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Re: [lxx] Re: Order of LXX books

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  • bradley anderson
    Thanks for this history. I will also hunt down the Cooper book. I m assuming that the LXX order of books as currently found in published editions in Greece is
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 31, 2006
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      Thanks for this history.  I will also hunt down the Cooper book.
       
      I'm assuming that the LXX order of books as currently found in published editions in Greece is long-standing in origin.  If anyone has a reference that discusses this issue in the Greek context, I would appreciate that, as well.
       


      Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...> wrote:
      --- In lxx@yahoogroups. com, "andersonbradley" <andersonbradley@ ...> wrote:
      >Would someone be willing to comment on the history of the
      >differences between the order of books of the Old Testament
      >in currently published Greek Bibles and currently published
      >Church Slavonic Bibles?

      >The Slavonic Bible seems generally to approximate the order
      >in use in the West more than does the Greek. And Slavonic
      >and Greek Bibles each contain one book that the other one
      >doesn't.

      Here is what I have been able to find addressing your question.

      Tsurkan (http://www.slavbibl e.narod.ru/ _0188.htm)
      proposes the explanation that it was the "Mongol-Tatar hurricane" that
      prevented the compilation of a single codex containing all Scripture
      anywhere but in the free north. And it did indeed happen
      first at Novgorod in 1499.

      But a little further down the author admits that this was
      not the only factor, just the predominant one. He also
      mentions a rising sense of national consciousness and the
      invention of printing (which had not reached Russia yet, but
      had already happened in 1450).

      So what is the relevance of this to your question? Well,
      since it was so late that the first complete codex of
      Scriptures was compiled, it is understandable that certain
      books were first translated that late as well (at least no
      earlier translations survived to 1499). In particular, when
      they did the Gennadius version, they translated certain
      parts of Proverbs and certain entire books (mostly
      deuterocanonical) from the Vulgate. But once they made the
      decision to do that, this is a motive to follow the Vulgate
      order, too, at least approximately.

      http://www.slavbibl e.narod.ru/ _0191.htm gives a list of
      which books were found to be wholly or largely missing.

      Yet reading further, the author tells us that Gennadius did
      not rely entirely on the Vulgate, but also on a
      Croatian/South Slavic collection brought to Novgorod by a
      Eastern Rite Catholic monk. But those weren't complete either.

      Needless to say, relying on sources like this, he was
      accused of being too cozy with Catholicism. But his work
      stuck anyway.

      This was also the period when they first made a serious
      measure to control the text. This was when they made the
      rule that to copy one biblical text, you had to have two or
      more copies to compare against.
      http://www.slavbibl e.narod.ru/ _0193.htm

      All the above links are to the work "The Slavic Translation
      of the Bible" (Ch. 7) by Roman Klavdievich Tsurkan. Unfortunately,
      all but the introductory page are in image format, so it can
      be difficult to load. And there aren't enough people on this list who
      can read that language anyway;)



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    • Robert Kraft
      There is a good section in the old Intro to the LXX/OG by Swete that covers this problem as it stood a century ago (not much has changed since -- the order of
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 2, 2006
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        There is a good section in the old Intro to the LXX/OG by Swete that
        covers this problem as it stood a century ago (not much has changed since
        -- the order of books varied quite a bit, and pretty much depended on the
        development of the mega-codex in the 4th century and later; occasionally
        one gets an earlier list, as from Origen and perhaps Melito, but there is
        not much evidence of detailed standardization within the general
        categories of law, prophets, history, psalms and poetry). The Swete volume
        is online -- search google or the like for it.

        Bob Kraft

        > Thanks for this history. I will also hunt down the Cooper book.
        >
        > I'm assuming that the LXX order of books as currently found in published editions in Greece is long-standing in origin. If anyone has a reference that discusses this issue in the Greek context, I would appreciate that, as well.
        >
        >
        >
        > Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...> wrote:
        > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "andersonbradley" <andersonbradley@...> wrote:
        > >Would someone be willing to comment on the history of the
        > >differences between the order of books of the Old Testament
        > >in currently published Greek Bibles and currently published
        > >Church Slavonic Bibles?
        >
        > >The Slavonic Bible seems generally to approximate the order
        > >in use in the West more than does the Greek. And Slavonic
        > >and Greek Bibles each contain one book that the other one
        > >doesn't.
        >
        > Here is what I have been able to find addressing your question.
        >
        > Tsurkan (http://www.slavbible.narod.ru/_0188.htm)
        > proposes the explanation that it was the "Mongol-Tatar hurricane" that
        > prevented the compilation of a single codex containing all Scripture
        > anywhere but in the free north. And it did indeed happen
        > first at Novgorod in 1499.
        >
        > But a little further down the author admits that this was
        > not the only factor, just the predominant one. He also
        > mentions a rising sense of national consciousness and the
        > invention of printing (which had not reached Russia yet, but
        > had already happened in 1450).
        >
        > So what is the relevance of this to your question? Well,
        > since it was so late that the first complete codex of
        > Scriptures was compiled, it is understandable that certain
        > books were first translated that late as well (at least no
        > earlier translations survived to 1499). In particular, when
        > they did the Gennadius version, they translated certain
        > parts of Proverbs and certain entire books (mostly
        > deuterocanonical) from the Vulgate. But once they made the
        > decision to do that, this is a motive to follow the Vulgate
        > order, too, at least approximately.
        >
        > http://www.slavbible.narod.ru/_0191.htm gives a list of
        > which books were found to be wholly or largely missing.
        >
        > Yet reading further, the author tells us that Gennadius did
        > not rely entirely on the Vulgate, but also on a
        > Croatian/South Slavic collection brought to Novgorod by a
        > Eastern Rite Catholic monk. But those weren't complete either.
        >
        > Needless to say, relying on sources like this, he was
        > accused of being too cozy with Catholicism. But his work
        > stuck anyway.
        >
        > This was also the period when they first made a serious
        > measure to control the text. This was when they made the
        > rule that to copy one biblical text, you had to have two or
        > more copies to compare against.
        > http://www.slavbible.narod.ru/_0193.htm
        >
        > All the above links are to the work "The Slavic Translation
        > of the Bible" (Ch. 7) by Roman Klavdievich Tsurkan. Unfortunately,
        > all but the introductory page are in image format, so it can
        > be difficult to load. And there aren't enough people on this list who
        > can read that language anyway;)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1�/min.
        > --0-1329952799-1154391553=:41284
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        > <html><body>
        >
        >
        > <div>Thanks for this history.  I will also hunt down the Cooper book.</div> <div> </div> <div>I'm assuming that the LXX order of books as currently found in published editions in Greece is long-standing in origin.  If anyone has a reference that discusses this issue in the Greek context, I would appreciate that, as well.</div> <div> </div> <div><BR><BR><B><I>Matthew Johnson <mej1960@...></I></B> wrote:</div> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><!-- Network content --> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <div>--- In <A href="mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com">lxx@yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>, "andersonbradley"
        > <andersonbradley@<WBR>...> wrote:<BR>>Would someone be willing to comment on the history of the<BR>>differences between the order of books of the Old Testament<BR>>in currently published Greek Bibles and currently published<BR>>Church Slavonic Bibles?<BR><BR>>The Slavonic Bible seems generally to approximate the order<BR>>in use in the West more than does the Greek. And Slavonic<BR>>and Greek Bibles each contain one book that the other one<BR>>doesn't.<BR><BR>Here is what I have been able to find addressing your question.<BR><BR>Tsurkan (<A href="http://www.slavbible.narod.ru/_0188.htm">http://www.slavbibl<WBR>e.narod.ru/<WBR>_0188.htm</A>)<BR>proposes the explanation that it was the "Mongol-Tatar hurricane" that<BR>prevented the compilation of a single codex containing all Scripture<BR>anywhere but in the free north. And it did indeed happen<BR>first at Novgorod in 1499.<BR><BR>But a little further down the author admits that this was<BR>not
        > the only factor, just the predominant one. He also<BR>mentions a rising sense of national consciousness and the<BR>invention of printing (which had not reached Russia yet, but<BR>had already happened in 1450).<BR><BR>So what is the relevance of this to your question? Well,<BR>since it was so late that the first complete codex of<BR>Scriptures was compiled, it is understandable that certain<BR>books were first translated that late as well (at least no<BR>earlier translations survived to 1499). In particular, when<BR>they did the Gennadius version, they translated certain<BR>parts of Proverbs and certain entire books (mostly<BR>deuterocanonical) from the Vulgate. But once they made the<BR>decision to do that, this is a motive to follow the Vulgate<BR>order, too, at least approximately.<BR><BR><A href="http://www.slavbible.narod.ru/_0191.htm">http://www.slavbibl<WBR>e.narod.ru/<WBR>_0191.htm</A> gives a list of<BR>which books were found to be wholly or largely
        > missing.<BR><BR>Yet reading further, the author tells us that Gennadius did<BR>not rely entirely on the Vulgate, but also on a<BR>Croatian/South Slavic collection brought to Novgorod by a<BR>Eastern Rite Catholic monk. But those weren't complete either.<BR><BR>Needless to say, relying on sources like this, he was<BR>accused of being too cozy with Catholicism. But his work<BR>stuck anyway.<BR><BR>This was also the period when they first made a serious<BR>measure to control the text. This was when they made the<BR>rule that to copy one biblical text, you had to have two or<BR>more copies to compare against.<BR><A href="http://www.slavbible.narod.ru/_0193.htm">http://www.slavbibl<WBR>e.narod.ru/<WBR>_0193.htm</A><BR><BR>All the above links are to the work "The Slavic Translation<BR>of the Bible" (Ch. 7) by Roman Klavdievich Tsurkan. Unfortunately,<BR>all but the introductory page are in image format, so it can<BR>be difficult to load. And there aren't enough people on this
        > list who<BR>can read that language anyway;)<BR><BR></div></DIV><!--End group email --></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>
        > <hr size=1>Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com"> Great rates starting at 1�/min.
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        --
        Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
        227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
        kraft@...
        http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
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