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Proverbs 20:22 LXX

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  • James Spinti
    Just one question: Where is it? Proverbs 20 jumps from 13 to verse 23. Is this a section that is missing? My Rahlfs has no notes in the apparatus, and I
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 14, 2006
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      Just one question: Where is it? Proverbs 20 jumps from 13 to verse 23.
      Is this a section that is missing? My Rahlfs has no notes in the
      apparatus, and I checked the NET on-line by Johann Cook with out
      success.

      Thanks,
      James

      ________________________________
      James Spinti
      Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
      Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
      Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
      jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
      Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
      Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
      Fax: 574-269-6788
    • Ernest Steadman
      You may have stumbled upon the same thing that happened with the last twelve verses of Mark, added to the Latin Vugate out of whole cloth by St. Jerome and
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 14, 2006
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        You may have stumbled upon the same thing that happened with the last twelve verses of Mark, added to the Latin Vugate out of whole cloth by St. Jerome and others.
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:33 AM
        Subject: [lxx] Proverbs 20:22 LXX

        Just one question: Where is it? Proverbs 20 jumps from 13 to verse 23.
        Is this a section that is missing? My Rahlfs has no notes in the
        apparatus, and I checked the NET on-line by Johann Cook with out
        success.

        Thanks,
        James

        ____________ _________ _________ __
        James Spinti
        Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
        Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
        Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
        jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
        Web: http://www.eisenbra uns.com
        Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
        Fax: 574-269-6788

      • Fr. John Whiteford
        If you are referring to Mark 16:9-20, it is not true that they were added by St. Jerome, out of whole cloth or otherwise. There are only 3 Greek manuscripts
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 14, 2006
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          If you are referring to Mark 16:9-20, it is not true that they were added by St. Jerome, out of whole cloth or otherwise.
           
          There are only 3 Greek manuscripts that do not have those verses, and only two are really ancient (3rd to 4th century), and one has a blank spot where those verses would go, and the other has the ending written in twice the size, which if it were written in the normal size, would have left the same blank spot, just big enough for those verses.
           
          Two good books on the subject are:
           
          1) The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, by William Farmer
           
          2) And a book by John Burgon, with the same title:
           
          -Fr. John Whiteford
           


          Ernest Steadman <easteadman@...> wrote:
          You may have stumbled upon the same thing that happened with the last twelve verses of Mark, added to the Latin Vugate out of whole cloth by St. Jerome and others.
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:33 AM
          Subject: [lxx] Proverbs 20:22 LXX

          Just one question: Where is it? Proverbs 20 jumps from 13 to verse 23.
          Is this a section that is missing? My Rahlfs has no notes in the
          apparatus, and I checked the NET on-line by Johann Cook with out
          success.

          Thanks,
          James

          ____________ _________ _________ __
          James Spinti
          Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
          Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
          Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
          jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
          Web: http://www.eisenbra uns.com
          Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
          Fax: 574-269-6788




          Fr. John Whiteford
          St. Jonah Orthodox Church
          Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjonah.org/
          ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodox-rocor/
          Parish News: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintjonah/
          Blog: http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/
        • Dale Ogilvie
          In my text Proverbs 20:20-22 occurs between Prov 20:9 and Prov 20:11. It is also present in the apostles bible derived from Lancelot Brenton s translation.
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 14, 2006
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            In my text Proverbs 20:20-22 occurs between Prov 20:9 and Prov 20:11.
            It is also present in the "apostles bible" derived from Lancelot
            Brenton's translation. Verses 14-19 are missing in my text, but these
            are noted as present in Grabe's edition.

            I'm not sure what my "Biblia Polyglotta" edition is, as the front
            matter is in latin.

            After "the greek old testament, according to the seventy" it has:

            id est, vetus testamentum, secundum, setupaginta seniorum,
            interpretationem, juxta exemplar vaticanum, adjiciuntur, editionis
            grabianae variae lectiones.

            Regards

            Dale

            --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "James Spinti" <jspinti@...> wrote:
            >
            > Just one question: Where is it? Proverbs 20 jumps from 13 to verse 23.
            > Is this a section that is missing? My Rahlfs has no notes in the
            > apparatus, and I checked the NET on-line by Johann Cook with out
            > success.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > James
            >
            > ________________________________
            > James Spinti
            > Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
            > Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
            > Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
            > jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
            > Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
            > Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
            > Fax: 574-269-6788
            >
          • Steve Puluka
            ... The LXX version of Proverbs is similar to the situation in Jeremiah. There are substantial differences in the order of largely the same material. In
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 15, 2006
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              on 11/14/06 7:33 AM, James Spinti at jspinti@... wrote:

              > Just one question: Where is it? Proverbs 20 jumps from 13 to verse 23.
              > Is this a section that is missing? My Rahlfs has no notes in the
              > apparatus, and I checked the NET on-line by Johann Cook with out
              > success.

              The LXX version of Proverbs is similar to the situation in Jeremiah. There
              are substantial differences in the order of largely the same material. In
              Proverbs the material rearranges and has some textual additions after
              chapter 22.

              See the chart and discussion on pages 123-127 of:

              Washington, Harold C. Wealth and poverty in the Instruction of Amenemope and
              the Hebrew Proverbs. Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1994.


              Steve Puluka
              1249 Biltmore Avenue
              Pittsburgh PA 15216
              412.344.6523
              steve@...
              http://www.puluka.com
            • David Hindley
              Steve, This is interesting. I was aware that the order of Jeremiah was different in the Greek translation than in the Hebrew. Similar rearrangements of
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 15, 2006
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                Steve,

                This is interesting. I was aware that the order of Jeremiah was different in the Greek translation than in the Hebrew. Similar
                rearrangements of Ezra-Nehemiah are found in 1 Esdras.

                As many know, a debate rages over the techniques available to editors in ancient times. Critics have proposed solutions ranging from
                something very much like modern "cut and paste" editing (where texts are laid out, key texts marked in some way, and then recombined
                into a new document) to virtually no editing of physical texts at all (more like a fluid oral tradition rearranged from memory).
                Each end of the editorial solution spectrum has its own unique evidence for and against.

                Would you be able to supply me (read: "us") with a short bibliography of works that deal with the editorial techniques used to
                arrange (or rearrange) these texts?

                It would be greatly appreciated!

                Respectfully,

                Dave Hindley
                Cleveland, Ohio USA

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Steve Puluka
                Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 6:05 AM

                <<The LXX version of Proverbs is similar to the situation in Jeremiah. There are substantial differences in the order of largely
                the same material. In Proverbs the material rearranges and has some textual additions after chapter 22.

                See the chart and discussion on pages 123-127 of: Washington, Harold C. Wealth and poverty in the Instruction of Amenemope and the
                Hebrew Proverbs. Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1994.>>
              • Ernest Steadman
                Appreciate the material references, Fr. Whiteford. I will read them. The latest material I have gives credit to St. Jerome and one other for including the
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 15, 2006
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                  Appreciate the material references, Fr. Whiteford.  I will read them. 
                   
                  The latest material I have gives credit to St. Jerome and one other for including the twelve verses, even though they knew of and had access to the manuscripts which did not have the verses.  And, because of the original significance of the resulting Latin Vulgate, succeeding interpretations of the Bible followed pretty much the same thought to include the verses.
                   
                  It is important to me only in that those verses are used by those who think by handling poisonous snakes and drinking poison, they prove their faith in the Savior.  Those verses are the basis by which they hang their worship.
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 10:42 PM
                  Subject: Re: [lxx] Proverbs 20:22 LXX

                  If you are referring to Mark 16:9-20, it is not true that they were added by St. Jerome, out of whole cloth or otherwise.
                   
                  There are only 3 Greek manuscripts that do not have those verses, and only two are really ancient (3rd to 4th century), and one has a blank spot where those verses would go, and the other has the ending written in twice the size, which if it were written in the normal size, would have left the same blank spot, just big enough for those verses.
                   
                  Two good books on the subject are:
                   
                  1) The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, by William Farmer
                   
                  2) And a book by John Burgon, with the same title:
                   
                  -Fr. John Whiteford
                   


                  Ernest Steadman <easteadman@alltel. net> wrote:
                  You may have stumbled upon the same thing that happened with the last twelve verses of Mark, added to the Latin Vugate out of whole cloth by St. Jerome and others.
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:33 AM
                  Subject: [lxx] Proverbs 20:22 LXX

                  Just one question: Where is it? Proverbs 20 jumps from 13 to verse 23.
                  Is this a section that is missing? My Rahlfs has no notes in the
                  apparatus, and I checked the NET on-line by Johann Cook with out
                  success.

                  Thanks,
                  James

                  ____________ _________ _________ __
                  James Spinti
                  Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                  Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                  Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                  jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                  Web: http://www.eisenbra uns.com
                  Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                  Fax: 574-269-6788




                  Fr. John Whiteford
                  St. Jonah Orthodox Church
                  Parish Home Page: http://www.saintjon ah.org/
                  ROCOR Discussion Group: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/orthodox- rocor/
                  Parish News: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/saintjonah /
                  Blog: http://fatherjohn. blogspot. com/

                • Matthew Johnson
                  ... [snip] ... Why would that stop you? O tempore, o mores! ... The punctuation looks wrong, but other than that, this should mean: that is, the old testament,
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 16, 2006
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                    --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Ogilvie" <deoiq9502@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > In my text Proverbs 20:20-22 occurs between Prov 20:9 and Prov 20:11.

                    [snip]

                    > I'm not sure what my "Biblia Polyglotta" edition is, as the front
                    > matter is in latin.

                    Why would that stop you? O tempore, o mores!


                    > After "the greek old testament, according to the seventy" it has:
                    >
                    > id est, vetus testamentum, secundum, setupaginta [sic] seniorum,
                    > interpretationem, juxta exemplar vaticanum, adjiciuntur, editionis
                    > grabianae variae lectiones.

                    The punctuation looks wrong, but other than that, this should mean:

                    that is, the old testament, according to the interpretation of the
                    seventy elders, next to the Vatican exemplar, are added the various
                    readings of Grabian's edition.

                    It is not a complete sentence. It looks like it was have preceded with
                    a few more (than you quoted) English words to make a complete
                    sentence. This probably would have made clear what "vetus testamentum"
                    really agrees with too.

                    I have not tried to re-order the terms in to better English word
                    order, but I think you get the idea.

                    [snip]
                  • Matthew Johnson
                    ... last twelve verses of Mark, No. It is not the same. ... ??? As others have pointed out, these verses are in Greek manuscripts too. I would not be surprised
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 16, 2006
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                      --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Ernest Steadman" <easteadman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > You may have stumbled upon the same thing that happened with the
                      last twelve verses of Mark,

                      No. It is not the same.

                      > added to the Latin Vugate out of whole cloth by St. Jerome and others.

                      ??? As others have pointed out, these verses are in Greek manuscripts
                      too. I would not be surprised if some of them predate Jerome.

                      But it is pretty clear that St. Jerome did NOT add these verses.

                      The case of Prov 20:22 is almost the complete opposite case. Lots of
                      verses in the LXX of Proverbs occur in different places in the MT, or
                      in noticeably different forms, or even not at all. Such variation is
                      unheard of in extant manuscripts of Mark in any language.
                    • Dale Ogilvie
                      ... O what? I think you understand my problem... ... Thankyou for your translation, I was hoping someone on the list would provide the necessary! The commas
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 16, 2006
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                        --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Johnson" <mej1960@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Ogilvie" <deoiq9502@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I'm not sure what my "Biblia Polyglotta" edition is, as the front
                        > > matter is in latin.
                        >
                        > Why would that stop you? O tempore, o mores!

                        O what? I think you understand my problem...

                        > > After "the greek old testament, according to the seventy" it has:
                        > >
                        > > id est, vetus testamentum, secundum, setupaginta [sic] seniorum,
                        > > interpretationem, juxta exemplar vaticanum, adjiciuntur, editionis
                        > > grabianae variae lectiones.
                        >
                        > The punctuation looks wrong, but other than that, this should mean:
                        >
                        > that is, the old testament, according to the interpretation of the
                        > seventy elders, next to the Vatican exemplar, are added the various
                        > readings of Grabian's edition.

                        Thankyou for your translation, I was hoping someone on the list would
                        provide the necessary! The commas don't exist in the original text.
                        The text comes from the title page of the book, I replaced new lines
                        with commas. So it looks like this on the page:

                        ID EST
                        VETUS TESTAMENTUM
                        SECUNDUM
                        etc...

                        You may view an image of this title page here:
                        http://homepages.maxnet.co.nz/dale/lxx.jpg

                        So, when the latin title says "next to the Vatican exemplar, are added
                        the various readings of Grabian's edition" might this mean that my
                        text is that of Codex Vaticanus, with variants from Grabe's edition
                        (Alexandrinus). There is quite a bit more describing my text in a
                        "PRAEFATIO", but I'm latin-challenged.

                        Dale
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