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The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)

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  • olivier.koulytchizky
    First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the iconographic
    Message 1 of 19 , May 12, 2007
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      First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
      student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
      about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
      before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
      all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
      the BIOLA University (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this
      term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
      translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
      chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
      original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
      Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

      Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
      meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
      If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
      the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
      understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
      understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
      I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
      Old Testament.

      In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
      the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
      me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
      used this term of Pantocrator ?
      Thanks a lot.

      With best regards.

      Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
      (Université Toulouse II)
    • Peter Papoutsis
      From Orthopedia (i.e. Orthodox Wikipedia): Pantokrator was used to translate the Hebrew title El Shaddai. Early Christians ascribed this title to Jesus of
      Message 2 of 19 , May 12, 2007
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        From Orthopedia (i.e. Orthodox Wikipedia):
         
        Pantokrator was used to translate the Hebrew title El Shaddai. Early Christians ascribed this title to Jesus of Nazareth.
         

        The most common translation of Pantocrator is "Almighty" or "All-powerful." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek words for "all" and the noun "strength" (κρατος). This is often understood in terms of potential power; i.e., able to do anything, or omnipotentent.

         

        Another, less literal translation is "Ruler of All" or "Sustainer of the World." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek for "all" and the verb meaning "To accomplish something" or "to sustain something" (κρατεω). This translation speaks more to God's actual power; i.e., God does everything (as opposed to God can do everything).


        The Pantokrator, largely a Byzantine or Eastern Orthodox theological issue is by that name largely unknown to Roman Catholicism and most Protestants. Pantokrator is roughly synonymous with the western concept of omnipotence. But omnipotence is power in stasis while the power of the Pantokrator is dynamic.

        Uses in the New Testament

        In quoting the Septuagint, Paul uses Pantokrator once (2 Cor. 6:18). Aside from that one occurrence, the author of the Book of Revelation is the only New Testament author to use the word Pantokrator. The author of Revelation uses the word nine times,[1] and while the references to God and Christ in Revelation are at times interchangeable, Pantokrator appears to be reserved for God alone.

        ___________________________________________________________________________

         

        I don't know if this helps, but I hope it does.


         
        Peter A. Papoutsis
         
        This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: olivier.koulytchizky <olivier.koulytchizky@...>
        To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 8:30:05 AM
        Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)

        First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
        student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
        about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
        before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
        all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
        the BIOLA University (http://unbound. biola.edu/), I found that this
        term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
        translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
        chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
        original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
        Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

        Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
        meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
        If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
        the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
        understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
        understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
        I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
        Old Testament.

        In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
        the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
        me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
        used this term of Pantocrator ?
        Thanks a lot.

        With best regards.

        Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
        (Université Toulouse II)




        Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.
      • Peter Papoutsis
        You should also know that there is no word in the Hebrew that actually supports the Septuagint rendering of Pantocrator . In the great majority of instances
        Message 3 of 19 , May 12, 2007
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          You should also know that there is no word in the Hebrew that actually supports the Septuagint rendering of "Pantocrator".  In the great majority of instances where the Greek words are used, the Hebrew is a proper name, "Shaddai."  This is one name for deity in the Hebrew Bible alongside Yahweh.  No doubt these names go back to a polytheistic time.  The Greek translators did not want to use any proper names for God and certainly not two different ones.  Yahweh becomes "The Lord".  Of course, "Shaddai" could also be translated that way, but given the difference they wanted to render it differently.  In Job, Shaddai is depicted as exercising extensive control.  The substitution of "Pantocrator" seemed to fit.  Elsewhere the translators of the LXX employed diverse terms and strategies.  

           

          I got this from an article off og a Greek Orthodox website, but I could not find a cite to give. Sorry.


           
          Peter A. Papoutsis
           
          This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the addressee or the intended recipient of this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the addressee, then be notified hereby that any dissemination or duplication of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please telephone us immediately, return the message to the sender, and delete the original message from your system.


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: olivier.koulytchizky <olivier.koulytchizky@...>
          To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 8:30:05 AM
          Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)

          First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
          student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
          about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
          before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
          all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
          the BIOLA University (http://unbound. biola.edu/), I found that this
          term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
          translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
          chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
          original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
          Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

          Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
          meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
          If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
          the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
          understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
          understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
          I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
          Old Testament.

          In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
          the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
          me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
          used this term of Pantocrator ?
          Thanks a lot.

          With best regards.

          Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
          (Université Toulouse II)




          TV dinner still cooling?
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        • philippe guillaume
          Salut Olivier, J aimerai bien savoir où tu trouves l équivalent hébraique de Pantocrator dans l AT et s il s agit bien de El-Shaddai Salutations, On
          Message 4 of 19 , May 12, 2007
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            Salut Olivier,
             
            J'aimerai bien savoir où tu trouves l'équivalent hébraique de Pantocrator dans l'AT et s'il s'agit bien de El-Shaddai
             
            Salutations,

             
            On 5/12/07, olivier.koulytchizky <olivier.koulytchizky@...> wrote:

            First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
            student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
            about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
            before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
            all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
            the BIOLA University ( http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this
            term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
            translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
            chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
            original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
            Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

            Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
            meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
            If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
            the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
            understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
            understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
            I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
            Old Testament.

            In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
            the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
            me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
            used this term of Pantocrator ?
            Thanks a lot.

            With best regards.

            Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
            (Université Toulouse II)




            --
            Dr Philippe Guillaume
            Stelserstrasse 478A
            CH-7220 SCHIERS
            Tel. +81 330 34 37
          • Kevin P. Edgecomb
            Dear Olivier, Your research sounds very interesting. As others have mentioned, Greek Pantokrator and Latin Omniopotens, with English Almighty, are all often a
            Message 5 of 19 , May 12, 2007
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              Dear Olivier,
              Your research sounds very interesting.

              As others have mentioned, Greek Pantokrator and Latin Omniopotens, with
              English Almighty, are all often a translation of the Hebrew Shadday, a word
              of disputed meaning. It is perhaps related to the Akkadian shadu, mountain,
              or to the Arabic root sh-d-d, "to be strong." I suggest taking a look at
              the Koehler and Baumgartner Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament
              (Brill, 2001). In the English edition, the pages for Shadday are volume 2,
              pp 1420-1422. Bibliographic information is given there.

              Regards,
              Kevin P. Edgecomb
              Berkeley, California

              -----Original Message-----
              From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              olivier.koulytchizky
              Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 6:30 AM
              To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)

              First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French student
              in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the
              iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty) before iconoclasm
              and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual reliable
              sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University
              (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51 times in the
              Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term
              "Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in
              relation with the original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was
              translated into Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

              Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original meaning, in
              other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
              If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read the
              different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I understand
              that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the
              original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need, I can indicate all
              the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.

              In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of the
              first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate me the
              texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this term
              of Pantocrator ?
              Thanks a lot.

              With best regards.

              Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
              (Université Toulouse II)




              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • olivier.koulytchizky
              Bonjour, C est bien là l objet de ma question. Est-ce que le terme de Tout-puissant issu du grec Pantokrator est conforme dans sa signfication symbolique
              Message 6 of 19 , May 12, 2007
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                Bonjour,

                C'est bien là l'objet de ma question. Est-ce que le terme de
                "Tout-puissant" issu du grec "Pantokrator" est conforme dans sa
                signfication symbolique au nom hébraïque El-Shaddai à patir duquel il
                a été traduit dans la Septante. Il me semble comprendre qu'il y a un
                glissement sémantique, voire peut-être un parti-pris dans l'adoption
                du terme de "Pantokrator"... mais je ne suis pas spécialiste de ce
                domaine ! Par contre on peut s'interroger dans le cas d'un choix
                délibéré de ce terme de "Pantokrator" sur le pourquoi de ce choix. Y
                a-t-il pu avoir une influence des attributs donnés aux dieux grecs
                comme "Zeus Pantocrator", on sait que le Christ a hérité de certains
                épithètes comme "Soter" ou "Philanthropos". Sous les Ptolémées lors de
                la rédaction de la LXX, y a-t-il eu un Sarapis "Pantocrator" (le
                Sarapis "Philanthropos" semble avoir existé) qui aurait pu marquer les
                esprits et favoriser l'usage du terme lors de la traduction ?

                Cordialement

                Olivier Koulytchizky





                --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "philippe guillaume"
                <Philippe.guillaume@...> wrote:
                >
                > Salut Olivier,
                >
                > J'aimerai bien savoir où tu trouves l'équivalent hébraique de
                Pantocrator
                > dans l'AT et s'il s'agit bien de El-Shaddai
                >
                > Salutations,
                >
                >
                > On 5/12/07, olivier.koulytchizky <olivier.koulytchizky@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
                > > student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
                > > about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
                > > before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
                > > all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
                > > the BIOLA University (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this
                > > term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
                > > translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
                > > chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
                > > original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
                > > Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
                > >
                > > Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
                > > meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
                > > If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
                > > the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
                > > understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
                > > understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
                > > I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
                > > Old Testament.
                > >
                > > In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
                > > the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
                > > me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
                > > used this term of Pantocrator ?
                > > Thanks a lot.
                > >
                > > With best regards.
                > >
                > > Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
                > > (Université Toulouse II)
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                > Dr Philippe Guillaume
                > Stelserstrasse 478A
                > CH-7220 SCHIERS
                > Tel. +81 330 34 37
                >
              • philippe guillaume
                For Shadday, see Knauf in Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible / Karel van der Toorn ... [et al.], eds.. - 2nd, extensively rev. ed. - Leiden :
                Message 7 of 19 , May 13, 2007
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                  For Shadday, see Knauf in Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible / Karel van der Toorn ... [et al.], eds.. -  2nd, extensively rev. ed. - Leiden : Brill, 1999.
                  In any case, nothing to do with Pantokrator.

                   
                  On 5/12/07, Kevin P. Edgecomb <kevin@...> wrote:

                  Dear Olivier,
                  Your research sounds very interesting.

                  As others have mentioned, Greek Pantokrator and Latin Omniopotens, with
                  English Almighty, are all often a translation of the Hebrew Shadday, a word
                  of disputed meaning. It is perhaps related to the Akkadian shadu, mountain,
                  or to the Arabic root sh-d-d, "to be strong." I suggest taking a look at
                  the Koehler and Baumgartner Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament
                  (Brill, 2001). In the English edition, the pages for Shadday are volume 2,
                  pp 1420-1422. Bibliographic information is given there.

                  Regards,
                  Kevin P. Edgecomb
                  Berkeley, California

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto: lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  olivier.koulytchizky
                  Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 6:30 AM
                  To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)

                  First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French student
                  in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the
                  iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty) before iconoclasm
                  and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual reliable
                  sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University
                  ( http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51 times in the
                  Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term
                  "Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in
                  relation with the original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was
                  translated into Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.

                  Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original meaning, in
                  other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
                  If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read the
                  different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I understand
                  that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the
                  original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need, I can indicate all
                  the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.

                  In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of the
                  first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate me the
                  texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this term
                  of Pantocrator ?
                  Thanks a lot.

                  With best regards.

                  Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
                  (Université Toulouse II)

                  Yahoo! Groups Links




                  --
                  Dr Philippe Guillaume
                  Stelserstrasse 478A
                  CH-7220 SCHIERS
                  Tel. +81 330 34 37
                • olivier.koulytchizky
                  I want to correct an error i did : the occurences of the term PANTOKRATWR in the LXX seems occur, at least, 170 times (thanks to Arne) and not 51 times as i
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 14, 2007
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                    I want to correct an error i did : the occurences of the term
                    PANTOKRATWR in the LXX seems occur, at least, 170 times (thanks to
                    Arne) and not 51 times as i said. Thanks again to all people who
                    helped me to understand the meanings of this term and its origin.

                    Olivier Koulytchizky
                    Master History of Art
                    Université Toulouse II



                    --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "philippe guillaume"
                    <Philippe.guillaume@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > For Shadday, see Knauf in Dictionary of deities and demons in the
                    > Bible / Karel van der Toorn ... [et al.], eds.. - 2nd, extensively rev.
                    > ed. - Leiden : Brill, 1999.
                    > In any case, nothing to do with Pantokrator.
                    >
                    >
                    > On 5/12/07, Kevin P. Edgecomb <kevin@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear Olivier,
                    > > Your research sounds very interesting.
                    > >
                    > > As others have mentioned, Greek Pantokrator and Latin Omniopotens,
                    with
                    > > English Almighty, are all often a translation of the Hebrew Shadday, a
                    > > word
                    > > of disputed meaning. It is perhaps related to the Akkadian shadu,
                    > > mountain,
                    > > or to the Arabic root sh-d-d, "to be strong." I suggest taking a
                    look at
                    > > the Koehler and Baumgartner Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old
                    > > Testament
                    > > (Brill, 2001). In the English edition, the pages for Shadday are
                    volume 2,
                    > > pp 1420-1422. Bibliographic information is given there.
                    > >
                    > > Regards,
                    > > Kevin P. Edgecomb
                    > > Berkeley, California
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                    > > lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of
                    > > olivier.koulytchizky
                    > > Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 6:30 AM
                    > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Subject: [lxx] The meanings of the term : "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
                    > >
                    > > First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
                    > > student
                    > > in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research about the
                    > > iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty) before
                    > > iconoclasm
                    > > and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by all textual
                    reliable
                    > > sources. After a short research on database like the BIOLA University
                    > > (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this term appears 51
                    times in
                    > > the
                    > > Old Testament. But I am not sure that the translation of the term
                    > > "Pantocrator" which have been chosen for the Greeks is truly or
                    genuinely
                    > > in
                    > > relation with the original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before
                    she was
                    > > translated into Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in
                    Alexandria.
                    > >
                    > > Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
                    meaning,
                    > > in
                    > > other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
                    > > If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have
                    read the
                    > > different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
                    > > understand
                    > > that this translation is debatable, but I do not really understand the
                    > > original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need, I can
                    indicate all
                    > > the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the Old Testament.
                    > >
                    > > In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists
                    of the
                    > > first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
                    me the
                    > > texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which used this
                    > > term
                    > > of Pantocrator ?
                    > > Thanks a lot.
                    > >
                    > > With best regards.
                    > >
                    > > Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
                    > > (Université Toulouse II)
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Dr Philippe Guillaume
                    > Stelserstrasse 478A
                    > CH-7220 SCHIERS
                    > Tel. +81 330 34 37
                    >
                  • Robert Kraft
                    I apologize for my email program, which sometimes puts the list mailings into the spam box. So I don t know how much of the subsequent discussion of
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 17, 2007
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                      I apologize for my email program, which sometimes puts the list mailings into the "spam" box.
                      So I don't know how much of the subsequent discussion of PANTOKRATWR I've missed. Still --

                      One of the more interesting uses of that Greek term is for the Hebrew YHWH SeVAWT (something
                      like "YHWH of Hosts"). Do a search of the CATSS Parallel Hebrew // Greek files, as for example
                      in the Minor Prophets:
                      Hos 12.6 H/CB)WT O( PANTOKRA/TWR
                      Amos 3.13 and frequently (also for God of Hosts)
                      etc.

                      http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/

                      It is interesting especially because this Hebrew epithet gets rendered quite differently by
                      different translators --
                      "Lord of the Powers/Hosts" (TWN DUNAMEWN -- see Psalms -- e.g. 23/24.10 etc.)
                      "Lord SABAWQ" (so the translator of Isaiah!)
                      "YHWH of the Military/Soldiers" (so Aquila)

                      It is thus a valuable lesson to warn us NOT to speak of "THE LXX" as homogeneous, or to imagine
                      that the different translators worked out of the same location or linguistic context. That
                      other terms such as Shaddai might get similar treatment perhaps tells us little beyond the
                      obvious fact that translators (and text copyists) tried to work within certain idioms that
                      presumably would have been familiar to their readers.

                      Bob Kraft, UPenn

                      >
                      > First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
                      > student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
                      > about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
                      > before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
                      > all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
                      > the BIOLA University (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this
                      > term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
                      > translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
                      > chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
                      > original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
                      > Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
                      >
                      > Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
                      > meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
                      > If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
                      > the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
                      > understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
                      > understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
                      > I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
                      > Old Testament.
                      >
                      > In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
                      > the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
                      > me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
                      > used this term of Pantocrator ?
                      > Thanks a lot.
                      >
                      > With best regards.
                      >
                      > Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
                      > (Universit� Toulouse II)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      --
                      Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                      227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                      kraft@...
                      http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                    • Robert Kraft
                      Apparently Olivier missed my earlier posting on this topic, which I append below: Olivier wrote: I go back again on this topic. I got profuse informations by
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 18, 2007
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                        Apparently Olivier missed my earlier posting on this topic, which I append below:

                        Olivier wrote:
                        I go back again on this topic.
                        I got profuse informations by private mail (thanks very much again,
                        and particullary to Arne Halbakken) and some others intersting
                        informations directly on this list.
                        But all informations I got deals with a specific origin : translation
                        of the hebrew term of "Shaddai" in the hellenistic term of
                        "Pantocrator" during the LXX. But no information about "Sabaoth" as a
                        possible origin of this term. I just have read a french serious study
                        from CNRS (the greatest french organism in Science)written by Gilles
                        Dorival, Marguerite Harl, Olivier Munnich : "La Bible grecque des
                        Septante, Du juda<EF>sme hell<E9>nistique au christianisme ancien", Paris,
                        Cerf/Editions du CNRS, 1994. This paper deals with not specially about
                        the origin of Pantocrator, but for this authors "YHWH Sabaoth" was
                        translated in "kyrios pantokrator" and for us the meaning of "God of
                        army" seems to be one of the principal meanings. This book (published
                        in 1994) is from a study done in 1990. Maybe until this date, progress
                        of philology had infirm this one ?

                        Olivier

                        I had written:

                        > One of the more interesting uses of that Greek term is for the Hebrew YHWH SeVAWT (something
                        > like "YHWH of Hosts"). Do a search of the CATSS Parallel Hebrew // Greek files, as for example
                        > in the Minor Prophets:
                        > Hos 12.6 H/CB)WT O( PANTOKRA/TWR
                        > Amos 3.13 and frequently (also for God of Hosts)
                        > etc.
                        >
                        > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/
                        >
                        > It is interesting especially because this Hebrew epithet gets rendered quite differently by
                        > different translators --
                        > "Lord of the Powers/Hosts" (TWN DUNAMEWN -- see Psalms -- e.g. 23/24.10 etc.)
                        > "Lord SABAWQ" (so the translator of Isaiah!)
                        > "YHWH of the Military/Soldiers" (so Aquila)
                        >
                        > It is thus a valuable lesson to warn us NOT to speak of "THE LXX" as homogeneous, or to imagine
                        > that the different translators worked out of the same location or linguistic context. That
                        > other terms such as Shaddai might get similar treatment perhaps tells us little beyond the
                        > obvious fact that translators (and text copyists) tried to work within certain idioms that
                        > presumably would have been familiar to their readers.
                        >
                        > Bob Kraft, UPenn
                        >
                        > >
                        > > First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
                        > > student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
                        > > about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
                        > > before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
                        > > all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database like
                        > > the BIOLA University (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this
                        > > term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure that the
                        > > translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
                        > > chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
                        > > original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated into
                        > > Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
                        > >
                        > > Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
                        > > meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is correct.
                        > > If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have read
                        > > the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
                        > > understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
                        > > understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you need,
                        > > I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used in the
                        > > Old Testament.
                        > >
                        > > In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
                        > > the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
                        > > me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
                        > > used this term of Pantocrator ?
                        > > Thanks a lot.
                        > >
                        > > With best regards.
                        > >
                        > > Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
                        > > (Universit� Toulouse II)

                        --
                        Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                        227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                        kraft@...
                        http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                      • Olivier Koulytchizky
                        Thanks to remenber this post. As I am not familiar with your specific transcription/spelling, I missed that SABAWQ was Saboath . Then I have read now your
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 18, 2007
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                          Thanks to remenber this post. As I am not familiar with your specific
                          transcription/spelling, I missed that "SABAWQ" was "Saboath". Then I
                          have read now your message with more attention, and I keep this origin
                          as possible (with the other epithet of "Shaddaï").Thanks again.
                          Olivier


                          --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kraft <kraft@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Apparently Olivier missed my earlier posting on this topic, which I
                          append below:
                          >
                          > Olivier wrote:
                          > I go back again on this topic.
                          > I got profuse informations by private mail (thanks very much again,
                          > and particullary to Arne Halbakken) and some others intersting
                          > informations directly on this list.
                          > But all informations I got deals with a specific origin : translation
                          > of the hebrew term of "Shaddai" in the hellenistic term of
                          > "Pantocrator" during the LXX. But no information about "Sabaoth" as a
                          > possible origin of this term. I just have read a french serious study
                          > from CNRS (the greatest french organism in Science)written by Gilles
                          > Dorival, Marguerite Harl, Olivier Munnich : "La Bible grecque des
                          > Septante, Du juda<EF>sme hell<E9>nistique au christianisme ancien",
                          Paris,
                          > Cerf/Editions du CNRS, 1994. This paper deals with not specially about
                          > the origin of Pantocrator, but for this authors "YHWH Sabaoth" was
                          > translated in "kyrios pantokrator" and for us the meaning of "God of
                          > army" seems to be one of the principal meanings. This book (published
                          > in 1994) is from a study done in 1990. Maybe until this date, progress
                          > of philology had infirm this one ?
                          >
                          > Olivier
                          >
                          > I had written:
                          >
                          > > One of the more interesting uses of that Greek term is for the
                          Hebrew YHWH SeVAWT (something
                          > > like "YHWH of Hosts"). Do a search of the CATSS Parallel Hebrew //
                          Greek files, as for example
                          > > in the Minor Prophets:
                          > > Hos 12.6 H/CB)WT O( PANTOKRA/TWR
                          > > Amos 3.13 and frequently (also for God of Hosts)
                          > > etc.
                          > >
                          > > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/
                          > >
                          > > It is interesting especially because this Hebrew epithet gets
                          rendered quite differently by
                          > > different translators --
                          > > "Lord of the Powers/Hosts" (TWN DUNAMEWN -- see Psalms -- e.g.
                          23/24.10 etc.)
                          > > "Lord SABAWQ" (so the translator of Isaiah!)
                          > > "YHWH of the Military/Soldiers" (so Aquila)
                          > >
                          > > It is thus a valuable lesson to warn us NOT to speak of "THE LXX"
                          as homogeneous, or to imagine
                          > > that the different translators worked out of the same location or
                          linguistic context. That
                          > > other terms such as Shaddai might get similar treatment perhaps
                          tells us little beyond the
                          > > obvious fact that translators (and text copyists) tried to work
                          within certain idioms that
                          > > presumably would have been familiar to their readers.
                          > >
                          > > Bob Kraft, UPenn
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a French
                          > > > student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a research
                          > > > about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator" (Almighty)
                          > > > before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially interested by
                          > > > all textual reliable sources. After a short research on database
                          like
                          > > > the BIOLA University (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found that this
                          > > > term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure
                          that the
                          > > > translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
                          > > > chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with the
                          > > > original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was translated
                          into
                          > > > Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
                          > > >
                          > > > Is any one can give me pieces of information about this original
                          > > > meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is
                          correct.
                          > > > If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I have
                          read
                          > > > the different messages of this forum about this theme (Almighty) : I
                          > > > understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not really
                          > > > understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If you
                          need,
                          > > > I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is used
                          in the
                          > > > Old Testament.
                          > > >
                          > > > In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few specialists of
                          > > > the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to indicate
                          > > > me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria) which
                          > > > used this term of Pantocrator ?
                          > > > Thanks a lot.
                          > > >
                          > > > With best regards.
                          > > >
                          > > > Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
                          > > > (Université Toulouse II)
                          >
                          > --
                          > Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                          > 227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                          > kraft@...
                          > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                          >
                        • finckean
                          I didn t mean to imply that the sin of Eli s sons was all the fault of the sobaoth , the women mustered at the door of the tent of testimony.
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 20, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I didn't mean to imply that the sin of Eli's sons was all the fault
                            of the "sobaoth", the women "mustered" at the door of the tent of
                            testimony. Brooke-McLeans's apparatus to Codex Vaticanus cites the
                            Syriac of Bar Hebraus to the effect that "they (Eli's sons?)put them
                            (the women?)to sleep". But a check of the original - ed. Sprengling -
                            has: wedemetsa'arin lenasha demetsalin bemishkan byt yyy "and (they)
                            abused the women who prayed in the tabernacle of the temple". Maybe
                            all these women "mustered" sobaoth in the sense that they - through
                            no fault of their own - attracted the attention of "armies" sabaoth,
                            i.e. soldiers on leave from service. Note that wedemetsa'arin
                            lenasha demetsalin is a word-play, since the first (without d = "who
                            were") and third words are almost identical in Syriac script.
                            Andrew Fincke

                            --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier Koulytchizky"
                            <olivier.koulytchizky@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks to remenber this post. As I am not familiar with your
                            specific
                            > transcription/spelling, I missed that "SABAWQ" was "Saboath". Then
                            I
                            > have read now your message with more attention, and I keep this
                            origin
                            > as possible (with the other epithet of "Shadda�").Thanks again.
                            > Olivier
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kraft <kraft@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Apparently Olivier missed my earlier posting on this topic, which
                            I
                            > append below:
                            > >
                            > > Olivier wrote:
                            > > I go back again on this topic.
                            > > I got profuse informations by private mail (thanks very much
                            again,
                            > > and particullary to Arne Halbakken) and some others intersting
                            > > informations directly on this list.
                            > > But all informations I got deals with a specific origin :
                            translation
                            > > of the hebrew term of "Shaddai" in the hellenistic term of
                            > > "Pantocrator" during the LXX. But no information about "Sabaoth"
                            as a
                            > > possible origin of this term. I just have read a french serious
                            study
                            > > from CNRS (the greatest french organism in Science)written by
                            Gilles
                            > > Dorival, Marguerite Harl, Olivier Munnich : "La Bible grecque des
                            > > Septante, Du juda<EF>sme hell<E9>nistique au christianisme
                            ancien",
                            > Paris,
                            > > Cerf/Editions du CNRS, 1994. This paper deals with not specially
                            about
                            > > the origin of Pantocrator, but for this authors "YHWH Sabaoth" was
                            > > translated in "kyrios pantokrator" and for us the meaning of "God
                            of
                            > > army" seems to be one of the principal meanings. This book
                            (published
                            > > in 1994) is from a study done in 1990. Maybe until this date,
                            progress
                            > > of philology had infirm this one ?
                            > >
                            > > Olivier
                            > >
                            > > I had written:
                            > >
                            > > > One of the more interesting uses of that Greek term is for the
                            > Hebrew YHWH SeVAWT (something
                            > > > like "YHWH of Hosts"). Do a search of the CATSS Parallel
                            Hebrew //
                            > Greek files, as for example
                            > > > in the Minor Prophets:
                            > > > Hos 12.6 H/CB)WT O( PANTOKRA/TWR
                            > > > Amos 3.13 and frequently (also for God of Hosts)
                            > > > etc.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/text/religion/biblical/parallel/
                            > > >
                            > > > It is interesting especially because this Hebrew epithet gets
                            > rendered quite differently by
                            > > > different translators --
                            > > > "Lord of the Powers/Hosts" (TWN DUNAMEWN -- see Psalms -- e.g.
                            > 23/24.10 etc.)
                            > > > "Lord SABAWQ" (so the translator of Isaiah!)
                            > > > "YHWH of the Military/Soldiers" (so Aquila)
                            > > >
                            > > > It is thus a valuable lesson to warn us NOT to speak of "THE
                            LXX"
                            > as homogeneous, or to imagine
                            > > > that the different translators worked out of the same location
                            or
                            > linguistic context. That
                            > > > other terms such as Shaddai might get similar treatment perhaps
                            > tells us little beyond the
                            > > > obvious fact that translators (and text copyists) tried to work
                            > within certain idioms that
                            > > > presumably would have been familiar to their readers.
                            > > >
                            > > > Bob Kraft, UPenn
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > First I want to apologize for my approximate English. I am a
                            French
                            > > > > student in medieval History of Art and I am conducting a
                            research
                            > > > > about the iconographic type (image) of the "Pantocrator"
                            (Almighty)
                            > > > > before iconoclasm and its meaning. Then I am specially
                            interested by
                            > > > > all textual reliable sources. After a short research on
                            database
                            > like
                            > > > > the BIOLA University (http://unbound.biola.edu/), I found
                            that this
                            > > > > term appears 51 times in the Old Testament. But I am not sure
                            > that the
                            > > > > translation of the term "Pantocrator" which have been
                            > > > > chosen for the Greeks is truly or genuinely in relation with
                            the
                            > > > > original meaning from the Hebrew Bible before she was
                            translated
                            > into
                            > > > > Greek for the LXX between the 3rd to 1st in Alexandria.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Is any one can give me pieces of information about this
                            original
                            > > > > meaning, in other words, is the translation "Pantocrator" is
                            > correct.
                            > > > > If not, what is the original meaning in the Jewish texts. I
                            have
                            > read
                            > > > > the different messages of this forum about this theme
                            (Almighty) : I
                            > > > > understand that this translation is debatable, but I do not
                            really
                            > > > > understand the original correct meaning (in short terms). If
                            you
                            > need,
                            > > > > I can indicate all the parts where the term Pantocrator is
                            used
                            > in the
                            > > > > Old Testament.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > In a second time, maybe, there are on this forum few
                            specialists of
                            > > > > the first centuries after Christ and maybe they are able to
                            indicate
                            > > > > me the texts of patristic (by example Athanase of Alexandria)
                            which
                            > > > > used this term of Pantocrator ?
                            > > > > Thanks a lot.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > With best regards.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Olivier KOULYTCHIZKY
                            > > > > (Universit� Toulouse II)
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
                            > > 227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
                            > > kraft@
                            > > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
                            > >
                            >
                          • finckean
                            So the Lord of praying women became the Lord of armies . Pantokratwr first appears in the Bible for sabaoth at 2 Samuel 5:10: And David walked and got
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 22, 2007
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                              So the "Lord of praying women" became the "Lord of armies".
                              Pantokratwr first appears in the Bible for sabaoth at 2 Samuel
                              5:10: "And David walked and got large, and the Lord God of hosts
                              (pantokratwr) with him". Peculiar to the passage is the sequence "and"
                              + "the Lord" + "God" + "hosts", that appears only once more - at Hosea
                              12:6, there with "the hosts" for "hosts". 2 Samuel 5:11 goes on: "And
                              Chiram, king of Tyre, sent messengers to David, and carpenters and
                              masons; and they built a house for David". And verse 13: "And David
                              took more girlfriends and wives from Jerusalem after he came from
                              Hebron, and there were brought forth to him more sons and daughters".
                              Since there was no temple in Jerusalem (see 2 Samuel 7:2), David's
                              house was an ersatz-temple. Perhaps LXX introduced the odd word
                              pantokratwr to draw a parallel between the sin Of Eli's sons, which
                              transpired at the door of a tent housing the ark (1 Samuel 2:22), while
                              Samuel slept in a house called "the temple" (2 Samuel 3:3), with
                              David's voluminous procreation in a "house of cedars" (2 Samuel 7:2) -
                              see the list of the Jerusalm begotten at 2 Samuel 5:14-16 -, while the
                              ark resided in a tent. 2 Samuel 7 is one big prayer for forgiveness
                              for this sin.
                              Andrew Fincke
                            • Olivier Koulytchizky
                              Thanks for all points of interest. Concerning the context, can we consider that Sabaoth (in his acceptation of God of armies) could have been in relation with
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 23, 2007
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                                Thanks for all points of interest. Concerning the context, can we
                                consider that Sabaoth (in his acceptation of God of armies) could have
                                been in relation with the liberation of the jewish people from Egypt ?
                                Olivier Koulytchizky






                                --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "finckean" <finckea@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > So the "Lord of praying women" became the "Lord of armies".
                                > Pantokratwr first appears in the Bible for sabaoth at 2 Samuel
                                > 5:10: "And David walked and got large, and the Lord God of hosts
                                > (pantokratwr) with him". Peculiar to the passage is the sequence "and"
                                > + "the Lord" + "God" + "hosts", that appears only once more - at Hosea
                                > 12:6, there with "the hosts" for "hosts". 2 Samuel 5:11 goes on: "And
                                > Chiram, king of Tyre, sent messengers to David, and carpenters and
                                > masons; and they built a house for David". And verse 13: "And David
                                > took more girlfriends and wives from Jerusalem after he came from
                                > Hebron, and there were brought forth to him more sons and daughters".
                                > Since there was no temple in Jerusalem (see 2 Samuel 7:2), David's
                                > house was an ersatz-temple. Perhaps LXX introduced the odd word
                                > pantokratwr to draw a parallel between the sin Of Eli's sons, which
                                > transpired at the door of a tent housing the ark (1 Samuel 2:22), while
                                > Samuel slept in a house called "the temple" (2 Samuel 3:3), with
                                > David's voluminous procreation in a "house of cedars" (2 Samuel 7:2) -
                                > see the list of the Jerusalm begotten at 2 Samuel 5:14-16 -, while the
                                > ark resided in a tent. 2 Samuel 7 is one big prayer for forgiveness
                                > for this sin.
                                > Andrew Fincke
                                >
                              • Juvenaly
                                I missed the previous discussion on the meaning of Pantocratwr, so this may be repitition of what s already been said. I just thought it was interesting that
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 23, 2007
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                                  I missed the previous discussion on the meaning of "Pantocratwr," so
                                  this may be repitition of what's already been said. I just thought it
                                  was interesting that this morning I was talking with a master
                                  iconographer who began speaking about this very word which appears on
                                  certain icons. She said it doesn't just mean ruler of all. She said
                                  it's related to the word "krater" which means a mixing bowl used to mix
                                  wine also a chalice or any bowl (whence "crater" a bowl-like
                                  geophysical structure) - pointing out that a krater holds, contains,
                                  just as kratew means to rule, to hold the power in one's hands, to hold
                                  sway. The lexicon says krater actually comes from kerannumi "mix,
                                  mingle" but it's an interesting idea. Of course, the meaning of
                                  "Pantrocrator" according to the Patristic Greek lexicon is "Sovereign
                                  of all".
                                  Juvenaly

                                  >--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "finckean" <finckea@...> wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >> So the "Lord of praying women" became the "Lord of armies".
                                  >> Pantokratwr first appears in the Bible for sabaoth at 2 Samuel
                                  >> 5:10: "And David walked and got large, and the Lord God of hosts
                                  >> (pantokratwr) with him". Peculiar to the passage is the sequence "and"
                                  >> + "the Lord" + "God" + "hosts", that appears only once more - at Hosea
                                  >> 12:6, there with "the hosts" for "hosts". 2 Samuel 5:11 goes on: "And
                                  >> Chiram, king of Tyre, sent messengers to David, and carpenters and
                                  >> masons; and they built a house for David". And verse 13: "And David
                                  >> took more girlfriends and wives from Jerusalem after he came from
                                  >> Hebron, and there were brought forth to him more sons and daughters".
                                  >> Since there was no temple in Jerusalem (see 2 Samuel 7:2), David's
                                  >> house was an ersatz-temple. Perhaps LXX introduced the odd word
                                  >> pantokratwr to draw a parallel between the sin Of Eli's sons, which
                                  >> transpired at the door of a tent housing the ark (1 Samuel 2:22), while
                                  >> Samuel slept in a house called "the temple" (2 Samuel 3:3), with
                                  >> David's voluminous procreation in a "house of cedars" (2 Samuel 7:2) -
                                  >> see the list of the Jerusalm begotten at 2 Samuel 5:14-16 -, while the
                                  >> ark resided in a tent. 2 Samuel 7 is one big prayer for forgiveness
                                  >> for this sin.
                                  >> Andrew Fincke
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • finckean
                                  Good question, Olivier, Looks to me like the end of Exod 12:41: And it was at the end of 430 years, and it was in this very day, all the sabaoth of the Lord
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 24, 2007
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                                    Good question, Olivier,
                                    Looks to me like the end of Exod 12:41:
                                    "And it was at the end of 430 years, and it was in this very day, all
                                    the sabaoth of the Lord went forth from the land of Egypt"
                                    doesn't belong there. LXX has the last clause but not the second.
                                    The context requires the elimination of both the second and third
                                    clauses. Where do they go? They seem to be an alternate version of
                                    the beginning of 1 Samuel 18:6. which describes women "going out from
                                    all the cities of Israel to greet Saul" after the murder of Goliath.
                                    There it says:
                                    "And when they came, when David returned from killing the Philistine,
                                    the women went forth from all the cities of Israel to greet Saul".
                                    Now if we assume that the tsade in misrayim "Egypt" is actually its
                                    lookalike in Herodian: ayin, then "Egypt" becomes "from cities"
                                    me'arim; and the excess at Exodus 12:41 becomes "In this very day the
                                    sobaoth (mustering women) of the Lord went forth from the land, from
                                    the cities", which echoes the beginning of 1 Samuel 18:6. "In this
                                    vcery day" - which sticks out at Exodus 12:41, where the theme is the
                                    night of Passover - replaces the equally discordant "And when they
                                    came" at 1 Samuel 18:6 to make "In this very day when David
                                    returned..."
                                    So my answer: "sabaoth" at Exodus 12:41, implying that Jews sneaking
                                    out of Egypt with unleavend bread wrapped in their garments pertain
                                    as "armies" is ludicrous. They were going to kill Amalekites with
                                    matza? And the clause including the word interrupts the context of
                                    the preceding and following verses.
                                    Andrew Fincke
                                    --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier Koulytchizky"
                                    <olivier.koulytchizky@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for all points of interest. Concerning the context, can we
                                    > consider that Sabaoth (in his acceptation of God of armies) could
                                    have
                                    > been in relation with the liberation of the jewish people from
                                    Egypt ?
                                    > Olivier Koulytchizky
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "finckean" <finckea@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > So the "Lord of praying women" became the "Lord of armies".
                                    > > Pantokratwr first appears in the Bible for sabaoth at 2 Samuel
                                    > > 5:10: "And David walked and got large, and the Lord God of hosts
                                    > > (pantokratwr) with him". Peculiar to the passage is the
                                    sequence "and"
                                    > > + "the Lord" + "God" + "hosts", that appears only once more - at
                                    Hosea
                                    > > 12:6, there with "the hosts" for "hosts". 2 Samuel 5:11 goes
                                    on: "And
                                    > > Chiram, king of Tyre, sent messengers to David, and carpenters
                                    and
                                    > > masons; and they built a house for David". And verse 13: "And
                                    David
                                    > > took more girlfriends and wives from Jerusalem after he came from
                                    > > Hebron, and there were brought forth to him more sons and
                                    daughters".
                                    > > Since there was no temple in Jerusalem (see 2 Samuel 7:2),
                                    David's
                                    > > house was an ersatz-temple. Perhaps LXX introduced the odd word
                                    > > pantokratwr to draw a parallel between the sin Of Eli's sons,
                                    which
                                    > > transpired at the door of a tent housing the ark (1 Samuel 2:22),
                                    while
                                    > > Samuel slept in a house called "the temple" (2 Samuel 3:3), with
                                    > > David's voluminous procreation in a "house of cedars" (2 Samuel
                                    7:2) -
                                    > > see the list of the Jerusalm begotten at 2 Samuel 5:14-16 -,
                                    while the
                                    > > ark resided in a tent. 2 Samuel 7 is one big prayer for
                                    forgiveness
                                    > > for this sin.
                                    > > Andrew Fincke
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • finckean
                                    Dear Juvenaly, Good point. Now we know why these women mustered together - to bake bread. They needed mixing bowls, so they became known as pantokratwr
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 24, 2007
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                                      Dear Juvenaly,
                                      Good point. Now we know why these women "mustered" together - to
                                      bake bread. They needed mixing bowls, so they became known as
                                      pantokratwr "all the mixing bowls". Exodus 12:41 got corrupted with
                                      sabaoth read sobaoth, "armies" read "mustering women", due to verse
                                      39, describing baking unleavened bread.
                                      Andrew Fincke
                                      In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Juvenaly" <juven@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I missed the previous discussion on the meaning of "Pantocratwr," so
                                      > this may be repitition of what's already been said. I just thought
                                      it
                                      > was interesting that this morning I was talking with a master
                                      > iconographer who began speaking about this very word which appears
                                      on
                                      > certain icons. She said it doesn't just mean ruler of all. She said
                                      > it's related to the word "krater" which means a mixing bowl used to
                                      mix
                                      > wine also a chalice or any bowl (whence "crater" a bowl-like
                                      > geophysical structure) - pointing out that a krater holds, contains,
                                      > just as kratew means to rule, to hold the power in one's hands, to
                                      hold
                                      > sway. The lexicon says krater actually comes from kerannumi "mix,
                                      > mingle" but it's an interesting idea. Of course, the meaning of
                                      > "Pantrocrator" according to the Patristic Greek lexicon
                                      is "Sovereign
                                      > of all".
                                      > Juvenaly
                                      >
                                      > >--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "finckean" <finckea@> wrote:
                                      > >>
                                      > >> So the "Lord of praying women" became the "Lord of armies".
                                      > >> Pantokratwr first appears in the Bible for sabaoth at 2 Samuel
                                      > >> 5:10: "And David walked and got large, and the Lord God of hosts
                                      > >> (pantokratwr) with him". Peculiar to the passage is the
                                      sequence "and"
                                      > >> + "the Lord" + "God" + "hosts", that appears only once more - at
                                      Hosea
                                      > >> 12:6, there with "the hosts" for "hosts". 2 Samuel 5:11 goes
                                      on: "And
                                      > >> Chiram, king of Tyre, sent messengers to David, and carpenters
                                      and
                                      > >> masons; and they built a house for David". And verse 13: "And
                                      David
                                      > >> took more girlfriends and wives from Jerusalem after he came
                                      from
                                      > >> Hebron, and there were brought forth to him more sons and
                                      daughters".
                                      > >> Since there was no temple in Jerusalem (see 2 Samuel 7:2),
                                      David's
                                      > >> house was an ersatz-temple. Perhaps LXX introduced the odd word
                                      > >> pantokratwr to draw a parallel between the sin Of Eli's sons,
                                      which
                                      > >> transpired at the door of a tent housing the ark (1 Samuel
                                      2:22), while
                                      > >> Samuel slept in a house called "the temple" (2 Samuel 3:3), with
                                      > >> David's voluminous procreation in a "house of cedars" (2 Samuel
                                      7:2) -
                                      > >> see the list of the Jerusalm begotten at 2 Samuel 5:14-16 -,
                                      while the
                                      > >> ark resided in a tent. 2 Samuel 7 is one big prayer for
                                      forgiveness
                                      > >> for this sin.
                                      > >> Andrew Fincke
                                      > >>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Olivier Koulytchizky
                                      Dear LXX members, Thanks again for all these points of interest about Shadaï and Sabaoth given to a the no specialist of LXX that I am. My research deals with
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jun 25, 2007
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                                        Dear LXX members,

                                        Thanks again for all these points of interest about Shadaï and Sabaoth
                                        given to a the no specialist of LXX that I am. My research deals with
                                        the pre-iconoclastic iconography of the Christ Pantocrator under
                                        Justinian I (6 century). If the meanings and the iconograpic type of
                                        Pantocrator is relatively clearly defined after iconoclasm, this type
                                        before iconoclasm is still undefined. At this time, Pantocrator is
                                        probably used as an epithet to designate especially a type of Christ
                                        in his diophysit nature (2 physis : both divine and human). Then,
                                        applied to his divine nature, it is intersting to see that we can find
                                        an heritage from the hebrew epithet of Shaddaï but not really from
                                        Saboath. The epithet Pantocrator applied strictly to the Christ sems
                                        to be appear belatedly (in the NT - Apocalypse - this épithet goes on
                                        to nominate God and not the Christ) and Patristic of the first
                                        centuries does not seem to use this épithet directly applied to the
                                        Christ. The Christ Pantocrator seems perhaps appear in the later
                                        context of christological debates (monophysism/monothelism vs
                                        chalcedonian, etc.). But it was particullary interesting for me to
                                        understand which roots in the LXX (6 or 7 centuries ago !)have been
                                        maintained, even the original meanings had naturally evolved during a
                                        so long time. Then thanks again to all members who had given me (on
                                        this forum or by private mails) pieces of information concerning this
                                        difficult subject.
                                        With best regards.

                                        Olivier Koulytchizky
                                        (UTM-Toulouse/France)











                                        --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Juvenaly" <juven@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I missed the previous discussion on the meaning of "Pantocratwr," so
                                        > this may be repitition of what's already been said. I just thought it
                                        > was interesting that this morning I was talking with a master
                                        > iconographer who began speaking about this very word which appears on
                                        > certain icons. She said it doesn't just mean ruler of all. She said
                                        > it's related to the word "krater" which means a mixing bowl used to mix
                                        > wine also a chalice or any bowl (whence "crater" a bowl-like
                                        > geophysical structure) - pointing out that a krater holds, contains,
                                        > just as kratew means to rule, to hold the power in one's hands, to hold
                                        > sway. The lexicon says krater actually comes from kerannumi "mix,
                                        > mingle" but it's an interesting idea. Of course, the meaning of
                                        > "Pantrocrator" according to the Patristic Greek lexicon is "Sovereign
                                        > of all".
                                        > Juvenaly
                                        >
                                        > >--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "finckean" <finckea@> wrote:
                                        > >>
                                        > >> So the "Lord of praying women" became the "Lord of armies".
                                        > >> Pantokratwr first appears in the Bible for sabaoth at 2 Samuel
                                        > >> 5:10: "And David walked and got large, and the Lord God of hosts
                                        > >> (pantokratwr) with him". Peculiar to the passage is the sequence
                                        "and"
                                        > >> + "the Lord" + "God" + "hosts", that appears only once more - at
                                        Hosea
                                        > >> 12:6, there with "the hosts" for "hosts". 2 Samuel 5:11 goes on:
                                        "And
                                        > >> Chiram, king of Tyre, sent messengers to David, and carpenters and
                                        > >> masons; and they built a house for David". And verse 13: "And David
                                        > >> took more girlfriends and wives from Jerusalem after he came from
                                        > >> Hebron, and there were brought forth to him more sons and
                                        daughters".
                                        > >> Since there was no temple in Jerusalem (see 2 Samuel 7:2), David's
                                        > >> house was an ersatz-temple. Perhaps LXX introduced the odd word
                                        > >> pantokratwr to draw a parallel between the sin Of Eli's sons, which
                                        > >> transpired at the door of a tent housing the ark (1 Samuel 2:22),
                                        while
                                        > >> Samuel slept in a house called "the temple" (2 Samuel 3:3), with
                                        > >> David's voluminous procreation in a "house of cedars" (2 Samuel
                                        7:2) -
                                        > >> see the list of the Jerusalm begotten at 2 Samuel 5:14-16 -,
                                        while the
                                        > >> ark resided in a tent. 2 Samuel 7 is one big prayer for forgiveness
                                        > >> for this sin.
                                        > >> Andrew Fincke
                                        > >>
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • finckean
                                        Dear Olivier, You re way out of my line talking about the New Testament, but it seems clear that 2 Corinthians 6:18 And I will be Father to you, and you will
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jun 25, 2007
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                                          Dear Olivier,
                                          You're way out of my line talking about the New Testament, but it
                                          seems clear that 2 Corinthians 6:18 "And I will be Father to you, and
                                          you will be sons and daughters to Me, says the Lord Pantokrator" is a
                                          misquote of 2 Samuel 7:14: "And I will be his (Solomon's) father, and
                                          he will be My son" + ibid. v. 8: "says the Lord Pantokrator". Extra
                                          at the Corinthians verse is "and daughters", which - in combination
                                          with "and sons" gives the picture of what we saw before - men and
                                          women running around baking croissants on their shoulders to take
                                          with them as they flee. Now we know that Christ became not only man
                                          (diophysit) but also bread, that we eat when we take communion.
                                          Perhaps the flour on the Jews' shoulders had to be inundated with
                                          fluid, thus anointed, to produce edible bread. The breads
                                          became "anointed messiahs" that saved the Jews from the Egyptians.
                                          David is the archtypical Old Testament "anointed".
                                          Andrew Fincke
                                          In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Olivier Koulytchizky"
                                          <olivier.koulytchizky@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear LXX members,
                                          >
                                          > Thanks again for all these points of interest about Shadaï and
                                          Sabaoth
                                          > given to a the no specialist of LXX that I am. My research deals
                                          with
                                          > the pre-iconoclastic iconography of the Christ Pantocrator under
                                          > Justinian I (6 century). If the meanings and the iconograpic type of
                                          > Pantocrator is relatively clearly defined after iconoclasm, this
                                          type
                                          > before iconoclasm is still undefined. At this time, Pantocrator is
                                          > probably used as an epithet to designate especially a type of Christ
                                          > in his diophysit nature (2 physis : both divine and human). Then,
                                          > applied to his divine nature, it is intersting to see that we can
                                          find
                                          > an heritage from the hebrew epithet of Shaddaï but not really from
                                          > Saboath. The epithet Pantocrator applied strictly to the Christ sems
                                          > to be appear belatedly (in the NT - Apocalypse - this épithet goes
                                          on
                                          > to nominate God and not the Christ) and Patristic of the first
                                          > centuries does not seem to use this épithet directly applied to the
                                          > Christ. The Christ Pantocrator seems perhaps appear in the later
                                          > context of christological debates (monophysism/monothelism vs
                                          > chalcedonian, etc.). But it was particullary interesting for me to
                                          > understand which roots in the LXX (6 or 7 centuries ago !)have been
                                          > maintained, even the original meanings had naturally evolved during
                                          a
                                          > so long time. Then thanks again to all members who had given me (on
                                          > this forum or by private mails) pieces of information concerning
                                          this
                                          > difficult subject.
                                          > With best regards.
                                          >
                                          > Olivier Koulytchizky
                                          > (UTM-Toulouse/France)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Juvenaly" <juven@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I missed the previous discussion on the meaning of "Pantocratwr,"
                                          so
                                          > > this may be repitition of what's already been said. I just
                                          thought it
                                          > > was interesting that this morning I was talking with a master
                                          > > iconographer who began speaking about this very word which
                                          appears on
                                          > > certain icons. She said it doesn't just mean ruler of all. She
                                          said
                                          > > it's related to the word "krater" which means a mixing bowl used
                                          to mix
                                          > > wine also a chalice or any bowl (whence "crater" a bowl-like
                                          > > geophysical structure) - pointing out that a krater holds,
                                          contains,
                                          > > just as kratew means to rule, to hold the power in one's hands,
                                          to hold
                                          > > sway. The lexicon says krater actually comes from kerannumi "mix,
                                          > > mingle" but it's an interesting idea. Of course, the meaning of
                                          > > "Pantrocrator" according to the Patristic Greek lexicon
                                          is "Sovereign
                                          > > of all".
                                          > > Juvenaly
                                          > >
                                          > > >--- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "finckean" <finckea@> wrote:
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >> So the "Lord of praying women" became the "Lord of armies".
                                          > > >> Pantokratwr first appears in the Bible for sabaoth at 2 Samuel
                                          > > >> 5:10: "And David walked and got large, and the Lord God of
                                          hosts
                                          > > >> (pantokratwr) with him". Peculiar to the passage is the
                                          sequence
                                          > "and"
                                          > > >> + "the Lord" + "God" + "hosts", that appears only once more -
                                          at
                                          > Hosea
                                          > > >> 12:6, there with "the hosts" for "hosts". 2 Samuel 5:11 goes
                                          on:
                                          > "And
                                          > > >> Chiram, king of Tyre, sent messengers to David, and carpenters
                                          and
                                          > > >> masons; and they built a house for David". And verse 13: "And
                                          David
                                          > > >> took more girlfriends and wives from Jerusalem after he came
                                          from
                                          > > >> Hebron, and there were brought forth to him more sons and
                                          > daughters".
                                          > > >> Since there was no temple in Jerusalem (see 2 Samuel 7:2),
                                          David's
                                          > > >> house was an ersatz-temple. Perhaps LXX introduced the odd
                                          word
                                          > > >> pantokratwr to draw a parallel between the sin Of Eli's sons,
                                          which
                                          > > >> transpired at the door of a tent housing the ark (1 Samuel
                                          2:22),
                                          > while
                                          > > >> Samuel slept in a house called "the temple" (2 Samuel 3:3),
                                          with
                                          > > >> David's voluminous procreation in a "house of cedars" (2 Samuel
                                          > 7:2) -
                                          > > >> see the list of the Jerusalm begotten at 2 Samuel 5:14-16 -,
                                          > while the
                                          > > >> ark resided in a tent. 2 Samuel 7 is one big prayer for
                                          forgiveness
                                          > > >> for this sin.
                                          > > >> Andrew Fincke
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
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