certainly in a widely known proverb (along with
                      the leopard and its spots). Why a copyist would have trouble with it is
                      beyond me, especially in this context.
                      2. NOHSOUSIN is appropriate for a context dealing with symbolism that
                      needs to be understood. It did not originate with the scribe(s) of
                      Sinaiticus, and makes good sense as a transition between the symbol
                      (nude and barefooted Isaiah) and its meaning (the Assyrian devastation
                      of Egypt and Ethiopia).
                      3. If one needs a clever explanation of how the words arose, how about
                      this: the subsequent reference to NEANISKOUS KAI PRESBUTAS (20.4)
                      somehow got shortened to PRESBUTAS, so a marginal correction was
                      inserted KAI NEANISKOUS which was misread as KAI NOHSOUS(IN). I'm
                      inclined to keep the Ethiopians, and find another solution, such as
                      that, if one is uncomfortable with simple transitional glue.

                      Bob Kraft, UPenn

                      Wyrick, Jed wrote:
                      > Dear Bob,
                      >
                      > I think you dismiss Andrew’s ingenious solution to the additional
                      > NOHSOUSIN too quickly; I’m not yet sure it’s correct, but mss evidence
                      > may be of little use here.  If one were to write AIQIOPSIN without a
                      > cross-hatch in the letter psi, one would be left with AIQIOUIN, an
                      > incomprehensible form that could be interpreted as an error for the
                      > (admittedly nonexistent active forms) AISQOUSIN or AISQHSOUSIN (the
                      > latter keeping the future tense of ESTAI earlier in the verse).  It
                      > seems to my mind entirely possible that such a form could have been
                      > “corrected” as a mistake for AISQHSONTAI and then glossed as NOHSOUSIN
                      > (which would have avoided the problem with the impossible active form of
                      > AISQANOMAI).  The phenomenon of AIQIOPSIN being re-introduced into a
                      > later ms. and co-existing with the gloss NOHSOUSIN would be an example
                      > of “interpretive overkill.”
                      >
                      > With regard to mss. evidence, there is no reason to assume that an
                      > obvious error (such as AIQIOUIN) would remain in existing manuscripts.
                      >  Scribes and editors often like correct(ed) texts!  
                      > In any event, I think that there is a burden to explain the origin of
                      > the additional words, whether they belong at the end of v.3 or the
                      > beginning of v.4.
                      > --JW
                      >
                      > --
                      > Jed Wyrick
                      > Associate Professor of Religious Studies
                      > Coordinator, Modern Jewish and Israel Studies
                      > California State University, Chico
                      > Chico, CA 95929-0740
                      > 530-898-6379
                      > jwyrick@... <mailto:jwyrick%40csuchico.edu>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----------------------------------------------------------
                      > *From: *Robert Kraft <kraft@... <mailto:kraft%40ccat.sas.upenn.edu> >
                      > *Reply-To: *<lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> >
                      > *Date: *Thu, 17 May 2007 12:50:59 -0400 (EDT)
                      > *To: *<lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> >
                      > *Subject: *Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                      >
                      > Not likely. I still have my Goettingen Isaiah open, and no MSS have
                      > trouble with "Ethiopians"
                      > in this context (two forms of the name occur in the subsequent verses).
                      > Why should it have
                      > presented any problems? Of course, the "added" words "and they will
                      > understand" could be
                      > understood as the start of the next verse -- "And they will understand
                      > that the king ...."
                      >
                      > Bob Kraft, UPenn
                      >
                      >  
                      >>  Dear Peter,
                      >>  Sorry I got into the discussion late.  "Ethiopians" is Aiqiopsin, which
                      >>  Sinaiticus and 393 didn't understand and interpreted it in the sense
                      >>  Aisqhsis "insight" and added "and they will understand" (aisqhsontai).
                      >>  Andrew Fincke
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>  >From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@... <mailto:papoutsis1%40yahoo.com> >
                      >>  >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                      >>  >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                      >>  >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                      >>  >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
                      >>  >
                      >>  >I wanted to to but I'm back to "Understand". Thanks for the help it was
                      >>  >greatly appriciated.
                      >>  >
                      >>  >Peter A. Papoutsis
                      >>  >
                      >>  >This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended
                      >>  >only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the
                      >>  >intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible
                      >>  >for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby
                      > that
                      >>  >any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly
                      > prohibited. If
                      >>  >you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately,
                      > return
                      >>  >the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your
                      >>  >system.
                      >>  >
                      >>  >
                      >>  >
                      >>  >----- Original Message ----
                      >>  >From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@... <mailto:mej1960%40yahoo.com> >
                      >>  >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                      >>  >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33:12 PM
                      >>  >Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                      >>  >
                      >>  >--- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
                      >>  > >
                      >>  > > Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
                      >>  >in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that occurs
                      >>  >at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
                      >>  >too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.
                      >>  >
                      >>  >That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols for
                      >>  >Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)
                      >>  >
                      >>  >But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
                      >>  >at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
                      >>  >ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
                      >>  >i.e.,
                      >>  >
                      >>  >they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
                      >>  >shall understand.
                      >>  >
                      >>  >Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
                      >>  >is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
                      >>  >the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
                      >>  >addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
                      >>  >presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.
                      >>  >
                      >>  > > Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
                      >>  >every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.
                      >>  >
                      >>  >I hope you do find this helpful.
                      >>  >
                      >>  >Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
                      >>  >'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
                      >>  >normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.
                      >>  >
                      >>  >[snip]
                      >>  >
                      >>  >
                      >>  >
                      >>  >
                      >>  >
                      >>  >
                      >>
                      >  >__________________________________________________________Ready
                      >
                      >>  >for the edge of your seat?
                      >>  >Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
                      >>  >http://tv.yahoo.com/
                      >>
                      >>  __________________________________________________________
                      >>  PC Magazine‚s 2007 editors‚ choice for best Web mail˜award-winning
                      > Windows
                      >>  Live Hotmail.
                      >>
                      > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 <http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&amp;ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507>  
                      > <http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 <http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&amp;ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507> >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>   
                      >>  Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                      > 227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                      > kraft@... <mailto:kraft%40ccat.sas.upenn.edu>
                      > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                       
                          
                    • andrew fincke
                      Dear Bob, You re undoubtedly right. But look at Isaiah 33:11. There LXX translates chashash (1QIsa-a: chashasha) with aisqhshqesqe you will understand and
                      Message 10 of 29 , May 17, 2007
                        Dear Bob,
                        You're undoubtedly right. But look at Isaiah 33:11. There LXX translates
                        chashash (1QIsa-a: chashasha) with aisqhshqesqe "you will understand" and
                        after that kash "stubble" with iscus "strength", which is nothing more than
                        a transcription of the Hebrew. If LXX had such a problem with a verse whose
                        Hebrew is seemly clear - "You will conceive fear, you will bear stubble -
                        your spirit - you will eat fire" -, simply because of two words chashash and
                        kash, it's not surprising that at 20:3 problems arose with kush (Ethiopia).
                        Maybe they read kush "Ethiopia" as bush "be ashamed" (kof and bet are
                        interchangeable in Herodian script) and confused Aiqiopsin with aisxunh
                        "shame". See verse 5.
                        Andrew Fincke


                        >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                        >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                        >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 17:25:21 -0400
                        >
                        >This one seems fairly clear, for various reasons:
                        >1. AIQIOY(IN) is not a strange term or spelling, and is found two more
                        >times in the immediate context. I appears several other times in LXX/OG
                        >materials, and almost certainly in a widely known proverb (along with
                        >the leopard and its spots). Why a copyist would have trouble with it is
                        >beyond me, especially in this context.
                        >2. NOHSOUSIN is appropriate for a context dealing with symbolism that
                        >needs to be understood. It did not originate with the scribe(s) of
                        >Sinaiticus, and makes good sense as a transition between the symbol
                        >(nude and barefooted Isaiah) and its meaning (the Assyrian devastation
                        >of Egypt and Ethiopia).
                        >3. If one needs a clever explanation of how the words arose, how about
                        >this: the subsequent reference to NEANISKOUS KAI PRESBUTAS (20.4)
                        >somehow got shortened to PRESBUTAS, so a marginal correction was
                        >inserted KAI NEANISKOUS which was misread as KAI NOHSOUS(IN). I'm
                        >inclined to keep the Ethiopians, and find another solution, such as
                        >that, if one is uncomfortable with simple transitional glue.
                        >
                        >Bob Kraft, UPenn
                        >
                        >Wyrick, Jed wrote:
                        > > Dear Bob,
                        > >
                        > > I think you dismiss Andrew���s ingenious solution to the additional
                        > > NOHSOUSIN too quickly; I���m not yet sure it���s correct, but mss
                        >evidence
                        > > may be of little use here. If one were to write AIQIOPSIN without a
                        > > cross-hatch in the letter psi, one would be left with AIQIOUIN, an
                        > > incomprehensible form that could be interpreted as an error for the
                        > > (admittedly nonexistent active forms) AISQOUSIN or AISQHSOUSIN (the
                        > > latter keeping the future tense of ESTAI earlier in the verse). It
                        > > seems to my mind entirely possible that such a form could have been
                        > > ���corrected��� as a mistake for AISQHSONTAI and then glossed as
                        >NOHSOUSIN
                        > > (which would have avoided the problem with the impossible active form of
                        > > AISQANOMAI). The phenomenon of AIQIOPSIN being re-introduced into a
                        > > later ms. and co-existing with the gloss NOHSOUSIN would be an example
                        > > of ���interpretive overkill.���
                        > >
                        > > With regard to mss. evidence, there is no reason to assume that an
                        > > obvious error (such as AIQIOUIN) would remain in existing manuscripts.
                        > > Scribes and editors often like correct(ed) texts!
                        > > In any event, I think that there is a burden to explain the origin of
                        > > the additional words, whether they belong at the end of v.3 or the
                        > > beginning of v.4.
                        > > --JW
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > Jed Wyrick
                        > > Associate Professor of Religious Studies
                        > > Coordinator, Modern Jewish and Israel Studies
                        > > California State University, Chico
                        > > Chico, CA 95929-0740
                        > > 530-898-6379
                        > > jwyrick@...
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > *From: *Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                        > > *Reply-To: *<lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > *Date: *Thu, 17 May 2007 12:50:59 -0400 (EDT)
                        > > *To: *<lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > *Subject: *Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                        > >
                        > > Not likely. I still have my Goettingen Isaiah open, and no MSS have
                        > > trouble with "Ethiopians"
                        > > in this context (two forms of the name occur in the subsequent verses).
                        > > Why should it have
                        > > presented any problems? Of course, the "added" words "and they will
                        > > understand" could be
                        > > understood as the start of the next verse -- "And they will understand
                        > > that the king ...."
                        > >
                        > > Bob Kraft, UPenn
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >> Dear Peter,
                        > >> Sorry I got into the discussion late. "Ethiopians" is Aiqiopsin,
                        >which
                        > >> Sinaiticus and 393 didn't understand and interpreted it in the sense
                        > >> Aisqhsis "insight" and added "and they will understand" (aisqhsontai).
                        > >> Andrew Fincke
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> >From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
                        > >> >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        > >> >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        > >> >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                        > >> >Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
                        > >> >
                        > >> >I wanted to to but I'm back to "Understand". Thanks for the help it
                        >was
                        > >> >greatly appriciated.
                        > >> >
                        > >> >Peter A. Papoutsis
                        > >> >
                        > >> >This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information
                        >intended
                        > >> >only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or
                        >the
                        > >> >intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent
                        >responsible
                        > >> >for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby
                        > > that
                        > >> >any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly
                        > > prohibited. If
                        > >> >you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately,
                        > > return
                        > >> >the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your
                        > >> >system.
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >----- Original Message ----
                        > >> >From: Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...>
                        > >> >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                        > >> >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 9:33:12 PM
                        > >> >Subject: [lxx] Re: Esaias Ch. 20:3 footnote in Rahlfs
                        > >> >
                        > >> >--- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@ ...> wrote:
                        > >> > >
                        > >> > > Ok so I was on the right track, but where does "KAI NOHSOUSIN" fit
                        > >> >in as an addition from Codex Sinaiticus? Is it an addition that
                        >occurs
                        > >> >at the very end of verse three (3) or after the phrase it was next
                        > >> >too. Rahlfs' not is not that clear to me.
                        > >> >
                        > >> >That is why I have long wished for an explanation of symbols for
                        > >> >Rahlf's of comparable clarity to that for NA26 and UBS4;)
                        > >> >
                        > >> >But that is how I understand Rahlf's 'fin.'; an addition that occurs
                        > >> >at the very end of verse three, so that the whole phrase reads:
                        > >> >ESTAI SHMEIA KAI TERATA TOIS AIGUPTIOIS KAI AIQIOYIN KAI NOHSOUSIN,
                        > >> >i.e.,
                        > >> >
                        > >> >they [the years] shall be signs and wonders to the Egyptians and they
                        > >> >shall understand.
                        > >> >
                        > >> >Now this reading sounds forced in a couple of ways: why, for example,
                        > >> >is it the years that are 'signs and wonders'? That is certainly not
                        > >> >the normal application of 'signs and wonders'. But since this is an
                        > >> >addition, so we need not expect perfect compatibility with the
                        > >> >presumed Vorlage, nor with the LXX translator's style.
                        > >> >
                        > >> > > Usually I'm pretty good at understanding them but I get stumped
                        > >> >every once in a while. Any help would be appreciated.
                        > >> >
                        > >> >I hope you do find this helpful.
                        > >> >
                        > >> >Finally, I notice in another response, you want to translate NOEW as
                        > >> >'believe'. I am not sure why you want to do this; PISTEUW is the
                        > >> >normal verb for this, as in Job 9:16 or Psa 26:13.
                        > >> >
                        > >> >[snip]
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
                        > >
                        > >> >for the edge of your seat?
                        > >> >Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
                        > >> >http://tv.yahoo.com/
                        > >>
                        > >> _________________________________________________________________
                        > >> PC Magazine���s 2007 editors��� choice for best Web
                        >mail��award-winning
                        > > Windows
                        > >> Live Hotmail.
                        > >>
                        > >
                        >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
                        > >
                        ><http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                        > > 227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                        > > kraft@...
                        > > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >

                        _________________________________________________________________
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                      • Bill Ross
                        Would it be inappropriate for me to say Kudos to you guys? You are the most focused list on the net! Bill Ross
                        Message 11 of 29 , May 17, 2007
                          Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are the
                          most focused list on the net!

                          Bill Ross
                        • andrew fincke
                          Dear Bill, Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It s A fire will eat you not you will eat fire . LXX with iskus strong apparently meant ish kush an
                          Message 12 of 29 , May 18, 2007
                            Dear Bill,
                            Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It's "A fire will eat you" not "you will
                            eat fire". LXX with iskus "strong" apparently meant 'ish kush "an Ethiopian
                            man". However, Targum is different - there is a midrash ending "my words
                            will destroy you as a whirlwind (does) with chaff". Must have been fun back
                            then, Bob, entering this stuff into the CATS database!
                            Andrew Fincke


                            >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                            >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                            >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                            >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                            >
                            >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are the
                            >most focused list on the net!
                            >
                            >Bill Ross
                            >

                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You�ll love Windows Live
                            Hotmail.
                            http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
                          • Robert Kraft
                            Yes, the translation of Isaiah is quite unusual, even among the heterogeneous collection of LXX/OG materials. There is a strong tendency to transliterate --
                            Message 13 of 29 , May 18, 2007
                              Yes, the translation of Isaiah is quite unusual, even among the heterogeneous collection of
                              LXX/OG materials. There is a strong tendency to transliterate -- SABAWQ is the best and most
                              frequent example, but there are several others (search for "{t}" in the CATSS Parallel Text
                              materials -- although everything is not marked yet, especially after ch. 40 --
                              http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par ).

                              As has often been pointed out, the translator or translators also resorted to the DOC- (doks-)
                              root for difficult passages. Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see the variety.

                              It was also a tendency of "Aquila" (or that "school") to find Greek equivalents that had
                              similar sounds to the Hebrew being rendered. Possibly hermeneutical moves towards "literalism"
                              in some parts of Judaism from early times were already at work in the translation of Isaiah. In
                              any event, the ISXUS of 33.11 might indeed be the product of some of these tendencies. The
                              Greek variant UBRIS ("Antiochene/Lucianic" witnesses) is an interesting attempt to make better
                              sense of the passage, as are the efforts of "Aquila, and Theodotion," who engage birth imagery
                              (presumably refelcting the Hebrew TLDW).

                              So the Greek Isaiah is fascinating, and as far as translation procedures are concerned, out of
                              line with most of the other Greek translations of which we know. Wonder who made it, where and
                              when?

                              Bob Kraft, UPenn

                              >
                              > Dear Bill,
                              > Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It's "A fire will eat you" not "you will
                              > eat fire". LXX with iskus "strong" apparently meant 'ish kush "an Ethiopian
                              > man". However, Targum is different - there is a midrash ending "my words
                              > will destroy you as a whirlwind (does) with chaff". Must have been fun back
                              > then, Bob, entering this stuff into the CATS database!
                              > Andrew Fincke
                              >
                              >
                              > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                              > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                              > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                              > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                              > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                              > >
                              > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are the
                              > >most focused list on the net!
                              > >
                              > >Bill Ross
                              > >
                              >
                              > _________________________________________________________________
                              > Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You�ll love Windows Live
                              > Hotmail.
                              > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              --
                              Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                              227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                              kraft@...
                              http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                            • andrew fincke
                              Dear Bob, You say Do a search for DOC and you will quickly see the variety . Do you have any quick tips for searching? I m a novice, and the link in your
                              Message 14 of 29 , May 19, 2007
                                Dear Bob,
                                You say "Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see the variety". Do
                                you have any quick tips for searching? I'm a novice, and the link in your
                                message wasn't searchable.
                                Andrew Fincke

                                >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah as a Translation
                                >Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 15:37:46 -0400 (EDT)
                                >
                                >Yes, the translation of Isaiah is quite unusual, even among the
                                >heterogeneous collection of
                                >LXX/OG materials. There is a strong tendency to transliterate -- SABAWQ is
                                >the best and most
                                >frequent example, but there are several others (search for "{t}" in the
                                >CATSS Parallel Text
                                >materials -- although everything is not marked yet, especially after ch. 40
                                >--
                                >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par
                                >).
                                >
                                >As has often been pointed out, the translator or translators also resorted
                                >to the DOC- (doks-)
                                >root for difficult passages. Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see
                                >the variety.
                                >
                                >It was also a tendency of "Aquila" (or that "school") to find Greek
                                >equivalents that had
                                >similar sounds to the Hebrew being rendered. Possibly hermeneutical moves
                                >towards "literalism"
                                >in some parts of Judaism from early times were already at work in the
                                >translation of Isaiah. In
                                >any event, the ISXUS of 33.11 might indeed be the product of some of these
                                >tendencies. The
                                >Greek variant UBRIS ("Antiochene/Lucianic" witnesses) is an interesting
                                >attempt to make better
                                >sense of the passage, as are the efforts of "Aquila, and Theodotion," who
                                >engage birth imagery
                                >(presumably refelcting the Hebrew TLDW).
                                >
                                >So the Greek Isaiah is fascinating, and as far as translation procedures
                                >are concerned, out of
                                >line with most of the other Greek translations of which we know. Wonder who
                                >made it, where and
                                >when?
                                >
                                >Bob Kraft, UPenn
                                >
                                > >
                                > > Dear Bill,
                                > > Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It's "A fire will eat you" not "you
                                >will
                                > > eat fire". LXX with iskus "strong" apparently meant 'ish kush "an
                                >Ethiopian
                                > > man". However, Targum is different - there is a midrash ending "my
                                >words
                                > > will destroy you as a whirlwind (does) with chaff". Must have been fun
                                >back
                                > > then, Bob, entering this stuff into the CATS database!
                                > > Andrew Fincke
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                > > >
                                > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are
                                >the
                                > > >most focused list on the net!
                                > > >
                                > > >Bill Ross
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > _________________________________________________________________
                                > > Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You���ll love Windows Live
                                > > Hotmail.
                                > >
                                >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >--
                                >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                >kraft@...
                                >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                _________________________________________________________________
                                Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
                                It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                              • Robert Kraft
                                I guess that it may depend on one s computer system (I m in Windows) and browser (I use FireFox or Netscape). But for what it s worth, here is the procedure
                                Message 15 of 29 , May 20, 2007
                                  I guess that it may depend on one's computer system (I'm in Windows) and
                                  browser (I use FireFox or Netscape). But for what it's worth, here is the
                                  procedure I'd use:

                                  (1) Access the desired file --
                                  http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par

                                  (2) Use the "find" or "search" feature (for me, in FireFox, CONTROL + F
                                  works, or from the "Edit" menu "Find in this page"; in Netscape similarly
                                  -- also specify "match case" and put DOC in caps)

                                  (3) This should find the occurrence in Isa 4.2, and repeating the find
                                  command will walk you through the file, identifying each occurrence. For
                                  more efficiency, particular forms (e.g. E)/NDOCOS ) can be located through
                                  the same procedures.

                                  (4) Interpreting the Hebrew column on the left may sometimes be a
                                  challenge if there is not obvious and direct correlation. Emanuel Tov and
                                  his students prepared the ParTxt files, and included conjectural
                                  retroversions (noted in parentheses) and other features as seemed
                                  appropriate to them. An updated version of these materials has been
                                  prepared by Frank Polak, in consultation with Emanuel Tov, but has not yet
                                  been loaded onto the CATSS site.

                                  Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS

                                  > Dear Bob,
                                  > You say "Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see the variety". Do
                                  > you have any quick tips for searching? I'm a novice, and the link in your
                                  > message wasn't searchable.
                                  > Andrew Fincke
                                  >
                                  > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                  > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah as a Translation
                                  > >Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 15:37:46 -0400 (EDT)
                                  > >
                                  > >Yes, the translation of Isaiah is quite unusual, even among the
                                  > >heterogeneous collection of
                                  > >LXX/OG materials. There is a strong tendency to transliterate -- SABAWQ is
                                  > >the best and most
                                  > >frequent example, but there are several others (search for "{t}" in the
                                  > >CATSS Parallel Text
                                  > >materials -- although everything is not marked yet, especially after ch. 40
                                  > >--
                                  > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par
                                  > >).
                                  > >
                                  > >As has often been pointed out, the translator or translators also resorted
                                  > >to the DOC- (doks-)
                                  > >root for difficult passages. Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see
                                  > >the variety.
                                  > >
                                  > >It was also a tendency of "Aquila" (or that "school") to find Greek
                                  > >equivalents that had
                                  > >similar sounds to the Hebrew being rendered. Possibly hermeneutical moves
                                  > >towards "literalism"
                                  > >in some parts of Judaism from early times were already at work in the
                                  > >translation of Isaiah. In
                                  > >any event, the ISXUS of 33.11 might indeed be the product of some of these
                                  > >tendencies. The
                                  > >Greek variant UBRIS ("Antiochene/Lucianic" witnesses) is an interesting
                                  > >attempt to make better
                                  > >sense of the passage, as are the efforts of "Aquila, and Theodotion," who
                                  > >engage birth imagery
                                  > >(presumably refelcting the Hebrew TLDW).
                                  > >
                                  > >So the Greek Isaiah is fascinating, and as far as translation procedures
                                  > >are concerned, out of
                                  > >line with most of the other Greek translations of which we know. Wonder who
                                  > >made it, where and
                                  > >when?
                                  > >
                                  > >Bob Kraft, UPenn
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Dear Bill,
                                  > > > Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It's "A fire will eat you" not "you
                                  > >will
                                  > > > eat fire". LXX with iskus "strong" apparently meant 'ish kush "an
                                  > >Ethiopian
                                  > > > man". However, Targum is different - there is a midrash ending "my
                                  > >words
                                  > > > will destroy you as a whirlwind (does) with chaff". Must have been fun
                                  > >back
                                  > > > then, Bob, entering this stuff into the CATS database!
                                  > > > Andrew Fincke
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                  > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                  > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are
                                  > >the
                                  > > > >most focused list on the net!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >Bill Ross
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > _________________________________________________________________
                                  > > > Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You���ll love Windows Live
                                  > > > Hotmail.
                                  > > >
                                  > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >--
                                  > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                  > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                  > >kraft@...
                                  > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > _________________________________________________________________
                                  > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
                                  > It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  --
                                  Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                  227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                  kraft@...
                                  http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                • andrew fincke
                                  Thanks. CONTROL+F works for me. Andrew Fincke ... _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more
                                  Message 16 of 29 , May 20, 2007
                                    Thanks. CONTROL+F works for me.
                                    Andrew Fincke


                                    >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                    >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah as a Translation
                                    >Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 12:02:21 -0400 (EDT)
                                    >
                                    >I guess that it may depend on one's computer system (I'm in Windows) and
                                    >browser (I use FireFox or Netscape). But for what it's worth, here is the
                                    >procedure I'd use:
                                    >
                                    >(1) Access the desired file --
                                    >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par
                                    >
                                    >(2) Use the "find" or "search" feature (for me, in FireFox, CONTROL + F
                                    >works, or from the "Edit" menu "Find in this page"; in Netscape similarly
                                    >-- also specify "match case" and put DOC in caps)
                                    >
                                    >(3) This should find the occurrence in Isa 4.2, and repeating the find
                                    >command will walk you through the file, identifying each occurrence. For
                                    >more efficiency, particular forms (e.g. E)/NDOCOS ) can be located through
                                    >the same procedures.
                                    >
                                    >(4) Interpreting the Hebrew column on the left may sometimes be a
                                    >challenge if there is not obvious and direct correlation. Emanuel Tov and
                                    >his students prepared the ParTxt files, and included conjectural
                                    >retroversions (noted in parentheses) and other features as seemed
                                    >appropriate to them. An updated version of these materials has been
                                    >prepared by Frank Polak, in consultation with Emanuel Tov, but has not yet
                                    >been loaded onto the CATSS site.
                                    >
                                    >Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS
                                    >
                                    > > Dear Bob,
                                    > > You say "Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly see the variety".
                                    >Do
                                    > > you have any quick tips for searching? I'm a novice, and the link in
                                    >your
                                    > > message wasn't searchable.
                                    > > Andrew Fincke
                                    > >
                                    > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                    > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah as a Translation
                                    > > >Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 15:37:46 -0400 (EDT)
                                    > > >
                                    > > >Yes, the translation of Isaiah is quite unusual, even among the
                                    > > >heterogeneous collection of
                                    > > >LXX/OG materials. There is a strong tendency to transliterate -- SABAWQ
                                    >is
                                    > > >the best and most
                                    > > >frequent example, but there are several others (search for "{t}" in the
                                    > > >CATSS Parallel Text
                                    > > >materials -- although everything is not marked yet, especially after
                                    >ch. 40
                                    > > >--
                                    > >
                                    > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/40.Isaiah.par
                                    > > >).
                                    > > >
                                    > > >As has often been pointed out, the translator or translators also
                                    >resorted
                                    > > >to the DOC- (doks-)
                                    > > >root for difficult passages. Do a search for "DOC" and you will quickly
                                    >see
                                    > > >the variety.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >It was also a tendency of "Aquila" (or that "school") to find Greek
                                    > > >equivalents that had
                                    > > >similar sounds to the Hebrew being rendered. Possibly hermeneutical
                                    >moves
                                    > > >towards "literalism"
                                    > > >in some parts of Judaism from early times were already at work in the
                                    > > >translation of Isaiah. In
                                    > > >any event, the ISXUS of 33.11 might indeed be the product of some of
                                    >these
                                    > > >tendencies. The
                                    > > >Greek variant UBRIS ("Antiochene/Lucianic" witnesses) is an interesting
                                    > > >attempt to make better
                                    > > >sense of the passage, as are the efforts of "Aquila, and Theodotion,"
                                    >who
                                    > > >engage birth imagery
                                    > > >(presumably refelcting the Hebrew TLDW).
                                    > > >
                                    > > >So the Greek Isaiah is fascinating, and as far as translation
                                    >procedures
                                    > > >are concerned, out of
                                    > > >line with most of the other Greek translations of which we know. Wonder
                                    >who
                                    > > >made it, where and
                                    > > >when?
                                    > > >
                                    > > >Bob Kraft, UPenn
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Dear Bill,
                                    > > > > Of course I erred at Iaiah 33:11. It's "A fire will eat you" not
                                    >"you
                                    > > >will
                                    > > > > eat fire". LXX with iskus "strong" apparently meant 'ish kush "an
                                    > > >Ethiopian
                                    > > > > man". However, Targum is different - there is a midrash ending "my
                                    > > >words
                                    > > > > will destroy you as a whirlwind (does) with chaff". Must have been
                                    >fun
                                    > > >back
                                    > > > > then, Bob, entering this stuff into the CATS database!
                                    > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                    > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                    > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You
                                    >are
                                    > > >the
                                    > > > > >most focused list on the net!
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >Bill Ross
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > _________________________________________________________________
                                    > > > > Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You���ll love Windows
                                    >Live
                                    > > > > Hotmail.
                                    > > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_outlook_0507
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >--
                                    > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                    > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                    > > >kraft@...
                                    > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > _________________________________________________________________
                                    > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
                                    > > It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >--
                                    >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                    >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                    >kraft@...
                                    >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    _________________________________________________________________
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                                  • andrew fincke
                                    But, Bob, why don t you just use BibleWorks? Andrew Fincke ... _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download
                                    Message 17 of 29 , May 21, 2007
                                      But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                                      Andrew Fincke


                                      >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                      >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                      >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                      >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                      >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                      >
                                      >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are the
                                      >most focused list on the net!
                                      >
                                      >Bill Ross
                                      >

                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
                                      It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                                    • Robert Kraft
                                      Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it supports, I might. But with these two observations: (1) For the casual user (which would
                                      Message 18 of 29 , May 21, 2007
                                        Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it supports, I might. But
                                        with these two observations:
                                        (1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on this list?), it is costly;
                                        (2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and which for other interested
                                        users are freely available.

                                        Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems such as the Isaiah issues
                                        we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar programs (Accordance, Logos,
                                        etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do not have such packages
                                        readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files, which are used by the
                                        aforementioned programs.

                                        Bob

                                        >
                                        > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                                        > Andrew Fincke
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                        > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                        > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                        > >
                                        > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are the
                                        > >most focused list on the net!
                                        > >
                                        > >Bill Ross
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > _________________________________________________________________
                                        > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i�m Initiative now.
                                        > It�s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >



                                        --
                                        Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                        227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                        kraft@...
                                        http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                      • andrew fincke
                                        Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint, whose one volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the Doktorvater of Theodore
                                        Message 19 of 29 , May 22, 2007
                                          Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint, whose one
                                          volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the Doktorvater of
                                          Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune off the
                                          Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He spent all
                                          his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all? Stop the
                                          press on the Festschrift!
                                          Andrew Fincke

                                          >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                          >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                          >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                          >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                          >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                                          >
                                          >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it
                                          >supports, I might. But
                                          >with these two observations:
                                          >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on this
                                          >list?), it is costly;
                                          >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and which for
                                          >other interested
                                          >users are freely available.
                                          >
                                          >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems such as
                                          >the Isaiah issues
                                          >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar programs
                                          >(Accordance, Logos,
                                          >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do not have
                                          >such packages
                                          >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files, which are
                                          >used by the
                                          >aforementioned programs.
                                          >
                                          >Bob
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                                          > > Andrew Fincke
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                          > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                          > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                          > > >
                                          > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are
                                          >the
                                          > > >most focused list on the net!
                                          > > >
                                          > > >Bill Ross
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > > _________________________________________________________________
                                          > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m Initiative
                                          >now.
                                          > > It���s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >--
                                          >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                          >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                          >kraft@...
                                          >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          _________________________________________________________________
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                                        • Robert Kraft
                                          Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn t mean to imply that I couldn t afford BibleWorks; I probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of
                                          Message 20 of 29 , May 22, 2007
                                            Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I couldn't afford BibleWorks; I
                                            probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the contract!). But yes, for
                                            what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research is on manuscript variants,
                                            and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary distributors" to incorporate
                                            into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy, Psalms, and Minor Prophets,
                                            but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research focus these days is the
                                            papyri collections at UPenn.

                                            I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn. Nowadays I spend my "spare"
                                            time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City NJ.

                                            Hooray for the grad students and their contributions! Unfortunately, it was easier to involve
                                            them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its wisdom required that all
                                            grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully funded, which restricted them to
                                            summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff goes entirely to pay them
                                            and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a yacht.

                                            There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first involving digital images and
                                            descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an actual book, and a genuine
                                            surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together to help finish the LXX/OG
                                            variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.

                                            So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and emendations can have a place in
                                            the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards they generate will serve to
                                            keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!

                                            Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)

                                            > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint, whose one
                                            > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the Doktorvater of
                                            > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune off the
                                            > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He spent all
                                            > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all? Stop the
                                            > press on the Festschrift!
                                            > Andrew Fincke
                                            >
                                            > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                            > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                            > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                                            > >
                                            > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it
                                            > >supports, I might. But
                                            > >with these two observations:
                                            > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on this
                                            > >list?), it is costly;
                                            > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and which for
                                            > >other interested
                                            > >users are freely available.
                                            > >
                                            > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems such as
                                            > >the Isaiah issues
                                            > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar programs
                                            > >(Accordance, Logos,
                                            > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do not have
                                            > >such packages
                                            > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files, which are
                                            > >used by the
                                            > >aforementioned programs.
                                            > >
                                            > >Bob
                                            > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                                            > > > Andrew Fincke
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                            > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                            > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You are
                                            > >the
                                            > > > >most focused list on the net!
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >Bill Ross
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > _________________________________________________________________
                                            > > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m Initiative
                                            > >now.
                                            > > > It���s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >--
                                            > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                            > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                            > >kraft@...
                                            > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > _________________________________________________________________
                                            > Catch suspicious messages before you open them�with Windows Live Hotmail.
                                            > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >



                                            --
                                            Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                            227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                            kraft@...
                                            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                          • andrew fincke
                                            Yeh, I m trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic text of Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now are hashing out,
                                            Message 21 of 29 , May 22, 2007
                                              Yeh, I'm trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic text of
                                              Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now are
                                              hashing out, into the program. I think the latter almost has a concordance
                                              done. But you're better informed than I. I suggested it in a BibleWorks
                                              forum but didn't get any bites. First things first, and for us that means
                                              the Peshitta OT, whose timing is in the hands of Leiden. Can the Fernandez
                                              Marcos-Busto Saiz editions of Antiochan Kings, Chronicles, Samuel be scanned
                                              in to a database? Of course then you'd have to morph them.
                                              Andrew Fincke


                                              >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                              >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                              >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                              >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:11:10 -0400 (EDT)
                                              >
                                              >Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I couldn't
                                              >afford BibleWorks; I
                                              >probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the
                                              >contract!). But yes, for
                                              >what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research is on
                                              >manuscript variants,
                                              >and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary
                                              >distributors" to incorporate
                                              >into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy, Psalms,
                                              >and Minor Prophets,
                                              >but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research focus
                                              >these days is the
                                              >papyri collections at UPenn.
                                              >
                                              >I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn. Nowadays I
                                              >spend my "spare"
                                              >time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City NJ.
                                              >
                                              >Hooray for the grad students and their contributions! Unfortunately, it was
                                              >easier to involve
                                              >them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its wisdom
                                              >required that all
                                              >grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully funded, which
                                              >restricted them to
                                              >summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff goes
                                              >entirely to pay them
                                              >and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a yacht.
                                              >
                                              >There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first involving
                                              >digital images and
                                              >descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an actual
                                              >book, and a genuine
                                              >surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together to help
                                              >finish the LXX/OG
                                              >variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.
                                              >
                                              >So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and emendations
                                              >can have a place in
                                              >the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards they
                                              >generate will serve to
                                              >keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!
                                              >
                                              >Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)
                                              >
                                              > > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint, whose
                                              >one
                                              > > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the Doktorvater
                                              >of
                                              > > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune off
                                              >the
                                              > > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He spent
                                              >all
                                              > > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all? Stop
                                              >the
                                              > > press on the Festschrift!
                                              > > Andrew Fincke
                                              > >
                                              > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                              > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                              > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                                              > > >
                                              > > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it
                                              > > >supports, I might. But
                                              > > >with these two observations:
                                              > > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on this
                                              > > >list?), it is costly;
                                              > > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and which
                                              >for
                                              > > >other interested
                                              > > >users are freely available.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems
                                              >such as
                                              > > >the Isaiah issues
                                              > > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar programs
                                              > > >(Accordance, Logos,
                                              > > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do not
                                              >have
                                              > > >such packages
                                              > > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files, which
                                              >are
                                              > > >used by the
                                              > > >aforementioned programs.
                                              > > >
                                              > > >Bob
                                              > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                                              > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                              > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                              > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You
                                              >are
                                              > > >the
                                              > > > > >most focused list on the net!
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >Bill Ross
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > _________________________________________________________________
                                              > > > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m
                                              >Initiative
                                              > > >now.
                                              > > > > It���s free.
                                              >http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >--
                                              > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                              > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                              > > >kraft@...
                                              > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > > _________________________________________________________________
                                              > > Catch suspicious messages before you open them�with Windows Live
                                              >Hotmail.
                                              > >
                                              >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >--
                                              >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                              >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                              >kraft@...
                                              >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >

                                              _________________________________________________________________
                                              More photos, more messages, more storage�get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
                                              http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
                                            • Robert Kraft
                                              You can access an early version of Bernard Taylor s encoding of 1-2 Samuel (1-2 Reigns) -- Antiochian text only -- on the CATSS site:
                                              Message 22 of 29 , May 22, 2007
                                                You can access an early version of Bernard Taylor's encoding of 1-2 Samuel (1-2 Reigns) --
                                                Antiochian text only -- on the CATSS site:

                                                http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/09-1Sam-Kgs.html
                                                http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/10-2Sam-Kgs.html

                                                Virginia Wayland is working on 1-2 Kings (3-4 Reigns), all published variants -- chapter by
                                                chapter (we still need to put the files together for easier searching):

                                                http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/11-1Kings01.html
                                                [etc.]

                                                The Samuel-Kings material is a textual quagmire, so having it available in a format that can be
                                                manipulated in various ways (e.g. recreating a specific MS, or searching for tendencies within
                                                the preserved witnesses) should prove productive in various ways, as it gets used.

                                                Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS

                                                >
                                                > Yeh, I'm trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic text of
                                                > Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now are
                                                > hashing out, into the program. I think the latter almost has a concordance
                                                > done. But you're better informed than I. I suggested it in a BibleWorks
                                                > forum but didn't get any bites. First things first, and for us that means
                                                > the Peshitta OT, whose timing is in the hands of Leiden. Can the Fernandez
                                                > Marcos-Busto Saiz editions of Antiochan Kings, Chronicles, Samuel be scanned
                                                > in to a database? Of course then you'd have to morph them.
                                                > Andrew Fincke
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                                > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:11:10 -0400 (EDT)
                                                > >
                                                > >Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I couldn't
                                                > >afford BibleWorks; I
                                                > >probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the
                                                > >contract!). But yes, for
                                                > >what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research is on
                                                > >manuscript variants,
                                                > >and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary
                                                > >distributors" to incorporate
                                                > >into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy, Psalms,
                                                > >and Minor Prophets,
                                                > >but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research focus
                                                > >these days is the
                                                > >papyri collections at UPenn.
                                                > >
                                                > >I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn. Nowadays I
                                                > >spend my "spare"
                                                > >time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City NJ.
                                                > >
                                                > >Hooray for the grad students and their contributions! Unfortunately, it was
                                                > >easier to involve
                                                > >them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its wisdom
                                                > >required that all
                                                > >grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully funded, which
                                                > >restricted them to
                                                > >summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff goes
                                                > >entirely to pay them
                                                > >and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a yacht.
                                                > >
                                                > >There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first involving
                                                > >digital images and
                                                > >descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an actual
                                                > >book, and a genuine
                                                > >surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together to help
                                                > >finish the LXX/OG
                                                > >variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.
                                                > >
                                                > >So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and emendations
                                                > >can have a place in
                                                > >the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards they
                                                > >generate will serve to
                                                > >keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!
                                                > >
                                                > >Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)
                                                > >
                                                > > > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint, whose
                                                > >one
                                                > > > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the Doktorvater
                                                > >of
                                                > > > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune off
                                                > >the
                                                > > > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He spent
                                                > >all
                                                > > > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all? Stop
                                                > >the
                                                > > > press on the Festschrift!
                                                > > > Andrew Fincke
                                                > > >
                                                > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                                > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research it
                                                > > > >supports, I might. But
                                                > > > >with these two observations:
                                                > > > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on this
                                                > > > >list?), it is costly;
                                                > > > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and which
                                                > >for
                                                > > > >other interested
                                                > > > >users are freely available.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems
                                                > >such as
                                                > > > >the Isaiah issues
                                                > > > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar programs
                                                > > > >(Accordance, Logos,
                                                > > > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do not
                                                > >have
                                                > > > >such packages
                                                > > > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files, which
                                                > >are
                                                > > > >used by the
                                                > > > >aforementioned programs.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >Bob
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                                                > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                                > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                                > > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys? You
                                                > >are
                                                > > > >the
                                                > > > > > >most focused list on the net!
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >Bill Ross
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
                                                > > > > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m
                                                > >Initiative
                                                > > > >now.
                                                > > > > > It���s free.
                                                > >http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >--
                                                > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                > > > >kraft@...
                                                > > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > _________________________________________________________________
                                                > > > Catch suspicious messages before you open them�with Windows Live
                                                > >Hotmail.
                                                > > >
                                                > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >--
                                                > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                > >kraft@...
                                                > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > _________________________________________________________________
                                                > More photos, more messages, more storage�get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail.
                                                > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >



                                                --
                                                Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                kraft@...
                                                http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                              • andrew fincke
                                                That s not an Antiochian text only but rather a Brooke-McLean text with the variants added. Fernandez Marcos - as I understand it - starts and ends with
                                                Message 23 of 29 , May 23, 2007
                                                  That's not an "Antiochian text only" but rather a Brooke-McLean text with
                                                  the variants added. Fernandez Marcos - as I understand it - starts and ends
                                                  with Antiochan. So that in BibleWorks I - not you since you never opened
                                                  the package - could have Vaticanus on top of Lucianic for comaparison, were
                                                  the Fernandez Marcos books encoded.
                                                  Andrew Fincke


                                                  >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                  >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >Subject: Re: [lxx] LXX/OG Variants [was BibleWorks ...]
                                                  >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:17:24 -0400 (EDT)
                                                  >
                                                  >You can access an early version of Bernard Taylor's encoding of 1-2 Samuel
                                                  >(1-2 Reigns) --
                                                  >Antiochian text only -- on the CATSS site:
                                                  >
                                                  >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/09-1Sam-Kgs.html
                                                  >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/10-2Sam-Kgs.html
                                                  >
                                                  >Virginia Wayland is working on 1-2 Kings (3-4 Reigns), all published
                                                  >variants -- chapter by
                                                  >chapter (we still need to put the files together for easier searching):
                                                  >
                                                  >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/11-1Kings01.html
                                                  >[etc.]
                                                  >
                                                  >The Samuel-Kings material is a textual quagmire, so having it available in
                                                  >a format that can be
                                                  >manipulated in various ways (e.g. recreating a specific MS, or searching
                                                  >for tendencies within
                                                  >the preserved witnesses) should prove productive in various ways, as it
                                                  >gets used.
                                                  >
                                                  >Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Yeh, I'm trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic text
                                                  >of
                                                  > > Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now are
                                                  > > hashing out, into the program. I think the latter almost has a
                                                  >concordance
                                                  > > done. But you're better informed than I. I suggested it in a
                                                  >BibleWorks
                                                  > > forum but didn't get any bites. First things first, and for us that
                                                  >means
                                                  > > the Peshitta OT, whose timing is in the hands of Leiden. Can the
                                                  >Fernandez
                                                  > > Marcos-Busto Saiz editions of Antiochan Kings, Chronicles, Samuel be
                                                  >scanned
                                                  > > in to a database? Of course then you'd have to morph them.
                                                  > > Andrew Fincke
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                  > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                                  > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:11:10 -0400 (EDT)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I
                                                  >couldn't
                                                  > > >afford BibleWorks; I
                                                  > > >probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the
                                                  > > >contract!). But yes, for
                                                  > > >what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research is on
                                                  > > >manuscript variants,
                                                  > > >and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary
                                                  > > >distributors" to incorporate
                                                  > > >into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy,
                                                  >Psalms,
                                                  > > >and Minor Prophets,
                                                  > > >but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research
                                                  >focus
                                                  > > >these days is the
                                                  > > >papyri collections at UPenn.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn.
                                                  >Nowadays I
                                                  > > >spend my "spare"
                                                  > > >time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City NJ.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >Hooray for the grad students and their contributions! Unfortunately, it
                                                  >was
                                                  > > >easier to involve
                                                  > > >them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its
                                                  >wisdom
                                                  > > >required that all
                                                  > > >grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully funded,
                                                  >which
                                                  > > >restricted them to
                                                  > > >summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff
                                                  >goes
                                                  > > >entirely to pay them
                                                  > > >and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a
                                                  >yacht.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first involving
                                                  > > >digital images and
                                                  > > >descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an
                                                  >actual
                                                  > > >book, and a genuine
                                                  > > >surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together to
                                                  >help
                                                  > > >finish the LXX/OG
                                                  > > >variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and
                                                  >emendations
                                                  > > >can have a place in
                                                  > > >the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards they
                                                  > > >generate will serve to
                                                  > > >keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint,
                                                  >whose
                                                  > > >one
                                                  > > > > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the
                                                  >Doktorvater
                                                  > > >of
                                                  > > > > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune
                                                  >off
                                                  > > >the
                                                  > > > > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He
                                                  >spent
                                                  > > >all
                                                  > > > > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all?
                                                  >Stop
                                                  > > >the
                                                  > > > > press on the Festschrift!
                                                  > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                  > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                                  > > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research
                                                  >it
                                                  > > > > >supports, I might. But
                                                  > > > > >with these two observations:
                                                  > > > > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on
                                                  >this
                                                  > > > > >list?), it is costly;
                                                  > > > > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and
                                                  >which
                                                  > > >for
                                                  > > > > >other interested
                                                  > > > > >users are freely available.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems
                                                  > > >such as
                                                  > > > > >the Isaiah issues
                                                  > > > > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar
                                                  >programs
                                                  > > > > >(Accordance, Logos,
                                                  > > > > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do
                                                  >not
                                                  > > >have
                                                  > > > > >such packages
                                                  > > > > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files,
                                                  >which
                                                  > > >are
                                                  > > > > >used by the
                                                  > > > > >aforementioned programs.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >Bob
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                                                  > > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                                  > > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                                  > > > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys?
                                                  >You
                                                  > > >are
                                                  > > > > >the
                                                  > > > > > > >most focused list on the net!
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >Bill Ross
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  >_________________________________________________________________
                                                  > > > > > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m
                                                  > > >Initiative
                                                  > > > > >now.
                                                  > > > > > > It���s free.
                                                  > > >http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >--
                                                  > > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                  > > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                  > > > > >kraft@...
                                                  > > > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > _________________________________________________________________
                                                  > > > > Catch suspicious messages before you open them���with Windows Live
                                                  > > >Hotmail.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >--
                                                  > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                  > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                  > > >kraft@...
                                                  > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > _________________________________________________________________
                                                  > > More photos, more messages, more storage���get 2GB with Windows Live
                                                  >Hotmail.
                                                  > >
                                                  >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >--
                                                  >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                  >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                  >kraft@...
                                                  >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >

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                                                • Robert Kraft
                                                  Correct. I meant that Bernard Taylor had encoded only the supposed Antiochian variants (boc2e2), against the base text of B (Vaticanus) as presented in
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , May 23, 2007
                                                    Correct. I meant that Bernard Taylor had encoded only the supposed Antiochian variants
                                                    (boc2e2), against the base text of B (Vaticanus) as presented in Brooke-McLean. Sorry for any
                                                    disclarity. This sounds like what you envision, although I suspect that Fernandez Marcos has
                                                    gone beyond merely the preserved variants to produce his text. But I don't know. I'm only
                                                    lurking.

                                                    Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS


                                                    > That's not an "Antiochian text only" but rather a Brooke-McLean text with
                                                    > the variants added. Fernandez Marcos - as I understand it - starts and ends
                                                    > with Antiochan. So that in BibleWorks I - not you since you never opened
                                                    > the package - could have Vaticanus on top of Lucianic for comaparison, were
                                                    > the Fernandez Marcos books encoded.
                                                    > Andrew Fincke
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                    > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > >Subject: Re: [lxx] LXX/OG Variants [was BibleWorks ...]
                                                    > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:17:24 -0400 (EDT)
                                                    > >
                                                    > >You can access an early version of Bernard Taylor's encoding of 1-2 Samuel
                                                    > >(1-2 Reigns) --
                                                    > >Antiochian text only -- on the CATSS site:
                                                    > >
                                                    > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/09-1Sam-Kgs.html
                                                    > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/10-2Sam-Kgs.html
                                                    > >
                                                    > >Virginia Wayland is working on 1-2 Kings (3-4 Reigns), all published
                                                    > >variants -- chapter by
                                                    > >chapter (we still need to put the files together for easier searching):
                                                    > >
                                                    > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/11-1Kings01.html
                                                    > >[etc.]
                                                    > >
                                                    > >The Samuel-Kings material is a textual quagmire, so having it available in
                                                    > >a format that can be
                                                    > >manipulated in various ways (e.g. recreating a specific MS, or searching
                                                    > >for tendencies within
                                                    > >the preserved witnesses) should prove productive in various ways, as it
                                                    > >gets used.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS
                                                    > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Yeh, I'm trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic text
                                                    > >of
                                                    > > > Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now are
                                                    > > > hashing out, into the program. I think the latter almost has a
                                                    > >concordance
                                                    > > > done. But you're better informed than I. I suggested it in a
                                                    > >BibleWorks
                                                    > > > forum but didn't get any bites. First things first, and for us that
                                                    > >means
                                                    > > > the Peshitta OT, whose timing is in the hands of Leiden. Can the
                                                    > >Fernandez
                                                    > > > Marcos-Busto Saiz editions of Antiochan Kings, Chronicles, Samuel be
                                                    > >scanned
                                                    > > > in to a database? Of course then you'd have to morph them.
                                                    > > > Andrew Fincke
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                    > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                                    > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:11:10 -0400 (EDT)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I
                                                    > >couldn't
                                                    > > > >afford BibleWorks; I
                                                    > > > >probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the
                                                    > > > >contract!). But yes, for
                                                    > > > >what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research is on
                                                    > > > >manuscript variants,
                                                    > > > >and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary
                                                    > > > >distributors" to incorporate
                                                    > > > >into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy,
                                                    > >Psalms,
                                                    > > > >and Minor Prophets,
                                                    > > > >but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research
                                                    > >focus
                                                    > > > >these days is the
                                                    > > > >papyri collections at UPenn.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn.
                                                    > >Nowadays I
                                                    > > > >spend my "spare"
                                                    > > > >time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City NJ.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >Hooray for the grad students and their contributions! Unfortunately, it
                                                    > >was
                                                    > > > >easier to involve
                                                    > > > >them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its
                                                    > >wisdom
                                                    > > > >required that all
                                                    > > > >grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully funded,
                                                    > >which
                                                    > > > >restricted them to
                                                    > > > >summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff
                                                    > >goes
                                                    > > > >entirely to pay them
                                                    > > > >and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a
                                                    > >yacht.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first involving
                                                    > > > >digital images and
                                                    > > > >descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an
                                                    > >actual
                                                    > > > >book, and a genuine
                                                    > > > >surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together to
                                                    > >help
                                                    > > > >finish the LXX/OG
                                                    > > > >variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and
                                                    > >emendations
                                                    > > > >can have a place in
                                                    > > > >the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards they
                                                    > > > >generate will serve to
                                                    > > > >keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized Septuagint,
                                                    > >whose
                                                    > > > >one
                                                    > > > > > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the
                                                    > >Doktorvater
                                                    > > > >of
                                                    > > > > > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a fortune
                                                    > >off
                                                    > > > >the
                                                    > > > > > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say? He
                                                    > >spent
                                                    > > > >all
                                                    > > > > > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all?
                                                    > >Stop
                                                    > > > >the
                                                    > > > > > press on the Festschrift!
                                                    > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                    > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                                    > > > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of research
                                                    > >it
                                                    > > > > > >supports, I might. But
                                                    > > > > > >with these two observations:
                                                    > > > > > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others on
                                                    > >this
                                                    > > > > > >list?), it is costly;
                                                    > > > > > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand, and
                                                    > >which
                                                    > > > >for
                                                    > > > > > >other interested
                                                    > > > > > >users are freely available.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple problems
                                                    > > > >such as
                                                    > > > > > >the Isaiah issues
                                                    > > > > > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar
                                                    > >programs
                                                    > > > > > >(Accordance, Logos,
                                                    > > > > > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who do
                                                    > >not
                                                    > > > >have
                                                    > > > > > >such packages
                                                    > > > > > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT files,
                                                    > >which
                                                    > > > >are
                                                    > > > > > >used by the
                                                    > > > > > >aforementioned programs.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >Bob
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                                                    > > > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                                    > > > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > > > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                                    > > > > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you guys?
                                                    > >You
                                                    > > > >are
                                                    > > > > > >the
                                                    > > > > > > > >most focused list on the net!
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >Bill Ross
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > >_________________________________________________________________
                                                    > > > > > > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m
                                                    > > > >Initiative
                                                    > > > > > >now.
                                                    > > > > > > > It���s free.
                                                    > > > >http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >--
                                                    > > > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                    > > > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                    > > > > > >kraft@...
                                                    > > > > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
                                                    > > > > > Catch suspicious messages before you open them���with Windows Live
                                                    > > > >Hotmail.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_protection_0507
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >--
                                                    > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                    > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                    > > > >kraft@...
                                                    > > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > _________________________________________________________________
                                                    > > > More photos, more messages, more storage���get 2GB with Windows Live
                                                    > >Hotmail.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >--
                                                    > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                    > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                    > >kraft@...
                                                    > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > _________________________________________________________________
                                                    > PC Magazine�s 2007 editors� choice for best Web mail�award-winning Windows
                                                    > Live Hotmail.
                                                    > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
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                                                    --
                                                    Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                    227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                    kraft@...
                                                    http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                  • andrew fincke
                                                    Now you ve lost me. If Taylor has a text of Lucianic 1 Samuel - see his The Lucianic Manuscripts of 1 Reigns, 1992 - then why doesn t he give it over to
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , May 23, 2007
                                                      Now you've lost me. If Taylor has a text of Lucianic 1 Samuel - see his The
                                                      Lucianic Manuscripts of 1 Reigns, 1992 - then why doesn't he give it over to
                                                      BibleWorks for inclusion with their multitudinous Bible translations? Or is
                                                      it the fault of BibleWorks - Lucianic too specialized, not complete Bible,
                                                      etc.? But then why is Natalio hiring a team and investing twenty years in
                                                      getting the Antiochan text in print plus concordance? Somewhere the
                                                      communication has broken down.
                                                      Andrew Fincke


                                                      >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                      >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >Subject: Re: [lxx] LXX/OG Variants [was BibleWorks ...]
                                                      >Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:08:34 -0400 (EDT)
                                                      >
                                                      >Correct. I meant that Bernard Taylor had encoded only the supposed
                                                      >Antiochian variants
                                                      >(boc2e2), against the base text of B (Vaticanus) as presented in
                                                      >Brooke-McLean. Sorry for any
                                                      >disclarity. This sounds like what you envision, although I suspect that
                                                      >Fernandez Marcos has
                                                      >gone beyond merely the preserved variants to produce his text. But I don't
                                                      >know. I'm only
                                                      >lurking.
                                                      >
                                                      >Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > > That's not an "Antiochian text only" but rather a Brooke-McLean text
                                                      >with
                                                      > > the variants added. Fernandez Marcos - as I understand it - starts and
                                                      >ends
                                                      > > with Antiochan. So that in BibleWorks I - not you since you never
                                                      >opened
                                                      > > the package - could have Vaticanus on top of Lucianic for comaparison,
                                                      >were
                                                      > > the Fernandez Marcos books encoded.
                                                      > > Andrew Fincke
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                      > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] LXX/OG Variants [was BibleWorks ...]
                                                      > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 21:17:24 -0400 (EDT)
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >You can access an early version of Bernard Taylor's encoding of 1-2
                                                      >Samuel
                                                      > > >(1-2 Reigns) --
                                                      > > >Antiochian text only -- on the CATSS site:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/09-1Sam-Kgs.html
                                                      > >
                                                      > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/10-2Sam-Kgs.html
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >Virginia Wayland is working on 1-2 Kings (3-4 Reigns), all published
                                                      > > >variants -- chapter by
                                                      > > >chapter (we still need to put the files together for easier searching):
                                                      > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/lxxvar/2Historical/11-1Kings01.html
                                                      > > >[etc.]
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >The Samuel-Kings material is a textual quagmire, so having it available
                                                      >in
                                                      > > >a format that can be
                                                      > > >manipulated in various ways (e.g. recreating a specific MS, or
                                                      >searching
                                                      > > >for tendencies within
                                                      > > >the preserved witnesses) should prove productive in various ways, as it
                                                      > > >gets used.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >Bob Kraft, UPenn and CATSS
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > Yeh, I'm trying to get them (Rick Gross at BW) to put the Lucianic
                                                      >text
                                                      > > >of
                                                      > > > > Samuel-Kings-Chronicles that Taylor then and Fernandez Marcos now
                                                      >are
                                                      > > > > hashing out, into the program. I think the latter almost has a
                                                      > > >concordance
                                                      > > > > done. But you're better informed than I. I suggested it in a
                                                      > > >BibleWorks
                                                      > > > > forum but didn't get any bites. First things first, and for us that
                                                      > > >means
                                                      > > > > the Peshitta OT, whose timing is in the hands of Leiden. Can the
                                                      > > >Fernandez
                                                      > > > > Marcos-Busto Saiz editions of Antiochan Kings, Chronicles, Samuel be
                                                      > > >scanned
                                                      > > > > in to a database? Of course then you'd have to morph them.
                                                      > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                      > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                                      > > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:11:10 -0400 (EDT)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >Ah, the paradoxicality of it all! I didn't mean to imply that I
                                                      > > >couldn't
                                                      > > > > >afford BibleWorks; I
                                                      > > > > >probably have a gratis copy of it on hand in any event (part of the
                                                      > > > > >contract!). But yes, for
                                                      > > > > >what it does I'd be a "casual user" since my main LXX/OG research
                                                      >is on
                                                      > > > > >manuscript variants,
                                                      > > > > >and those materials are not yet fully ready for the "secondary
                                                      > > > > >distributors" to incorporate
                                                      > > > > >into their packages (they could start with Genesis, Deuteronomy,
                                                      > > >Psalms,
                                                      > > > > >and Minor Prophets,
                                                      > > > > >but so far have not chosen to do so). Otherwise, my main research
                                                      > > >focus
                                                      > > > > >these days is the
                                                      > > > > >papyri collections at UPenn.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >I've been to the Palestra once or twice in my 44 years at UPenn.
                                                      > > >Nowadays I
                                                      > > > > >spend my "spare"
                                                      > > > > >time at grandkids sporting events, and at our place in Ocean City
                                                      >NJ.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >Hooray for the grad students and their contributions!
                                                      >Unfortunately, it
                                                      > > >was
                                                      > > > > >easier to involve
                                                      > > > > >them in "slave labor" in the old days, before the University in its
                                                      > > >wisdom
                                                      > > > > >required that all
                                                      > > > > >grad students admitted to the program would have to be fully
                                                      >funded,
                                                      > > >which
                                                      > > > > >restricted them to
                                                      > > > > >summers for such project work. The "fortune" made from LXX/OG stuff
                                                      > > >goes
                                                      > > > > >entirely to pay them
                                                      > > > > >and/or to improve the data in other ways. I don't have time for a
                                                      > > >yacht.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >There have been two Festschrift-type presentations: the first
                                                      >involving
                                                      > > > > >digital images and
                                                      > > > > >descriptions of one of the UPenn papyri collections, the second an
                                                      > > >actual
                                                      > > > > >book, and a genuine
                                                      > > > > >surprise. It is enough, unless a bunch of you want to get together
                                                      >to
                                                      > > >help
                                                      > > > > >finish the LXX/OG
                                                      > > > > >variants project, which I hope to see completed before I expire.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >So carry on reassured, Andrew. Your convincing conjectures and
                                                      > > >emendations
                                                      > > > > >can have a place in
                                                      > > > > >the expandable digital variants files, and the financial rewards
                                                      >they
                                                      > > > > >generate will serve to
                                                      > > > > >keep the ball rolling for future generations of serious users!
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >Bob (with a broad, but serious, grin)
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > Did I read correctly? The father of the computerized
                                                      >Septuagint,
                                                      > > >whose
                                                      > > > > >one
                                                      > > > > > > volume Hatch-Redpath revolutionized Septuagint studies, the
                                                      > > >Doktorvater
                                                      > > > > >of
                                                      > > > > > > Theodore Bergren, is a "casual user"?. The man who made a
                                                      >fortune
                                                      > > >off
                                                      > > > > >the
                                                      > > > > > > Septuagint can't afford BibleWorks? Is it true what they say?
                                                      >He
                                                      > > >spent
                                                      > > > > >all
                                                      > > > > > > his time at the Palestra, and the graduate students did it all?
                                                      > > >Stop
                                                      > > > > >the
                                                      > > > > > > press on the Festschrift!
                                                      > > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
                                                      > > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > > > > > >To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] BibleWorks [was Isaiah 20.3 variant]
                                                      > > > > > > >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >Interesting question. Perhaps if I were doing the sorts of
                                                      >research
                                                      > > >it
                                                      > > > > > > >supports, I might. But
                                                      > > > > > > >with these two observations:
                                                      > > > > > > >(1) For the casual user (which would be me, and perhaps others
                                                      >on
                                                      > > >this
                                                      > > > > > > >list?), it is costly;
                                                      > > > > > > >(2) It uses CATSS/CCAT materials which I have ready to hand,
                                                      >and
                                                      > > >which
                                                      > > > > >for
                                                      > > > > > > >other interested
                                                      > > > > > > >users are freely available.
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >Thus I point people to the CATSS/CCAT materials for simple
                                                      >problems
                                                      > > > > >such as
                                                      > > > > > > >the Isaiah issues
                                                      > > > > > > >we were discussing. Presumably users of BibleWorks or similar
                                                      > > >programs
                                                      > > > > > > >(Accordance, Logos,
                                                      > > > > > > >etc.) can get at the same data in their own way, and people who
                                                      >do
                                                      > > >not
                                                      > > > > >have
                                                      > > > > > > >such packages
                                                      > > > > > > >readily available can do simple checking in the CATSS/CCAT
                                                      >files,
                                                      > > >which
                                                      > > > > >are
                                                      > > > > > > >used by the
                                                      > > > > > > >aforementioned programs.
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >Bob
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > But, Bob, why don't you just use BibleWorks?
                                                      > > > > > > > > Andrew Fincke
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > >From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
                                                      > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > > > > > > > >To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Isaiah 20.3 variant
                                                      > > > > > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 20:08:40 -0500
                                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > >Would it be inappropriate for me to say "Kudos" to you
                                                      >guys?
                                                      > > >You
                                                      > > > > >are
                                                      > > > > > > >the
                                                      > > > > > > > > >most focused list on the net!
                                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > >Bill Ross
                                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > >_________________________________________________________________
                                                      > > > > > > > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i���m
                                                      > > > > >Initiative
                                                      > > > > > > >now.
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                                                      > > > > >http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_MAY07
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                                                      > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >--
                                                      > > > > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                      > > > > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                      > > > > > > >kraft@...
                                                      > > > > > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                      > > > > > > Catch suspicious messages before you open them���with Windows
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                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >--
                                                      > > > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                      > > > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                      > > > > >kraft@...
                                                      > > > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      > > > > >
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                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > _________________________________________________________________
                                                      > > > > More photos, more messages, more storage���get 2GB with Windows Live
                                                      > > >Hotmail.
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                                                      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >--
                                                      > > >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                      > > >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                      > > >kraft@...
                                                      > > >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      > > >
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                                                      > > _________________________________________________________________
                                                      > > PC Magazine�s 2007 editors� choice for best Web mail�award-winning
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                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >--
                                                      >Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                                                      >227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                                                      >kraft@...
                                                      >http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >

                                                      _________________________________________________________________
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