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Re: [lxx] Fw: LXX and Talmud

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  • Steve Puluka
    ... Arkadi: MT,the LXX, and NT were all developing for centuries. James and Tatiana Miller I m glad to see you re following a line of inquiry I
    Message 1 of 15 , May 28, 2000
      ----- Original Message -----
      Arkadi: <snip>
      MT,the LXX, and NT were all developing for centuries.

      James and Tatiana Miller <snip>
      I'm glad to see you're following a line of inquiry I had hoped my last post
      would bring up - i.e., the matter of textual fluidity. A serious reflection
      on these texts - proto-MT, LXX, NT and Talmud - reveals that textual
      fluidity is a rule against which the textual fixation by the Masoretes
      appears as a relatively late and novel development.

      Steve responds:
      -----N.B. just a quick outline see the full story in the references
      below--------
      Masoretic Text--refers to a system of accents on the "unpointed" Hebrew text
      of scripture. This fix the vowels, accents and punctuation of the text and
      provide notes on how the text is to be chanted. There are three systems
      extant. The oldest is the Palestinian system from late fifth or early sixth
      century CE. This marks only the disjunctive accents (periods, commas, full
      or half stops). The Babylonian system is more extensive. The final
      Rabbinic version was completed 900 CE by Ben Asher and Ben Naphtali.

      While the full form of the MT was not fixed until a relatively late date,
      this does not mean the text was developing in the same way the LXX was. In
      the language of text criticism there are clearly several families of text
      for the LXX and the early Christian period saw some deliberate editing
      together of these. With the MT the basic text was fixed BEFORE the process
      began. The consonate only text was constructed in a way that had built in
      error checking for the scribes. These were fixed before the first basic
      pointing was added in the Palestinian version. These were never changed
      even when the rabbis found clear errors. They simply noted and wrote
      commentaries on these errors. They changed nothing.

      James and Tatiana Miller <snip>

      The Russians likely use a Slavonic translation of the Greek service books
      for OT lections and thus probably agree with those found in the
      Prophetologion. (Any input on this?). But the "official" Russian Bible
      (approved by the Synod in the mid-19th century) translates the OT from
      Hebrew. Doesn't this - i.e., two parallel renditions of the same OT
      material - show another instance of textual fluidity among Christians? I
      know of no full text of the OT in Russian apart from the BFBS (British and
      Foreign Bible Societies - later UBS) translation which was, apparently,
      ultimately the one sanctioned by the Synod in mid-19th century. The Ostrog
      Bible mentioned by Steve earlier would be a possibility, but I'm unsure of
      its origins. It seems like it may simply have been a translation of the
      Greek column of one of the "Polyglots" being produced in Europe in the
      mid-second millennium. Anyone have further input on this? I've recently
      learned of a Romanian edition of the entire Bible from mid-17th century that
      was allegedly translated from biblical MSS, as opposed to the Polyglots
      (which would have shown a more eclectic text incorporating readings from
      several MSS). Anyone with further info on that?

      Steve responds:
      -----N.B. just a quick outline see the full story in the references
      below--------

      Eastern European churches received Orthodoxy from Greek Constantinople.
      There were translations made of scripture and services from the Greek to Old
      Church Slavonic. Most services continued to be developed in this language
      in all the national churches. This language changed very little over the
      centuries and soon was quite out of sync with the local language in terms of
      grammar, less so in vocabulary. Church histories denote full translations
      of the LXX happening by the tenth century but the oldest one extant is the
      Ostrog bible mentioned above.

      I'm not surprised that UBS groups would be working from the Hebrew nor am I
      surprised the 19th century Russia would accept such translations. By this
      time Russian liturgical practices had moved from their native musical forms
      to western choral practices that we still see today. Russian churches moved
      from Italian to German choir renditions of the traditional services and the
      broader cultural contacts with the west encouraged this activity. I doubt
      many people even realized as they accepted the UBS translations what they
      were giving up. Let's face it. While there are some significant
      differences most of the text shows no meaning change from MT to LXX.

      Other jurisdictions like the Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians and western Slavs
      developed on a different track. For some of us ( I am Carpatho-Rusyn) a
      local language translation never happened, Church Slavonic served us well.
      We are still publishing Church Slavonic versions. My copy is from Lvov
      1909.

      Steve Puluka
      Consultar for Adult Education
      Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh

      References:

      Rabbi Steinsaltz, The Essential Talmud, Bantam books, NY, 1976.

      Rabbi Neusner, Introduction to Rabbinic Literature, Doubleday, NY, 1194.

      Rabbi Trepp, A history of the Jewish Experience,Hehrman House NY second
      edition 1973.

      Rabbi Robinson, Essential Judaism, Simon & Shuster, NY 2000.

      The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1962.

      Johan Von Gardner, Russian Church Singing Vol 1&2 english translation by
      Vladimir Morosan, St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, Crestwood NY.

      Bruce Metzger, Early Versions of the New Testament
      Sidney Jellicoe, The Septuagint in Modern Study
    • Will Pratt
      This is a bit off topic, but I know that we have a high density of Eastern Orthodox communicants on this list. Does the Greek New Testament text used by the E
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 10, 2001
        This is a bit off topic, but I know that we have a high density of Eastern
        Orthodox communicants on this list. Does the Greek New Testament text used
        by the E Orthodox church contain the so-called Johannine Coma, that is, does
        1 John 5:7 read "oti treiv eisin oi marturountev", or does it include the
        additional text "en tw ouranw o pathr o logov kai to agion pneuma kai outoi
        oi treiv en eisin"?

        Thanks

        Will

        --
        William L. Pratt, Ph.D., Curator of Invertebrates, Barrick Museum
        Mail Stop 4012, Univ. Nevada, Las Vegas 89154-4012
        (702) 895-1403; Fax (702) 895-3094; prattw@...
      • Bill W. Rodgers
        To Will Pratt: Yes, Will, the Orthodox NT does include the additional text in I John 5:7 beginning with en tw ouranw... Bill R.
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 10, 2001
          To Will Pratt: Yes, Will, the Orthodox NT does include the additional text in I
          John 5:7 beginning with "en tw ouranw..."

          Bill R.

          Will Pratt wrote:

          > This is a bit off topic, but I know that we have a high density of Eastern
          > Orthodox communicants on this list. Does the Greek New Testament text used
          > by the E Orthodox church contain the so-called Johannine Coma, that is, does
          > 1 John 5:7 read "oti treiv eisin oi marturountev", or does it include the
          > additional text "en tw ouranw o pathr o logov kai to agion pneuma kai outoi
          > oi treiv en eisin"?
          >
          > Thanks
          >
          > Will
          >
          > --
          > William L. Pratt, Ph.D., Curator of Invertebrates, Barrick Museum
          > Mail Stop 4012, Univ. Nevada, Las Vegas 89154-4012
          > (702) 895-1403; Fax (702) 895-3094; prattw@...
        • spuluka@hotmail.com
          Dear Will, While the Byzantine text form does contain the Johannine comma text, you may be interested to know that we do not have this reading in our
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 11, 2001
            Dear Will,

            While the Byzantine text form does contain the Johannine comma text, you may
            be interested to know that we do not have this reading in our lectionary.
            This is a notable hole in a lectionary that covers the vast majority of the
            New Testament every year.

            We read sections from 1 John, all of 2 and 3 during the prepartion period
            for the Great Fast. But 1 John 5:7 is not among the readings. No pericope
            from Revelation is part of the lectionary as well.

            Steve Puluka
            Cantor Holy Ghost Church
            Mckees Rocks PA


            >From: "Bill W. Rodgers" <billfred@...>
            >Reply-To: lxx@egroups.com
            >To: lxx@egroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [lxx] OT - Johannine coma in Eastern Orthodox NT
            >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:51:33 -0500
            >
            >To Will Pratt: Yes, Will, the Orthodox NT does include the additional text
            >in I
            >John 5:7 beginning with "en tw ouranw..."
            >
            >Bill R.
            >
            >Will Pratt wrote:
            >
            > > This is a bit off topic, but I know that we have a high density of
            >Eastern
            > > Orthodox communicants on this list. Does the Greek New Testament text
            >used
            > > by the E Orthodox church contain the so-called Johannine Coma, that is,
            >does
            > > 1 John 5:7 read "oti treiv eisin oi marturountev", or does it include
            >the
            > > additional text "en tw ouranw o pathr o logov kai to agion pneuma kai
            >outoi
            > > oi treiv en eisin"?
            > >
            > > Thanks
            > >
            > > Will
            > >
            > > --
            > > William L. Pratt, Ph.D., Curator of Invertebrates, Barrick Museum
            > > Mail Stop 4012, Univ. Nevada, Las Vegas 89154-4012
            > > (702) 895-1403; Fax (702) 895-3094; prattw@...
            >
            >
            >
            >

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          • Will Pratt
            ... Steve, That is very interesting. As I expect you know, no ms of the Alexandrian text form includes the comma, and no Byzantine ms earlier than the 12th
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 12, 2001
              > From: spuluka@... [mailto:spuluka@...]
              > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:33 AM
              > Dear Will,

              > While the Byzantine text form does contain the Johannine
              > comma text, you may
              > be interested to know that we do not have this reading in
              > our lectionary.
              > This is a notable hole in a lectionary that covers the vast
              > majority of the
              > New Testament every year.

              Steve,

              That is very interesting. As I expect you know, no ms of the
              Alexandrian text form includes the comma, and no Byzantine ms earlier
              than the 12th century,a nd only 6 (or maybe 8) total. Only three mss
              contain the comma in the text rather than margin, and those are all
              16th century, written after Erasmus' firat editon of the so-called
              Textus Receptus was publisehd without it. (This is a fact which
              KJV-only, TR advocates find unpalatable.) It sounds as if your
              lectionary was written back in the days when the E Orthodox church was
              dependent on the mss.

              Thanks for the information,

              Will

              Will Pratt
              prattw@...
            • Steven Craig Miller
              To: Steve Puluka, Is there one official Byzantine Greek edition of the Bible for
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 13, 2001
                To: Steve Puluka,

                << ... the Byzantine text form does contain the Johannine comma text ... >>

                Is there one official "Byzantine" Greek edition of the Bible for Orthodox
                Christians? Or are there many different Orthodox Greek editions with
                variations on the text? Also, is the LXX the official "Old Testament" for
                Orthodox Christians?

                -Steven Craig Miller
                Alton, Illinois (USA)
                E-mail: stevencraigmiller@...
              • Talmid Ben
                ... Not for me personally. I think a critical edition, based on the BEST textual witness of all the texts, from the DSS, to the LXX to the MT, should be
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 13, 2001
                  >  Also, is the LXX the official "Old Testament" for
                  > Orthodox Christians?

                  Not for me personally. I think a critical edition, based on the BEST textual
                  witness of all the texts, from the DSS, to the LXX to the MT, should be
                  considered, and a critical edition be rendered from the best TEXTUAL witness
                  available, and even so, the variance in many textual traditions, especially in
                  the 2nd Temple era, leads one to conclude that there can really be no
                  "official" text, but we must take all of the info into consideration, etc.
                  -
                  TalmidBenjamin
                  webservant
                  http://www.MessianicArt.com/

                  Troubled by an "Anti-Missionary"? CHAZAK! (Be Strong!)
                  Chazak, Counter-Anti-Missionary Organization
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                  or
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                • St. Tikhon's Sem Libr
                  We checked a number of Church Slavonic and Russian Bibles in our library printed from the 1870s on and found that they all have the Johannine comma. But a
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 15, 2001
                    We checked a number of Church Slavonic and Russian Bibles in our
                    library printed from the 1870s on and found that they all have the
                    Johannine comma.

                    But a Pochaev edition issued in 1785 does not have the comma.

                    As for Greek Bibles from Greece that are printed with the sanction of
                    the Church of Greece, I have seen one 20th cent. Greek edition from
                    Greece that has the comma, and another one that has it, but in italics.





                    Juvenaly, Asst. Librarian
                    St. Patriarch Tikhon Library
                    St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary
                    Box 130 / St Tikhon's Road / So Canaan PA 18459-0130 USA
                    570-937-3209, "-3103, or "-4411 ext 21
                    fax 570-937-3209; if no answer 570-937-3100
                    http://www.stots.edu/library.html
                    library@...
                  • spuluka@hotmail.com
                    ... There is no central ruling authority for such matters in the Christian East. Basically, each self-governing Orthodox jurisdiction does as they see best for
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 15, 2001
                      >From: Steven Craig Miller <stevencraigmiller@...>
                      >
                      >Is there one official "Byzantine" Greek edition of the Bible for Orthodox
                      >Christians? Or are there many different Orthodox
                      >Greek editions with variations on the text? Also, is the LXX the official
                      >"Old Testament" for Orthodox Christians?

                      There is no central ruling authority for such matters in the Christian East.
                      Basically, each self-governing Orthodox jurisdiction does as they see best
                      for their own Church. But many of the independant Orthodox jurisdictions
                      are dependant on the Greek Orthodox community for our texts, both liturgical
                      and Biblical. When those of us from Slavic countries translate scripture or
                      liturgy we must choose to use either the Church Slavonic or the Greek as the
                      language to come into our native language (English in my case.) Our
                      liturgical commission translates from the Greek with reference to the
                      Slavonic. If there is more than one way to interpret the Greek text we
                      follow the way that the Church Slavonic translated the text. There are some
                      occasions when the Church Slavonic differs from the Greek. In those cases
                      they make a case by case determination on which to follow.

                      My comments in my first post reflect the outcome of a brief look at the
                      Johannine coma issue by myself, a seminarian and seminary professor, not an
                      in-depth research of the issue. After seeing Will's follow-up post over the
                      weekend I dug around my parish library and cantors stand and can see that
                      the issue is far from clear.

                      In contrast to Bill Rodgers experience, we have a Slovak 17th century bible
                      translation that does not include the text. Bill, what New Testement
                      translation do you have with the text?

                      And in contrast to myself, we have a 1950's English lectionary that does
                      have the text. I was not able to lay my hands on a Church Slavonic
                      Lectionary to confirm our original observation. I'll try to do that at our
                      Seminary library.

                      In short, if the question is do the Orthodox Churches accept the Johannine
                      comma text as part of scripture, the answer may have to be on a case by case
                      basis.

                      As far as the Septuagint text is concerned, there was a synod of Bishops in
                      Jerusalem in 1672 that offcially accepted the Septuagint Old Testament over
                      the Hebrew. Before the Reformation there was never any question in
                      Orthodoxy on the issue. After the Reformation the Patriach of
                      Constantinople fell into heresy (from the perspective of the Orthodox
                      Church) in accepting many of the premises of Protestant reformation
                      theology. One of those was Hebrew as the Old Testament version. The Synod
                      spoke against that Patriarchal announcement. But Orthodoxy was not then,
                      and is not now, very concerned with text critical matters in this regard.
                      In fact, you will find a fair degree of variance among Orthodox
                      jurisdictions as to the content of the Old Testament canon, much less the
                      text critical aspect of that content.

                      I am not aware of ANY real text critical scholars from the Orthodox world.
                      If we approach the question at all it is usually in the form of an
                      apologetic to defend the received text against what we see as critical
                      excesses. A telling example of this is the LXX.org project to adjust the
                      NKJV translation to the readings of the Septuagint. There was a serious
                      argument made in the Orthodox publication, St. Vladimirs Theological
                      Quarterly, that one should not be translating Old Testament without ANY
                      reference to the Hebrew. It seems that the translators of LXX.org do not
                      have any Hebrew language ability and are not making any reference to the
                      Hebrew version of scripture in working on their adjustment translation. The
                      counter argument is that Greek is the liturgical and scriptural language of
                      the Church and the Hebrew version is irrelevant to the translation.
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                    • Kevin Holsapple
                      Can anyone on this list recommend a University or Seminary where LXX studies are a specialty, or at least an important part of the curriculum? Kevin Holsapple
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 15, 2001
                        Can anyone on this list recommend a University or Seminary where LXX
                        studies are a specialty, or at least an important part of the curriculum?

                        Kevin Holsapple
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                        Click here for Free Video!!
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                      • Tyler F. Williams
                        As far as Canada is concerned, Toronto used to be one of the best (IMHO!), but with recent retirements, etc., it really doesn t offer much anymore. Trinity
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 15, 2001
                          As far as Canada is concerned, Toronto used to be one of the best (IMHO!), but with
                          recent retirements, etc., it really doesn't offer much anymore.

                          Trinity Western University, Langley, Canada, is toying with starting some sort of LXX
                          program. It would only be undergrad and perhaps a MA. (TWU has a couple good LXX
                          scholars, Rob Hiebert and Peter Flint).


                          -Tyler
                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Tyler F. Williams
                          Assistant Professor of Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, NABC/EBS
                          11525 - 23 Avenue, Edmonton, AB, Canada T6J 4T3
                          Phone: (780) 431-5217/ Toll Free: 1-800-567-4988/ Fax: (780) 436-9416
                          Web Page: http://www.nabcebs.ab.ca/~twilliam
                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Kevin Holsapple [mailto:kholsapp@...]
                          > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 6:56 PM
                          > To: lxx@egroups.com
                          > Subject: [lxx] a question
                          >
                          >
                          > Can anyone on this list recommend a University or Seminary where LXX
                          > studies are a specialty, or at least an important part of the curriculum?
                          >
                          > Kevin Holsapple
                          > -----------------------------------------------------
                          > Click here for Free Video!!
                          > http://www.gohip.com/free_video/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • petersig@ccat.sas.upenn.edu
                          For Kevin Holsapple (and others on the LXX list): It is possible to study LXX/OG on a graduate level at the University of Pennsylvania, in the Department of
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 16, 2001
                            For Kevin Holsapple (and others on the LXX list):

                            It is possible to study LXX/OG on a graduate level at the University of
                            Pennsylvania, in the Department of Asian and Middle Eastern Languages,
                            with Jeffrey Tigay, or in Religious Studies, with Robert Kraft.

                            Robert Kraft typically has at least two or three students doing something
                            related to the LXX/OG. Jeff Tigay (JPS Deuteronomy Commentary) has
                            supervised a dissertation that concentrated on LXX. Several of the
                            Septuagint and Cognate Studies Series books originated here. Religious
                            Studies and Classics share a large graduate student lounge between them, a
                            library with Greek materials for reference, and a computer lab with
                            computerized Greek tools available. We have several working Ibycus
                            machines.

                            The following are web addresses for each:

                            Jeffrey Tigay http://www.sas.upenn.edu/ames/
                            Bob Kraft http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html

                            Whether this is the place to study basic LXX Greek in the classroom is
                            another question. If that's an issue, let me know.

                            Sigrid Peterson

                            >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: Kevin Holsapple [mailto:kholsapp@...]
                            > > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 6:56 PM
                            > > To: lxx@egroups.com
                            > > Subject: [lxx] a question
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Can anyone on this list recommend a University or Seminary where LXX
                            > > studies are a specialty, or at least an important part of the curriculum?
                            > >
                            > > Kevin Holsapple
                            > > -----------------------------------------------------
                            > > Click here for Free Video!!
                            > > http://www.gohip.com/free_video/
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
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