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Barthelemy thesis

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  • Dan & Rach King
    Apologies if this question is too basic. Could anyone summarise for me the basic argument made by Barthelemy in Devanciers d Aquila, a book I keep coming
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 25, 2005
      Apologies if this question is too basic. Could anyone summarise for me the basic argument made by Barthelemy in Devanciers d'Aquila, a book I keep coming across in references without any very complete explanation of why it was so important. I understand it is based on the Greek Minor Prophets Scroll and relates, I think, to the kaige recension.
      I would be most grateful if anyone on the list could give further details. And is the thesis he made still accepted?
       
      many thanks
      Dan King
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:25 AM
      Subject: Re: [lxx] use of LXX in NT

      See also

      Jennifer M. Dines
      The Septuagint
      T&T Clark, London and New York, 2004

      Barbara
      On Friday, February 25, 2005, at 07:51 AM, Schmuel wrote:

      >
      > Hi LXX,
      >
      > Steve Puluka,
      >> Jobes, Karen H., and Moises Silva. Invitation to the Septuagint. Grand
      >> Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2000.
      >> This is the most recent introduction to LXX studies.  The history is
      >> part I chapters 1-4 pp 29-104.  Chapter 13 deals with attempting to
      >> reconstruct the original text of the LXX pp 273-287.
      >> Chapter 9 is the LXX and the NT pp 183-205
      >
      > Hi Steve,
      >
      >   Could you indicate whether Karen Jobes and Moises Silva give any
      > substantial consideration to theories of LXX redaction to match the NT
      > text in that section (as is often viewed to be the case in Cainan of
      > Luke 3:36).
      >
      >    As an aside, Professor Jobes was very cordial once when I needed
      > assistance on a question.  It was the occasional strange claim that the
      > Masoretes had back-translated from the Greek.  She nicely demolished
      > the conception as without any support.
      >
      > Shalom,
      > Steven Avery
      > Queens, NY
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


    • Robert Kraft
      Right now (this very morning!) I m finishing up an article for the forthcoming Bulletin of the International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 25, 2005
        Right now (this very morning!) I'm finishing up an article for the forthcoming
        Bulletin of the International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies
        (IOSCS) on the legacy of Barthelemy's Devanciers. Meanwhile, my 1965 review of
        that book is available online at

        http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/other/journals/kraftpub/Judaism/Barthelemy%20on%20KAIGE%20Greek%20Recension%20%5b1965%5d

        (if you shorten the address to the "/Judaism" part, you can click on
        "Barthelemy" from there).

        It's a very important study, as much for the doors it has opened as for any
        specific conclusions it offers.

        Bob

        > Apologies if this question is too basic. Could anyone summarise for me the =
        > basic argument made by Barthelemy in Devanciers d'Aquila, a book I keep com=
        > ing across in references without any very complete explanation of why it wa=
        > s so important. I understand it is based on the Greek Minor Prophets Scroll=
        > and relates, I think, to the kaige recension.
        > I would be most grateful if anyone on the list could give further details. =
        > And is the thesis he made still accepted?
        >
        > many thanks
        > Dan King
        > ----- Original Message -----=20
        > From: Barbara Crostini=20
        > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com=20
        > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:25 AM
        > Subject: Re: [lxx] use of LXX in NT
        >
        >
        > See also
        >
        > Jennifer M. Dines
        > The Septuagint
        > T&T Clark, London and New York, 2004
        >
        > Barbara
        > On Friday, February 25, 2005, at 07:51 AM, Schmuel wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > Hi LXX,
        > >
        > > Steve Puluka,
        > >> Jobes, Karen H., and Moises Silva. Invitation to the Septuagint. Grand
        > >> Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2000.
        > >> This is the most recent introduction to LXX studies. The history is
        > >> part I chapters 1-4 pp 29-104. Chapter 13 deals with attempting to
        > >> reconstruct the original text of the LXX pp 273-287.
        > >> Chapter 9 is the LXX and the NT pp 183-205
        > >
        > > Hi Steve,
        > >
        > > Could you indicate whether Karen Jobes and Moises Silva give any
        > > substantial consideration to theories of LXX redaction to match the NT
        > > text in that section (as is often viewed to be the case in Cainan of=20
        > > Luke 3:36).
        > >
        > > As an aside, Professor Jobes was very cordial once when I needed
        > > assistance on a question. It was the occasional strange claim that the
        > > Masoretes had back-translated from the Greek. She nicely demolished
        > > the conception as without any support.
        > >
        > > Shalom,
        > > Steven Avery
        > > Queens, NY
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
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        > <DIV><FONT size=2>Apologies if this question is too basic. Could anyone
        > summarise for me the basic argument made by Barthelemy in Devanciers d'Aquila, a
        > book I keep coming across in references without any very complete explanation of
        > why it was so important. I understand it is based on the Greek Minor Prophets
        > Scroll and relates, I think, to the kaige recension.</FONT></DIV>
        > <DIV><FONT size=2>I would be most grateful if anyone on the list could give
        > further details. And is the thesis he made still accepted?</FONT></DIV>
        > <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
        > <DIV><FONT size=2>many thanks</FONT></DIV>
        > <DIV><FONT size=2>Dan King</FONT></DIV>
        > <BLOCKQUOTE
        > style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        > <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
        > <DIV
        > style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
        > <A title=barbara.crostini@...
        > href="mailto:barbara.crostini@...">Barbara Crostini</A> </DIV>
        > <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=lxx@yahoogroups.com
        > href="mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com">lxx@yahoogroups.com</A> </DIV>
        > <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 25, 2005 9:25
        > AM</DIV>
        > <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [lxx] use of LXX in NT</DIV>
        > <DIV><BR></DIV><TT>See also<BR><BR>Jennifer M. Dines<BR>The
        > Septuagint<BR>T&T Clark, London and New York, 2004<BR><BR>Barbara<BR>On
        > Friday, February 25, 2005, at 07:51 AM, Schmuel wrote:<BR><BR>><BR>> Hi
        > LXX,<BR>><BR>> Steve Puluka,<BR>>> Jobes, Karen H., and Moises
        > Silva. Invitation to the Septuagint. Grand<BR>>> Rapids, MI: Baker
        > Academic, 2000.<BR>>> This is the most recent introduction to LXX
        > studies.  The history is<BR>>> part I chapters 1-4 pp 29-104. 
        > Chapter 13 deals with attempting to<BR>>> reconstruct the original text
        > of the LXX pp 273-287.<BR>>> Chapter 9 is the LXX and the NT pp
        > 183-205<BR>><BR>> Hi Steve,<BR>><BR>>   Could you
        > indicate whether Karen Jobes and Moises Silva give any<BR>> substantial
        > consideration to theories of LXX redaction to match the NT<BR>> text in
        > that section (as is often viewed to be the case in Cainan of <BR>> Luke
        > 3:36).<BR>><BR>>    As an aside, Professor Jobes was very
        > cordial once when I needed<BR>> assistance on a question.  It was the
        > occasional strange claim that the<BR>> Masoretes had back-translated from
        > the Greek.  She nicely demolished<BR>> the conception as without any
        > support.<BR>><BR>> Shalom,<BR>> Steven Avery<BR>> Queens,
        > NY<BR>> <A
        > href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
        > Yahoo! Groups
        > Links<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR><BR></TT><BR>
        >
        > <br>
        >
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        --
        Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
        227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
        kraft@...
        http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
      • Dan & Rach King
        Thank you. I have read the article, and it certainly makes things a great deal clearer. I now recall having read all this before some time ago; but when you
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 25, 2005
          Thank you. I have read the article, and it certainly makes things a great deal clearer. I now recall having read all this before some time ago; but when you don't study these things every day, you forget so quickly! I shall look forward to your next article!
          Meanwhile, it seems (from a brief perusal of the literature without reading anything properly) that  the kaige recension idea is a bit out of fashion these days. Is that the case?
           
          many thanks
          Dan King
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 5:04 PM
          Subject: Re: [lxx] Barthelemy thesis

          Right now (this very morning!) I'm finishing up an article for the forthcoming
          Bulletin of the International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies
          (IOSCS) on the legacy of Barthelemy's Devanciers. Meanwhile, my 1965 review of
          that book is available online at

          http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/other/journals/kraftpub/Judaism/Barthelemy%20on%20KAIGE%20Greek%20Recension%20%5b1965%5d

          (if you shorten the address to the "/Judaism" part, you can click on
          "Barthelemy" from there).

          It's a very important study, as much for the doors it has opened as for any
          specific conclusions it offers.

          Bob

        • Robert Kraft
          ... Not at all. Everyone (!) seems to agree that recensional activity was taking place in various Greek scriptural texts even earlier than Barthelemy
          Message 4 of 4 , Mar 1, 2005
            > Thank you. I have read the article, and it certainly makes things a great d=
            > eal clearer. I now recall having read all this before some time ago; but wh=
            > en you don't study these things every day, you forget so quickly! I shall l=
            > ook forward to your next article!

            > Meanwhile, it seems (from a brief perusal of the literature without reading=
            > anything properly) that the kaige recension idea is a bit out of fashion =
            > these days. Is that the case?

            Not at all. Everyone (!) seems to agree that "recensional" activity was taking
            place in various Greek scriptural texts even earlier than Barthelemy proposed,
            and that the "KAIGE" features are widespread in the preserved evidence. Not
            everyone recognizes that Barthelemy proposed a "school" of KAIGE text producers
            (noting the diversity within KAIGE witnesses), which makes good sense in a world
            in which distribution by scrolls (basically book by book) could promote lots of
            diversity before someone like Origen tried to gather things together into a more
            centralized collection for distribution in codices.

            Note the following modern claims (from my forthcoming survey article):

            More recently, we find the post-B position cautiously presented in recent
            surveys such as by Jobes and Silva as follows: "most scholars now prefer to
            speak of Kaige-Theodotion, meaning by that term a well-defined, pre-Christian
            revision of the Old Greek; it is also thought that this revision became the
            basis for the work of both Aquila and Symmachus. The work of the historical
            Theodotion [in late 2nd century] may then be viewed as a later updating of the
            revision."\16/ Hengel deals with the situation in a more oblique manner: e.g.
            the translation of Qohelet/Ecclesiastes "may go back to a first-century
            Pharisaic school of translators, whose tendencies Aquila extended in
            strengthened form and which had already revised the LXX of the prophets and
            other documents."\17/ He does not comment directly on "Theodotion" in this
            context. Further, Salvesen in the Encyclopedia of the DSS under "Origen": "The
            existence of a 'school'of revisers of the Septuagint at the turn of the era ...
            underlies much that goes under the name Theodotion, and influenced Aquila and
            possibly Symmachus. In recent years Barthelemy's position has been somewhat
            nuanced by other scholars, but his basic findings on the priority of
            "Theodotion" ... continue to be accepted."\18/ Tov speaks of the
            "Kaige-Theodotion" revision(s) as presumably from "the middle of the first
            century BCE" and later ascribed "to Theodotion, who apparently lived at the end
            of the second century CE."\19/ He underlines this in a note: "We now know that
            the [previously] conjectured proto-Theodotion is none other than
            kaige-Theodotion tentatively ascribed to the middle of the first century BCE"
            (145 n.97). Unfortunately, the revised view of these materials that is now
            "universally accepted" in scholarly circles has not made its desired impact on
            even some relatively respectable internet sites.\20/ Much educational work
            remains to be done!

            \16/ Karen H. Jobes and Moises Silva, Invitation to the Septuagint (Baker 2000)
            42.

            \17/ Martin Hengel, with the assistance of Roland Deines, The Septuagint as
            Christian Scripture: its Prehistory and the Problem of its Canon (Introduction
            by Robert Hanhart, translated by Mark E. Biddle; T&T Clark 2002) 89.

            \18/ Alison Salvesen, "Origen," Encyclopedia of the Dead Sea Scrolls (ed. James
            VanderKam and Lawrence Shiffman; 2000) 624.

            \19/ Emanuel Tov, Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible (second revised edition;
            Fortress 2001) 145.

            \20/Let one example suffice for now: St Pachomius Library. "Other Greek
            Translations of the Old Testament: Aquila, Theodotion, and Symmachus:
            [material omitted -- check it for yourselves through google.com]

            [End of quoted section]
            The number of publications that have developed in connection with Barthelemy's
            work is extensive, and truly international.

            Bob

            > many thanks
            > Dan King
            > ----- Original Message -----=20
            > From: Robert Kraft=20
            > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com=20
            > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 5:04 PM
            > Subject: Re: [lxx] Barthelemy thesis
            >
            >
            > Right now (this very morning!) I'm finishing up an article for the forthc=
            > oming
            > Bulletin of the International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Stu=
            > dies
            > (IOSCS) on the legacy of Barthelemy's Devanciers. Meanwhile, my 1965 revi=
            > ew of
            > that book is available online at
            >
            > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/gopher/other/journals/kraftpub/Judaism/Barthele=
            > my%20on%20KAIGE%20Greek%20Recension%20%5b1965%5d
            >
            > (if you shorten the address to the "/Judaism" part, you can click on=20
            > "Barthelemy" from there).
            >
            > It's a very important study, as much for the doors it has opened as for a=
            > ny=20
            > specific conclusions it offers.
            >
            > Bob

            --
            Robert A. Kraft, Religious Studies, University of Pennsylvania
            227 Logan Hall (Philadelphia PA 19104-6304); tel. 215 898-5827
            kraft@...
            http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/rak/kraft.html
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