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Cainan in the Greek OT - Genesis 10:24 and 11:12

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  • schmuel
    Hi Folks, If possible I am looking for the exact manuscript breakdown of the verses below in the Greek OT. Especially that would include Vaticanus and
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 28, 2007
      Hi Folks,

        If possible I am looking for the exact manuscript breakdown of the verses below
      in the Greek OT.  Especially that would include Vaticanus and Sinaiticus and
      Alexandrinus
      .

        Any other pertinent LXX references. (Bezae, the mass of later Byzantine
      manuscripts, etc) would be helpful but less consequent. 

          I do not think these verses are on any pre-Vaticanus fragments.

         There are apparently Tanach Genesis chronologies in Josephus
      (Antiquities Bk1,Ch 6.4 is the only direct reference given).  His text,
      often thought to be Greek, does not mention Cainan.

      http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/josephus/ant1.html
      Shem, the third son of Noah, had five sons...

      And Julius Africanus works from Luke
      http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-06/anf06-48.htm#P2147_610961
      Epistle to Aristides ch. 3

      Not Philo though ..  The Samaritan Penteteuch may have the reference
      to Cainan in some form in Genesis.  That is referenced but unconfirmed.
       
        There are other references that are not straight textual.  The Book of Jubilees and
      the "Sefer ha-Yashar"  are mentioned in the Wikipedia article.  However these
      can fit in with a number of different understanding.

          Also there are references that Irenaeus and Origen reference Cainan in some manner
      that argues for its omission from their Greek OT .. that is unconfirmed. Augustine is the
      first early church writer to include it, according to one writer. Most of that I can probably
      find separately although any assistance is appreciated.

      =====================================================
      King James Bible (Masoretic Text)

      Genesis 10:22
      The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram.

      Genesis 10:24
      And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber.

      Genesis 11:12-13
      And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
      And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years,
      and begat sons and daughters.

      ===========================================
      Brenton

      Genesis 10:22
      Sons of Sem, Elam, and Assur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram, and Cainan.

      Genesis 10:24
      And Arphaxad begot Cainan and Cainan begot Sala. And Sala begot Heber.

      Genesis 11:12-13
      And Arphaxad lived a hundred and thirty-five years, and begot Cainan.
      And Arphaxad lived after he had begotten Cainan, four hundred years,
      and begot sons and daughters, and died.
      And Cainan lived a hundred and thirty years and begot Sala.

      From an earlier discussion on the LXX forum:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lxx/message/1860
      Re: [lxx] Luke 3:36 and the LXX - Steve Puluka
      According to Swete's handbook A omits KAINAN in 10:22 and uses the form
      KAINAM in 10:24. Rahlfs confirms the latter but not the former, there
      are no variant listed for 10:22 at all there.
      No variant on KAINAN is listed in either edition for 11:12-13.

      And an early reference.

      John Gill
      http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/luke/gill/luke3.htm
      it indeed stands in the present copies of the Septuagint, but was not originally there;

      (which manuscripts would Gill be referencing ?  Sinaiticus was not yet found.)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
      Vaticanus is Genesis 1:1 - 46:28a (31 leaves) ... lost and have been filled by a recent hand.

      Perhaps his reference is to Vaticanus .. or the mixed reading in Alexandrinus ?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinaiticus
      Sinaiticus .. parts of Genesis ... were later found

      So specifics have been hard to find.

      ==========================
      ADDITIONAL SECONDARY VERSES .. SAME QUESTION

      King James Bible

      1 Chronicles 1:18
      And Arphaxad begat Shelah, and Shelah begat Eber.

      1 Chronicles 1:24
      Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah

      =========

      Brenton
      1 Chr 1:18     Arphaxad begat Cainan and Cainan begat Salah. and Salah begat Eber.
      1 Chr 1:24  "Arphaxad, Cainan" (some Septuagint)

      ========================================================

         Any help appreciated.

      Shalom,
      Steven Avery
      Queens, NY
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

    • David Hindley
      Steven, You ask:
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 29, 2007
        Steven,

        You ask:

        <<If possible I am looking for the exact manuscript breakdown of the verses below
        in the Greek OT. Especially that would include Vaticanus and Sinaiticus and
        Alexandrinus.

        Any other pertinent LXX references. (Bezae, the mass of later Byzantine
        manuscripts, etc) would be helpful but less consequent.

        I do not think these verses are on any pre-Vaticanus fragments.

        There are apparently Tanach Genesis chronologies in Josephus
        (Antiquities Bk1,Ch 6.4 is the only direct reference given). His text,
        often thought to be Greek, does not mention Cainan.

        [...]

        And Julius Africanus works from Luke

        [...]

        Not Philo though .. The Samaritan Penteteuch may have the reference
        to Cainan in some form in Genesis. That is referenced but unconfirmed.

        There are other references that are not straight textual. The Book of Jubilees and
        the "Sefer ha-Yashar" are mentioned in the Wikipedia article. However these
        can fit in with a number of different understanding.

        Also there are references that Irenaeus and Origen reference Cainan in some manner
        that argues for its omission from their Greek OT .. that is unconfirmed. Augustine is the
        first early church writer to include it, according to one writer. Most of that I can probably
        find separately although any assistance is appreciated.

        [...]

        ADDITIONAL SECONDARY VERSES .. SAME QUESTION

        King James Bible:

        1 Chronicles 1:18
        And Arphaxad begat Shelah, and Shelah begat Eber.

        1 Chronicles 1:24
        Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah

        Brenton:

        1 Chr 1:18
        Arphaxad begat Cainan and Cainan begat Salah. and Salah begat Eber.

        1 Chr 1:24
        "Arphaxad, Cainan" (some Septuagint) >>

        Some while back (the file is dated 2001) I compared the chronologies of the ancient patriarchs as found in MT, Lxx, SP, Josephus and Jubilees. It gives their stated ages of birth, birth of sons, and deaths (*where available) and computes the relative date in "Anno Mundi" era. This file (CHRONOLx.DOC or RTF) is out there in cyberspace, at least somewhere. In 2006, someone brought an error to my attention and I revised the file, showing the Lxx chronologies in both a Vaticanus and an Alexandrinus version.

        If you'd like the most recent update to the file emailed to you, let me know. Can't help with Philo or the Church fathers.

        Respectfully,

        Dave Hindley
        Cleveland, Ohio USA
      • Ivan KArel
        Dear All. Any knows what s LXX version that Paul,Matthew and another NT writer quoted?? Thanks Ivan Karel ... Don t pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 29, 2007
          Dear All.
           
          Any knows  what's LXX version that Paul,Matthew and another NT writer quoted??
           
          Thanks
           
          Ivan Karel


          Don't pick lemons.
          See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
        • Bill Ross
          No one knows. Bill Ross http://www.bibleshockers.com http://www.broadjam.com/billross ... From: Ivan KArel To: lxx@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 31, 2007
            No one knows.
             
            Bill Ross
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 1:03 AM
            Subject: [lxx] LXX version

            Dear All.
             
            Any knows  what's LXX version that Paul,Matthew and another NT writer quoted??
             
            Thanks
             
            Ivan Karel
          • Pat and Jim Ellis
            And there s always the possibility they were paraphrasing from memory and not quoting from a certain version. Bill Ross wrote: No
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 31, 2007
              And there's always the possibility they were paraphrasing from memory and not quoting from a certain version.

              Bill Ross <BillRoss@...> wrote:
              No one knows.
               
              Bill Ross
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 1:03 AM
              Subject: [lxx] LXX version

              Dear All.
               
              Any knows  what's LXX version that Paul,Matthew and another NT writer quoted??
               
              Thanks
               
              Ivan Karel

            • Ivan KArel
              All. Thks for the explanation. Concerning Pat & Jim email, coud you give me some example ? Thks Ivan Karel Pat and Jim Ellis wrote: And
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 1, 2007
                All. Thks for the explanation.
                 
                Concerning Pat & Jim email, coud you give me some example ?
                 
                Thks
                Ivan Karel

                Pat and Jim Ellis <jim@...> wrote:
                And there's always the possibility they were paraphrasing from memory and not quoting from a certain version.

                Bill Ross <BillRoss@norisksoft ware.com> wrote:
                No one knows.
                 
                Bill Ross
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 1:03 AM
                Subject: [lxx] LXX version

                Dear All.
                 
                Any knows  what's LXX version that Paul,Matthew and another NT writer quoted??
                 
                Thanks
                 
                Ivan Karel



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              • Pat and Jim Ellis
                Ivan KArel wrote: All. Thks for the explanation. Concerning Pat & Jim email, coud you give me some example ? Thks Ivan Karel ... No, I
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 2, 2007
                  Ivan KArel <ivankarel@...> wrote:
                  All. Thks for the explanation.
                   
                  Concerning Pat & Jim email, coud you give me some example ?
                   
                  Thks
                  Ivan Karel
                  ----------------------
                  No, I can't give any specific example. What I was thinking  of was that when a person would be writing or speaking he might just quote a verse without having a document before him to copy from. As he would quote it, it might not be exactly as written or he might have just paraphrased it as he spoke or wrote. For example, I have paraphrased the words of Jesus when I have said "...unless a person is born again..." instead of "...except a man be born again..." as it reads in the KJV. Also, when ministering in a hospital and anointing a person with oil, I some times quote james 5:13-18. In the KJV it says "...The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much..." When I quote that I usually just say, "The effective fervent prayer of a righteous person avails much..." I am not deliberately misquoting or twisting the Scriptures, I am just paraphrasing. I think most of us have done that and I am just assuming that in the first century they probably did the same thing.
                  James Ellis
                  http://www.geocities.com/patandjimellis/index.html





                • Harold P. Scanlin
                  ... I agree. Listers may find some further bibliographic leads in my brief survey found at The
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 2, 2007
                    Bill Ross wrote:

                    No one knows.

                    I agree. Listers may find some further bibliographic leads in my brief survey found at <http://www.ubs-translations.org/cms/index.php?id=41,0,0,1,0,0> "The Text of the Septuagint in the New Testament."

                    Harold P. Scanlin

                     
                    Bill Ross




                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 1:03 AM
                    Subject: [lxx] LXX version

                    Dear All.
                     
                    Any knows  what's LXX version that Paul,Matthew and another NT writer quoted??
                     
                    Thanks
                     
                    Ivan Karel

                  • Ivan KArel
                    Dear All.Many thks. I appreciate your efforts. To Harold..thks for the web. Regards Ivan Karel Harold P. Scanlin wrote: Bill
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 3, 2007
                      Dear All.Many thks.
                       
                      I appreciate your efforts. To Harold..thks for the web.
                       
                      Regards
                       
                      Ivan Karel

                      "Harold P. Scanlin" <harold.scanlin@...> wrote:
                      Bill Ross wrote:
                      No one knows.

                      I agree. Listers may find some further bibliographic leads in my brief survey found at <http://www.ubs- translations. org/cms/index. php?id=41, 0,0,1,0,0> "The Text of the Septuagint in the New Testament."

                      Harold P. Scanlin

                       
                      Bill Ross




                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 1:03 AM
                      Subject: [lxx] LXX version

                      Dear All.
                       
                      Any knows  what's LXX version that Paul,Matthew and another NT writer quoted??
                       
                      Thanks
                       
                      Ivan Karel

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