Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [lxx] OT - Johannine coma in Eastern Orthodox NT

Expand Messages
  • spuluka@hotmail.com
    Dear Will, While the Byzantine text form does contain the Johannine comma text, you may be interested to know that we do not have this reading in our
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 12, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Will,

      While the Byzantine text form does contain the Johannine comma text, you may
      be interested to know that we do not have this reading in our lectionary.
      This is a notable hole in a lectionary that covers the vast majority of the
      New Testament every year.

      We read sections from 1 John, all of 2 and 3 during the prepartion period
      for the Great Fast. But 1 John 5:7 is not among the readings. No pericope
      from Revelation is part of the lectionary as well.

      Steve Puluka
      Cantor Holy Ghost Church
      Mckees Rocks PA


      >From: "Bill W. Rodgers" <billfred@...>
      >Reply-To: lxx@egroups.com
      >To: lxx@egroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [lxx] OT - Johannine coma in Eastern Orthodox NT
      >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:51:33 -0500
      >
      >To Will Pratt: Yes, Will, the Orthodox NT does include the additional text
      >in I
      >John 5:7 beginning with "en tw ouranw..."
      >
      >Bill R.
      >
      >Will Pratt wrote:
      >
      > > This is a bit off topic, but I know that we have a high density of
      >Eastern
      > > Orthodox communicants on this list. Does the Greek New Testament text
      >used
      > > by the E Orthodox church contain the so-called Johannine Coma, that is,
      >does
      > > 1 John 5:7 read "oti treiv eisin oi marturountev", or does it include
      >the
      > > additional text "en tw ouranw o pathr o logov kai to agion pneuma kai
      >outoi
      > > oi treiv en eisin"?
      > >
      > > Thanks
      > >
      > > Will
      > >
      > > --
      > > William L. Pratt, Ph.D., Curator of Invertebrates, Barrick Museum
      > > Mail Stop 4012, Univ. Nevada, Las Vegas 89154-4012
      > > (702) 895-1403; Fax (702) 895-3094; prattw@...
      >
      >
      >
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
    • Will Pratt
      ... Steve, That is very interesting. As I expect you know, no ms of the Alexandrian text form includes the comma, and no Byzantine ms earlier than the 12th
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 12, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        > From: spuluka@... [mailto:spuluka@...]
        > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:33 AM
        > Dear Will,

        > While the Byzantine text form does contain the Johannine
        > comma text, you may
        > be interested to know that we do not have this reading in
        > our lectionary.
        > This is a notable hole in a lectionary that covers the vast
        > majority of the
        > New Testament every year.

        Steve,

        That is very interesting. As I expect you know, no ms of the
        Alexandrian text form includes the comma, and no Byzantine ms earlier
        than the 12th century,a nd only 6 (or maybe 8) total. Only three mss
        contain the comma in the text rather than margin, and those are all
        16th century, written after Erasmus' firat editon of the so-called
        Textus Receptus was publisehd without it. (This is a fact which
        KJV-only, TR advocates find unpalatable.) It sounds as if your
        lectionary was written back in the days when the E Orthodox church was
        dependent on the mss.

        Thanks for the information,

        Will

        Will Pratt
        prattw@...
      • Steven Craig Miller
        To: Steve Puluka, Is there one official Byzantine Greek edition of the Bible for
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 13, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          To: Steve Puluka,

          << ... the Byzantine text form does contain the Johannine comma text ... >>

          Is there one official "Byzantine" Greek edition of the Bible for Orthodox
          Christians? Or are there many different Orthodox Greek editions with
          variations on the text? Also, is the LXX the official "Old Testament" for
          Orthodox Christians?

          -Steven Craig Miller
          Alton, Illinois (USA)
          E-mail: stevencraigmiller@...
        • Talmid Ben
          ... Not for me personally. I think a critical edition, based on the BEST textual witness of all the texts, from the DSS, to the LXX to the MT, should be
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 13, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            >  Also, is the LXX the official "Old Testament" for
            > Orthodox Christians?

            Not for me personally. I think a critical edition, based on the BEST textual
            witness of all the texts, from the DSS, to the LXX to the MT, should be
            considered, and a critical edition be rendered from the best TEXTUAL witness
            available, and even so, the variance in many textual traditions, especially in
            the 2nd Temple era, leads one to conclude that there can really be no
            "official" text, but we must take all of the info into consideration, etc.
            -
            TalmidBenjamin
            webservant
            http://www.MessianicArt.com/

            Troubled by an "Anti-Missionary"? CHAZAK! (Be Strong!)
            Chazak, Counter-Anti-Missionary Organization
            http://www.MessianicArt.com/chazak.htm
            or
            http://www.chazak.org/
             
          • St. Tikhon's Sem Libr
            We checked a number of Church Slavonic and Russian Bibles in our library printed from the 1870s on and found that they all have the Johannine comma. But a
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 15, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              We checked a number of Church Slavonic and Russian Bibles in our
              library printed from the 1870s on and found that they all have the
              Johannine comma.

              But a Pochaev edition issued in 1785 does not have the comma.

              As for Greek Bibles from Greece that are printed with the sanction of
              the Church of Greece, I have seen one 20th cent. Greek edition from
              Greece that has the comma, and another one that has it, but in italics.





              Juvenaly, Asst. Librarian
              St. Patriarch Tikhon Library
              St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary
              Box 130 / St Tikhon's Road / So Canaan PA 18459-0130 USA
              570-937-3209, "-3103, or "-4411 ext 21
              fax 570-937-3209; if no answer 570-937-3100
              http://www.stots.edu/library.html
              library@...
            • Kevin Holsapple
              Can anyone on this list recommend a University or Seminary where LXX studies are a specialty, or at least an important part of the curriculum? Kevin Holsapple
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 15, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Can anyone on this list recommend a University or Seminary where LXX
                studies are a specialty, or at least an important part of the curriculum?

                Kevin Holsapple
                -----------------------------------------------------
                Click here for Free Video!!
                http://www.gohip.com/free_video/
              • spuluka@hotmail.com
                ... There is no central ruling authority for such matters in the Christian East. Basically, each self-governing Orthodox jurisdiction does as they see best for
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 15, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  >From: Steven Craig Miller <stevencraigmiller@...>
                  >
                  >Is there one official "Byzantine" Greek edition of the Bible for Orthodox
                  >Christians? Or are there many different Orthodox
                  >Greek editions with variations on the text? Also, is the LXX the official
                  >"Old Testament" for Orthodox Christians?

                  There is no central ruling authority for such matters in the Christian East.
                  Basically, each self-governing Orthodox jurisdiction does as they see best
                  for their own Church. But many of the independant Orthodox jurisdictions
                  are dependant on the Greek Orthodox community for our texts, both liturgical
                  and Biblical. When those of us from Slavic countries translate scripture or
                  liturgy we must choose to use either the Church Slavonic or the Greek as the
                  language to come into our native language (English in my case.) Our
                  liturgical commission translates from the Greek with reference to the
                  Slavonic. If there is more than one way to interpret the Greek text we
                  follow the way that the Church Slavonic translated the text. There are some
                  occasions when the Church Slavonic differs from the Greek. In those cases
                  they make a case by case determination on which to follow.

                  My comments in my first post reflect the outcome of a brief look at the
                  Johannine coma issue by myself, a seminarian and seminary professor, not an
                  in-depth research of the issue. After seeing Will's follow-up post over the
                  weekend I dug around my parish library and cantors stand and can see that
                  the issue is far from clear.

                  In contrast to Bill Rodgers experience, we have a Slovak 17th century bible
                  translation that does not include the text. Bill, what New Testement
                  translation do you have with the text?

                  And in contrast to myself, we have a 1950's English lectionary that does
                  have the text. I was not able to lay my hands on a Church Slavonic
                  Lectionary to confirm our original observation. I'll try to do that at our
                  Seminary library.

                  In short, if the question is do the Orthodox Churches accept the Johannine
                  comma text as part of scripture, the answer may have to be on a case by case
                  basis.

                  As far as the Septuagint text is concerned, there was a synod of Bishops in
                  Jerusalem in 1672 that offcially accepted the Septuagint Old Testament over
                  the Hebrew. Before the Reformation there was never any question in
                  Orthodoxy on the issue. After the Reformation the Patriach of
                  Constantinople fell into heresy (from the perspective of the Orthodox
                  Church) in accepting many of the premises of Protestant reformation
                  theology. One of those was Hebrew as the Old Testament version. The Synod
                  spoke against that Patriarchal announcement. But Orthodoxy was not then,
                  and is not now, very concerned with text critical matters in this regard.
                  In fact, you will find a fair degree of variance among Orthodox
                  jurisdictions as to the content of the Old Testament canon, much less the
                  text critical aspect of that content.

                  I am not aware of ANY real text critical scholars from the Orthodox world.
                  If we approach the question at all it is usually in the form of an
                  apologetic to defend the received text against what we see as critical
                  excesses. A telling example of this is the LXX.org project to adjust the
                  NKJV translation to the readings of the Septuagint. There was a serious
                  argument made in the Orthodox publication, St. Vladimirs Theological
                  Quarterly, that one should not be translating Old Testament without ANY
                  reference to the Hebrew. It seems that the translators of LXX.org do not
                  have any Hebrew language ability and are not making any reference to the
                  Hebrew version of scripture in working on their adjustment translation. The
                  counter argument is that Greek is the liturgical and scriptural language of
                  the Church and the Hebrew version is irrelevant to the translation.
                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                • Tyler F. Williams
                  As far as Canada is concerned, Toronto used to be one of the best (IMHO!), but with recent retirements, etc., it really doesn t offer much anymore. Trinity
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 15, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    As far as Canada is concerned, Toronto used to be one of the best (IMHO!), but with
                    recent retirements, etc., it really doesn't offer much anymore.

                    Trinity Western University, Langley, Canada, is toying with starting some sort of LXX
                    program. It would only be undergrad and perhaps a MA. (TWU has a couple good LXX
                    scholars, Rob Hiebert and Peter Flint).


                    -Tyler
                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Tyler F. Williams
                    Assistant Professor of Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, NABC/EBS
                    11525 - 23 Avenue, Edmonton, AB, Canada T6J 4T3
                    Phone: (780) 431-5217/ Toll Free: 1-800-567-4988/ Fax: (780) 436-9416
                    Web Page: http://www.nabcebs.ab.ca/~twilliam
                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Kevin Holsapple [mailto:kholsapp@...]
                    > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 6:56 PM
                    > To: lxx@egroups.com
                    > Subject: [lxx] a question
                    >
                    >
                    > Can anyone on this list recommend a University or Seminary where LXX
                    > studies are a specialty, or at least an important part of the curriculum?
                    >
                    > Kevin Holsapple
                    > -----------------------------------------------------
                    > Click here for Free Video!!
                    > http://www.gohip.com/free_video/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • petersig@ccat.sas.upenn.edu
                    For Kevin Holsapple (and others on the LXX list): It is possible to study LXX/OG on a graduate level at the University of Pennsylvania, in the Department of
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 16, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      For Kevin Holsapple (and others on the LXX list):

                      It is possible to study LXX/OG on a graduate level at the University of
                      Pennsylvania, in the Department of Asian and Middle Eastern Languages,
                      with Jeffrey Tigay, or in Religious Studies, with Robert Kraft.

                      Robert Kraft typically has at least two or three students doing something
                      related to the LXX/OG. Jeff Tigay (JPS Deuteronomy Commentary) has
                      supervised a dissertation that concentrated on LXX. Several of the
                      Septuagint and Cognate Studies Series books originated here. Religious
                      Studies and Classics share a large graduate student lounge between them, a
                      library with Greek materials for reference, and a computer lab with
                      computerized Greek tools available. We have several working Ibycus
                      machines.

                      The following are web addresses for each:

                      Jeffrey Tigay http://www.sas.upenn.edu/ames/
                      Bob Kraft http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html

                      Whether this is the place to study basic LXX Greek in the classroom is
                      another question. If that's an issue, let me know.

                      Sigrid Peterson

                      >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Kevin Holsapple [mailto:kholsapp@...]
                      > > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 6:56 PM
                      > > To: lxx@egroups.com
                      > > Subject: [lxx] a question
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Can anyone on this list recommend a University or Seminary where LXX
                      > > studies are a specialty, or at least an important part of the curriculum?
                      > >
                      > > Kevin Holsapple
                      > > -----------------------------------------------------
                      > > Click here for Free Video!!
                      > > http://www.gohip.com/free_video/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.