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Lucifer or Satan?

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  • Peter Papoutsis
    Dear Group: I have a question to ask. I had a brief discussion with John, who is a member on this group and has become a good friend, on the Greek word
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 23, 2004
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      Dear Group:
       
      I have a question to ask. I had a brief discussion with John, who is a member on this group and has become a good friend, on the Greek word "Eosphoros" as it is found in the Book of Isaiah at Ch.12 Verse 14.
       
      Brenton and Thompson translate this word as Lucifer. The Greek Fathers in their writings identify the Fallen Being as Satan. In Katherevousa Greek the word is used as a name for Satan.
       
      Here is the question. In my translation notes for the Book of Isaiah I have listed my preference for Satan over Lucifer or I can go with a very literal translation which is either lucifer, morning light, or day star or light of dawn, etc.
       
      I personally like Satan because that is what the word has come to mean and its who the Greek Fathers identified in their writings when discussing Isaiah 14:12.
       
      Let me know what you think as I am seriously preparing my notes on Isaiah, which I find a very difficult book to translate from the Septuagint.
       
      Peter


      Peter A. Papoutsis


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    • Tony Costa
      Dear Peter, I think you meant Isa. Ch.14 and vs.12 (you reversed them). The Fathers saw this being indeed as Satan, and the Latin term Lucifer (light bearer)
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 23, 2004
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        Dear Peter, I think you meant Isa. Ch.14 and vs.12 (you
        reversed them). The Fathers saw this being indeed as
        Satan, and the Latin term "Lucifer" (light bearer)
        entered the text through Jerome in his Latin
        translation of the Vulgate. The issue here of course is
        that neither "Satan" or "Lucifer" are in the original
        Hebrew which has "haylel ben shachar" (day-star, son of
        the morning). Isa.14 is addressing the "king of
        Babylon" (Isa.14:4) Of course Christian writers later
        came to see this as an allusion to the fall of Satan,
        and some rabbinic literature seems to point this way as
        well. Isa.14:12 also reflects an ancient Near Eastern
        myth of the overthrow of a god who wished to usurp the
        authority of the supreme god.
        In Christian language Lucifer and Satan have become
        virtually synonymous because they are believed to be
        the same person. I would suppose that for the interests
        of your research "Satan" would probably be more
        convenient and less confusing. Most English
        translations no longer use the term "Lucifer", the King
        James (1611) used it but that the translators relied on
        the Vulgate for that name.



        On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:49:50 -0700 (PDT), Peter
        Papoutsis wrote:




        Dear Group:

        I have a question to ask. I had a brief discussion with
        John, who is a member on this group and has become a
        good friend, on the Greek word "Eosphoros" as it is
        found in the Book of Isaiah at Ch.12 Verse 14.

        Brenton and Thompson translate this word as Lucifer.
        The Greek Fathers in their writings identify the Fallen
        Being as Satan. In Katherevousa Greek the word is used
        as a name for Satan.

        Here is the question. In my translation notes for the
        Book of Isaiah I have listed my preference for Satan
        over Lucifer or I can go with a very literal
        translation which is either lucifer, morning light, or
        day star or light of dawn, etc.

        I personally like Satan because that is what the word
        has come to mean and its who the Greek Fathers
        identified in their writings when discussing Isaiah
        14:12.

        Let me know what you think as I am seriously preparing
        my notes on Isaiah, which I find a very difficult book
        to translate from the Septuagint.

        PeterPeter A. Papoutsis
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        Tony Costa "But I do not consider my life of any account
        as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the
        ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify
        solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God." (Acts 20:24)
      • Peter Papoutsis
        Dear Tony: The Greek word Eosphoros does mean day star or moring light or light of dawn, which lucifer can also mean. However, what I am saying is that the
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 23, 2004
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          Dear Tony:
           
          The Greek word "Eosphoros" does mean day star or moring light or light of dawn, which lucifer can also mean. However, what I am saying is that the Greek Fathers, through their use of the Septuagint, associated "Eosphoros" with Satan.
           
          The word Satan does mean the devil, but I do not what to lose the very significant connotation that Satan is an Angel of Light that deceives the world. Do I do that if I translate the word as Satan? I'm not sure. Lucifer is much closer to the Greek word than Satan, but as a native Greek speaker I know that "Eosphoros" means Satan the Devil. Right now I'm leaning towards Satan, but I'd thought I'd ask the group and see what your thoughts are on it.
           
          Thank you for your thoughts Tony. They were greatly appriciated.
           
          Peter 


          Peter A. Papoutsis


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        • Kevin P. Edgecomb
          Dear Peter, In keeping with the passage in Isaiah itself, it would be best to provide a translation rather than an interpretation. In the Hebrew and English
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 23, 2004
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            Dear Peter,
            In keeping with the passage in Isaiah itself, it would be best to provide a translation rather than an interpretation.  In the Hebrew and English versions, there is a clear distinction here.  John Milton in Paradise Lost, as a classic representation of this, took Hellel/Lucifer/Morningstar (generally believed to be also a reference to the planet Venus in the morning when it rises before the sun) to be the former name of Satan/Adversary, which he bore before his being cast down.  Perhaps simply maintain the word as a name, "Eosphoros," and provide a footnote with its meaning.  Certainly putting "Satan" there is not a good idea. If you did, those who read your translation will completely lose the understanding of the Hellel/Lucifer/Eosphoros to Satan change, a traditional understanding of this phrase that I would think you'd want to preserve. Good luck!
             
            Regards,
            Kevin P. Edgecomb
            Berkeley, California

            lxx@yahoogroups.com wrote:
            Dear Tony:
             
            The Greek word "Eosphoros" does mean day star or moring light or light of dawn, which lucifer can also mean. However, what I am saying is that the Greek Fathers, through their use of the Septuagint, associated "Eosphoros" with Satan.
             
            The word Satan does mean the devil, but I do not what to lose the very significant connotation that Satan is an Angel of Light that deceives the world. Do I do that if I translate the word as Satan? I'm not sure. Lucifer is much closer to the Greek word than Satan, but as a native Greek speaker I know that "Eosphoros" means Satan the Devil. Right now I'm leaning towards Satan, but I'd thought I'd ask the group and see what your thoughts are on it.
             
            Thank you for your thoughts Tony. They were greatly appriciated.
             
            Peter 


            Peter A. Papoutsis


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          • RRHowell41@aol.com
            In a message dated 9/23/2004 6:21:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, papoutsis1@yahoo.com writes: The Greek word Eosphoros does mean day star or moring light or
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 23, 2004
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              In a message dated 9/23/2004 6:21:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, papoutsis1@... writes:
              The Greek word "Eosphoros" does mean day star or moring light or light of dawn, which lucifer can also mean. However, what I am saying is that the Greek Fathers, through their use of the Septuagint, associated "Eosphoros" with Satan.
               
              Personally, I'd lean towards Lucifer.  Plenty of folks will also associate that with Satan in English,but you don't lose the other associations with the name.
               
              --Becky
            • canicus@fastmail.fm
              I m not the biggest expert on these matters, but still, I m going to throw in my two cents and disappear again. I don t think I ve ever met an English speaker
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 23, 2004
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                I'm not the biggest expert on these matters, but still, I'm going to
                throw in my two cents and disappear again.

                I don't think I've ever met an English speaker who, when I've mentioned
                Lucifer, did not associate that with Satan. It's ubiquitous. Satan, on
                the other hand, does not neccisarily presuppose Lucifer. That is,
                Lucifer is another name for Satan, not the other way around.

                So, what I'm trying to say is that translating it Lucifer gets the most
                bang for your buck, but translating it Satan loses meaning.

                Likewise, I would think Lucifer better than transliterating it; there is
                that ubiquitous understanding of Lucifer. If I said "Eosphoros," the
                vast majority of people speaking English, would be at a total loss.

                Now I'm going to disappear again :).

                --
                God bless,
                Kenneth Gardner
              • Peter Papoutsis
                Kevin: In Greek we take it as a name. Do you think it would cause more confusion than not. I actually like the Idea, but was scared to do it. I m not a big fan
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 23, 2004
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                  Kevin:

                  In Greek we take it as a name. Do you think it would cause more confusion than not. I actually like the Idea, but was scared to do it. I'm not a big fan of transliteration. But you do have a point.

                  Thanks for the insight.

                  Peter



                  Peter A. Papoutsis


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                • Charlotte Faber
                  Dear Peter and Kevin, Whatever the translation turns out to be, thanks for sending me to an interesting place that connects to one of my own interests, the
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 23, 2004
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                    Dear Peter  and Kevin,

                    Whatever the translation turns out to be, thanks for sending me to an interesting place that connects to one of my own interests, the elusive psalm 110/109 LXX.
                    Where the Hebrew has a very difficult OR corrupt text in verse 3, the Greek has a reference to the morning star that reminds me very much of this Isa. quotation. For me, that means for now that the Greek here may really reflect a historical concept of a divine king.
                    It would therefore be nice if the reference to morning star could be kept.

                    Best wishes
                    Charlotte Faber

                    Peter Papoutsis wrote:

                    Kevin:

                    In Greek we take it as a name. Do you think it would cause more confusion than not. I actually like the Idea, but was scared to do it. I'm not a big fan of transliteration. But you do have a point.

                    Thanks for the insight.

                    Peter


                  • Steve Puluka
                    on 9/23/04 6:16 PM, Peter Papoutsis at papoutsis1@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Tony: The Greek word Eosphoros does mean day star or moring light or light of dawn,
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                      Re: [lxx] Lucifer or Satan? on 9/23/04 6:16 PM, Peter Papoutsis at papoutsis1@... wrote:

                      Dear Tony:

                      The Greek word "Eosphoros" does mean day star or moring light or light of dawn, which lucifer can also mean. However, what I am saying is that the Greek Fathers, through their use of the Septuagint, associated "Eosphoros" with Satan.

                      The word Satan does mean the devil, but I do not what to lose the very significant connotation that Satan is an Angel of Light that deceives the world. Do I do that if I translate the word as Satan? I'm not sure. Lucifer is much closer to the Greek word than Satan, but as a native Greek speaker I know that "Eosphoros" means Satan the Devil. Right now I'm leaning towards Satan, but I'd thought I'd ask the group and see what your thoughts are on it.

                      Peter,

                      It seems to me that there are two concepts or analogies for the evil  one in the Old Testament here that have two names and deserve to be kept distinct.  Satan comes from accuser and a court room model and Lucifer comes from daystar and the fallen star (meaning angel) model.  

                      The two concepts each have their advantages and I would use Lucifer in this instance and Satan in say Zechariah 3 or Job 2.   The Septuagint translates the Hebrew Satan as diabolos.  This is meant to call up that image of our trail before the throne of God.  Satan is the accuser that has tempted us and reminds God where we have fallen.

                      Lucifer hearkens back to the battle of heaven where Michael throws him down from the sky (Enoch but I don't have the specific reference on hand).  

                      These are each different models for seeing the evil one, an accuser before God or a fallen angel thrown out of heaven.  I would use two words and select based on the original concept.

                      Now that I've made the distinction, we can see that Jesus combines the two in Luke 10:18.  So I guess the two characters can be conflated into one under the name of Satan.  But if it were me I would use both names and keep Lucifer for Eosphoros and Satan for Diabolos and make the appropriate historical footnote for the separate images.

                      --
                      Steve Puluka
                      Master's Student, SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
                      Cantor, Holy Ghost Church, Mckees Rocks PA
                      http://www.geocities.com/spuluka
                    • Peter Papoutsis
                      Thanks Steve: I have alot to think about: So the Three choices I have right now are: Lucifer, Satan and a variation of moring star or day light. Stay tunes to
                      Message 10 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                        Thanks Steve:
                         
                        I have alot to think about: So the Three choices I have right now are: Lucifer, Satan and a variation of moring star or day light. Stay tunes to find out what happens.
                         
                        Peter
                         
                         


                        Peter A. Papoutsis


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                      • St. Tikhon's Sem Library
                        ... However, Eosphoros is also used sometimes in a positive sense, in the hymnography of the Orthodox Church, much of which was written in Greek. It is used
                        Message 11 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                          >The Greek word "Eosphoros" does mean day star or moring light or light of
                          >dawn, which lucifer can also mean. However, what I am saying is that the
                          >Greek Fathers, through their use of the Septuagint, associated "Eosphoros"
                          >with Satan.
                          >
                          >The word Satan does mean the devil, but I do not what to lose the very
                          >significant connotation that Satan is an Angel of Light that deceives the
                          >world. Do I do that if I translate the word as Satan? I'm not sure. Lucifer
                          >is much closer to the Greek word than Satan, but as a native Greek speaker I
                          >know that "Eosphoros" means Satan the Devil. Right now I'm leaning towards
                          >Satan, but I'd thought I'd ask the group and see what your thoughts are on it.

                          However, "Eosphoros" is also used sometimes in a positive sense, in the
                          hymnography of the Orthodox Church, much of which was written in Greek.
                          It is used with reference to a saint and IIRC that saint is St. John
                          the Baptist, with the idea that he was the star, the smaller light,
                          that heralds the coming Sun, the greater light.

                          Juvenaly



                          Juvenaly, Asst. Librarian
                          St. Patriarch Tikhon Library
                          St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary
                          Box 130 / St Tikhon's Road / So Canaan PA 18459-0130 USA
                          570-937-3209, "-3103, or "-4411 ext 21
                          fax 570-937-3209; if no answer 570-937-3100
                          http://www.stots.edu/library.htm
                          library@...
                        • Tony Costa
                          Dear Juvenaly, it is interesting that in Rev.22:16 Jesus refers to himself as the bright morning star . It doesn t have Eosphoros as Isa.14:12 does, but the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                            Dear Juvenaly, it is interesting that in Rev.22:16
                            Jesus refers to himself as "the bright morning star".
                            It doesn't have "Eosphoros" as Isa.14:12 does, but the
                            idea is similar.

                            Tony Costa

                            > However, "Eosphoros" is also used sometimes in a
                            > positive sense, in the
                            > hymnography of the Orthodox Church, much of which was
                            > written in Greek.
                            > It is used with reference to a saint and IIRC that
                            > saint is St. John
                            > the Baptist, with the idea that he was the star, the
                            > smaller light,
                            > that heralds the coming Sun, the greater light.
                            >
                            > Juvenaly
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Juvenaly, Asst. Librarian
                            > St. Patriarch Tikhon Library
                            > St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary
                            > Box 130 / St Tikhon's Road / So Canaan PA 18459-0130
                            USA
                            > 570-937-3209, "-3103, or "-4411 ext 21
                            > fax 570-937-3209; if no answer 570-937-3100
                            > http://www.stots.edu/library.htm
                            > library@...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                            >
                            >
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                            Tony Costa "But I do not consider my life of any account
                            as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the
                            ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify
                            solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God." (Acts 20:24)
                          • John Litteral
                            I also think the apostle Paul gives us a clue that he saw Lucifer in the context of the bright morning star in 2 Cor 11:14 by saying And no wonder, for even
                            Message 13 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                              I also think the apostle Paul gives us a clue that he saw Lucifer in the
                              context of "the bright morning star" in 2 Cor 11:14 by saying "And no
                              wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light."

                              John Litteral litteral@...
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Tony Costa" <tmcos@...>
                              To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 11:46 AM
                              Subject: Re: [lxx] Lucifer or Satan?


                              > Dear Juvenaly, it is interesting that in Rev.22:16
                              > Jesus refers to himself as "the bright morning star".
                              > It doesn't have "Eosphoros" as Isa.14:12 does, but the
                              > idea is similar.
                              >
                              > Tony Costa
                              >
                              > > However, "Eosphoros" is also used sometimes in a
                              > > positive sense, in the
                              > > hymnography of the Orthodox Church, much of which was
                              > > written in Greek.
                              > > It is used with reference to a saint and IIRC that
                              > > saint is St. John
                              > > the Baptist, with the idea that he was the star, the
                              > > smaller light,
                              > > that heralds the coming Sun, the greater light.
                              > >
                              > > Juvenaly
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Juvenaly, Asst. Librarian
                              > > St. Patriarch Tikhon Library
                              > > St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary
                              > > Box 130 / St Tikhon's Road / So Canaan PA 18459-0130
                              > USA
                              > > 570-937-3209, "-3103, or "-4411 ext 21
                              > > fax 570-937-3209; if no answer 570-937-3100
                              > > http://www.stots.edu/library.htm
                              > > library@...
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > Tony Costa "But I do not consider my life of any account
                              > as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the
                              > ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify
                              > solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God." (Acts 20:24)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • St. Tikhon's Sem Library
                              ... Dear Tony, That s very interesting, both that Jesus calls himself the bright and morning star and that he does not use eosphoros. I wonder what morning
                              Message 14 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:46:45 -0700 (PDT), Tony Costa wrote:

                                >Dear Juvenaly, it is interesting that in Rev.22:16
                                >Jesus refers to himself as "the bright morning star".
                                >It doesn't have "Eosphoros" as Isa.14:12 does, but the
                                >idea is similar.

                                Dear Tony,
                                That's very interesting, both that Jesus calls himself "the bright and
                                morning star" and that he does not use "eosphoros." I wonder what
                                morning star in that passage means, if it is NOT the morning star that
                                is usually meant, i.e., what we now know as Venus (and which BTW is
                                also called the "evening star" when it appears in the evening).

                                If Jesus is the "the bright and morning star" then what is the sun?
                                Maybe it is meant not in comparison to the sun, but just in a positive
                                sense of something bright.

                                Juvenaly
                              • John Litteral
                                To make sure that I am not misunderstood about my recent post concerning Lucifer and the bright and morning star, after I read it after I posted it, it may
                                Message 15 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                  To make sure that I am not misunderstood about my recent post concerning
                                  Lucifer and "the bright and morning star," after I read it after I posted
                                  it, it may have appeared that I did not support Lucifer as Satan. Though I
                                  wanted to make sure that those who read it did not think that because I was
                                  trying to make the point that St. Paul seems to have supported it by
                                  refering to Satan as "masquerading as as angel of light." This is an
                                  important thing when you consider that it can be said that luciferase is an
                                  enzyme that catalyzes the oxidation of luciferin. Luciferin is a chemical
                                  substance present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms, such as
                                  fireflies that produce a bluish-green light when oxidized.

                                  I just wanted to clear up the fact that I do believe that Lucifer is Satan.

                                  John Litteral litteral@...
                                • St. Tikhon's Sem Library
                                  ... To be more specific, here is such a hymn. In it St. John the Baptist is referred to as Eosphoros. It occurs in the Orthodox service for the Conception of
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                    >However, "Eosphoros" is also used sometimes in a positive sense, in the
                                    >hymnography of the Orthodox Church, much of which was written in Greek.
                                    >It is used with reference to a saint and IIRC that saint is St. John
                                    >the Baptist, with the idea that he was the star, the smaller light,
                                    >that heralds the coming Sun, the greater light.

                                    To be more specific, here is such a hymn. In it St. John the Baptist is
                                    referred to as "Eosphoros." It occurs in the Orthodox service for the
                                    Conception of St. John the Baptist, Sept. 23 in the Menion, the service
                                    book which contains hymns and prayers for fixed feasts.

                                    "The divinely-prepared lamp of the eternal light, the friend of the
                                    Bridegroom, the great morning star [Eosphoros] of the Sun of glory, the
                                    living voice of the Word of God, the Forerunner of the presence of the
                                    Lord, is now conceived at an archangelic declaration" -- from the
                                    praises (ainoi) at matins for Sept. 23. Translated from the Greek.

                                    I don't know if that is the only place where that word is used of St.
                                    John. I haven't checked texts of all his feasts.

                                    2) In many other texts, he is called a star (aster) heralding the sun
                                    -- so he is not just any star, but the same idea as Eosphoros, i.e. the
                                    morning star -- yet using *aster* and not *Eosphoros.*

                                    Some examples from the Octoechos, another service book:

                                    Shining with an ineffable radiance like a many-splendored star, you
                                    heralded the spiritual East. Earnestly pray the same that he illumine
                                    my heart, which is darkened from all the demons' strategems. (Tone 2
                                    Tuesday matins canon Ode 1)

                                    You shone on earth as a brilliant star preceding the Sun of glory, who
                                    brightens the whole earth. Therefore entreat him to enlighten this my
                                    soul, darkened by careless thoughts, O Forerunner. (Tone 3 Tuesday
                                    matins canon Ode 1)

                                    As the greatest star, speeding before the sun, you enlightened the
                                    earth with your rays, O Baptist. Therefore I call to you: Enlighten my
                                    heart, blinded by the awful obscurity caused by unbounded
                                    transgressions. (Tone 4 Tuesday matins canon Ode 1)

                                    With dazzling shafts of sunlight, you enlighten all creation, for you
                                    were displayed as a bright star of the spiritual Sun, O Forerunner.
                                    Earnestly pray him to expel the darkness of passions from our
                                    grief-stricken hearts. (Tone 7 Tuesday matins Ode 7)

                                    Juvenaly


                                    Juvenaly, Asst. Librarian
                                    St. Patriarch Tikhon Library
                                    St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary
                                    Box 130 / St Tikhon's Road / So Canaan PA 18459-0130 USA
                                    570-937-3209, "-3103, or "-4411 ext 21
                                    fax 570-937-3209; if no answer 570-937-3100
                                    http://www.stots.edu/library.htm
                                    library@...
                                  • Peter Papoutsis
                                    Thank you all for your suggestions, especially Junevali. It has been all written down for future reference. Thank you Peter Peter A. Papoutsis ... Do you
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                      Thank you all for your suggestions, especially Junevali. It has been all written down for future reference.
                                       
                                      Thank you
                                       
                                      Peter


                                      Peter A. Papoutsis


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                                    • St. Tikhon's Sem Library
                                      ... I agree about keeping both name-concepts, Eosphoros / Lucifer / morning star and Satan / Diabolos. Re the first, I rather like Lucifer, but another option
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                        >Now that I've made the distinction, we can see that Jesus combines the two
                                        >in Luke 10:18. So I guess the two characters can be conflated into one
                                        >under the name of Satan. But if it were me I would use both names and keep
                                        >Lucifer for Eosphoros and Satan for Diabolos and make the appropriate
                                        >historical footnote for the separate images.

                                        I agree about keeping both name-concepts, Eosphoros / Lucifer / morning
                                        star and Satan / Diabolos.

                                        Re the first, I rather like Lucifer, but another option is to
                                        translation Eosphoros as "morning star."

                                        Re the second, if you are translating from the LXX it seems odd to
                                        substitute Satan for Diabolos. How about using Devil or Divider for
                                        "Diabolos" and explain in a footnote that the Hebrew has Satan.

                                        Juvenaly


                                        Juvenaly, Asst. Librarian
                                        St. Patriarch Tikhon Library
                                        St. Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary
                                        Box 130 / St Tikhon's Road / So Canaan PA 18459-0130 USA
                                        570-937-3209, "-3103, or "-4411 ext 21
                                        fax 570-937-3209; if no answer 570-937-3100
                                        http://www.stots.edu/library.htm
                                        library@...
                                      • Sandra
                                        This is an amazing thread! I have thoughts and questions......I ve read St. Anthony s works and he has written that the Virgin Mary is Lucifer. And I ve also
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                          This is an amazing thread! I have thoughts and questions......I've read St.
                                          Anthony's works and he has written that the Virgin Mary is Lucifer. And
                                          I've also read reports regarding Mary apparitions that some witnesses saw
                                          "satan appear" first, before Mary appeared.

                                          And now that the name "Lucifer" has pretty much been removed from the Isaiah
                                          passage and is replaced with "morning star" which Revelation says is Jesus
                                          Christ, I have to question the motives. What are the newer versions of the
                                          Scripture trying to tell us?


                                          Sandra

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "John Litteral" <litteral@...>
                                          To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 11:16 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [lxx] Lucifer or Satan?


                                          > To make sure that I am not misunderstood about my recent post concerning
                                          > Lucifer and "the bright and morning star," after I read it after I posted
                                          > it, it may have appeared that I did not support Lucifer as Satan. Though
                                          > I
                                          > wanted to make sure that those who read it did not think that because I
                                          > was
                                          > trying to make the point that St. Paul seems to have supported it by
                                          > refering to Satan as "masquerading as as angel of light." This is an
                                          > important thing when you consider that it can be said that luciferase is
                                          > an
                                          > enzyme that catalyzes the oxidation of luciferin. Luciferin is a chemical
                                          > substance present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms, such as
                                          > fireflies that produce a bluish-green light when oxidized.
                                          >
                                          > I just wanted to clear up the fact that I do believe that Lucifer is
                                          > Satan.
                                          >
                                          > John Litteral litteral@...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Tony Costa
                                          Dear Juvenaly, re: Jesus as bright and morning star in Rev.22:16, A.T.Robertson in his Word Pictures of the New Testament saidThe Davidic King is
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                            Dear Juvenaly, re: Jesus as "bright and morning star"
                                            in Rev.22:16, A.T.Robertson in his 'Word Pictures of
                                            the New Testament' said

                                            "The Davidic King is called a star in Numbers 24:17;
                                            Luke 1:78. This "day-star" (posporos) is interpreted as
                                            Christ (2 Peter 1:19). In Revelation 2:28 the phrase
                                            "the morning star" occurs in Christ's words, which is
                                            here interpreted. Christ is the Light that was coming
                                            into the world (John 1:9; John 8:12)."

                                            Tony Costa







                                            Dear Tony,
                                            > That's very interesting, both that Jesus calls himself
                                            > "the bright and
                                            > morning star" and that he does not use "eosphoros." I
                                            > wonder what
                                            > morning star in that passage means, if it is NOT the
                                            > morning star that
                                            > is usually meant, i.e., what we now know as Venus (and
                                            > which BTW is
                                            > also called the "evening star" when it appears in the
                                            > evening).
                                            >
                                            > If Jesus is the "the bright and morning star" then
                                            what
                                            > is the sun?
                                            > Maybe it is meant not in comparison to the sun, but
                                            > just in a positive
                                            > sense of something bright.
                                            >
                                            > Juvenaly
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

                                            Tony Costa "But I do not consider my life of any account
                                            as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the
                                            ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify
                                            solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God." (Acts 20:24)
                                          • Tony Costa
                                            Sandra, we must be careful here. The various translations are not trying to conspire something new. Remember that while the English translations may vary over
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                              Sandra, we must be careful here. The various
                                              translations are not trying to conspire something new.
                                              Remember that while the English translations may vary
                                              over time, the original Hebrew and Greek is the same.
                                              Each word must be interpreted in its given context.
                                              Jesus is called the "bright morning star" but that does
                                              not equate him with the devil. For instance, the lion
                                              is used as a figure of the devil in 1 Pet.5:8, but it
                                              is also used as a figure of Jesus Christ in Rev.5:5
                                              Jesus is described as the light of the world (Jn.8:12),
                                              but Satan is also an angel of light (2 Cor.11:14).
                                              Jesus is the source of light, while creatures such as
                                              angelic beings can be referred to as radiating light,
                                              but it is a derived light if you will, like Moses,
                                              whose face shone when he spoke with God in his
                                              presence.

                                              Tony Costa


                                              > This is an amazing thread! I have thoughts and
                                              > questions......I've read St.
                                              > Anthony's works and he has written that the Virgin
                                              Mary
                                              > is Lucifer. And
                                              > I've also read reports regarding Mary apparitions that
                                              > some witnesses saw
                                              > "satan appear" first, before Mary appeared.
                                              >
                                              > And now that the name "Lucifer" has pretty much been
                                              > removed from the Isaiah
                                              > passage and is replaced with "morning star" which
                                              > Revelation says is Jesus
                                              > Christ, I have to question the motives. What are the
                                              > newer versions of the
                                              > Scripture trying to tell us?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Sandra
                                              >

                                              Tony Costa "But I do not consider my life of any account
                                              as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the
                                              ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify
                                              solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God." (Acts 20:24)
                                            • Sandra
                                              ... From: Tony Costa To: Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [lxx] Lucifer or Satan? ... [I didn t
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Tony Costa" <tmcos@...>
                                                To: <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 1:02 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [lxx] Lucifer or Satan?


                                                > Sandra, we must be careful here. The various
                                                > translations are not trying to conspire something new.
                                                > Remember that while the English translations may vary
                                                > over time, the original Hebrew and Greek is the same.
                                                > Each word must be interpreted in its given context.
                                                > Jesus is called the "bright morning star" but that does
                                                > not equate him with the devil.



                                                [I didn't think of it that way. I was thinking more along
                                                the lines that Satan has replaced Jesus Christ with himself. It's funny how
                                                we all look at things so differently.]


                                                Sandra


                                                For instance, the lion
                                                > is used as a figure of the devil in 1 Pet.5:8, but it
                                                > is also used as a figure of Jesus Christ in Rev.5:5
                                                > Jesus is described as the light of the world (Jn.8:12),
                                                > but Satan is also an angel of light (2 Cor.11:14).
                                                > Jesus is the source of light, while creatures such as
                                                > angelic beings can be referred to as radiating light,
                                                > but it is a derived light if you will, like Moses,
                                                > whose face shone when he spoke with God in his
                                                > presence.
                                                >
                                                > Tony Costa
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >> This is an amazing thread! I have thoughts and
                                                >> questions......I've read St.
                                                >> Anthony's works and he has written that the Virgin
                                                > Mary
                                                >> is Lucifer. And
                                                >> I've also read reports regarding Mary apparitions that
                                                >> some witnesses saw
                                                >> "satan appear" first, before Mary appeared.
                                                >>
                                                >> And now that the name "Lucifer" has pretty much been
                                                >> removed from the Isaiah
                                                >> passage and is replaced with "morning star" which
                                                >> Revelation says is Jesus
                                                >> Christ, I have to question the motives. What are the
                                                >> newer versions of the
                                                >> Scripture trying to tell us?
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> Sandra
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                > Tony Costa "But I do not consider my life of any account
                                                > as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the
                                                > ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify
                                                > solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God." (Acts 20:24)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • Steve Puluka
                                                ... Dear Juvenaly, What I mean by Satan in English for Diabolos is to restore what the Hebrew underlying the Greek Diabolos in these cases. I did a quick and
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                                  on 9/24/04 2:52 PM, St. Tikhon's Sem Library at library@... wrote:

                                                  >
                                                  >> Now that I've made the distinction, we can see that Jesus combines the two
                                                  >> in Luke 10:18. So I guess the two characters can be conflated into one
                                                  >> under the name of Satan. But if it were me I would use both names and keep
                                                  >> Lucifer for Eosphoros and Satan for Diabolos and make the appropriate
                                                  >> historical footnote for the separate images.
                                                  >
                                                  > I agree about keeping both name-concepts, Eosphoros / Lucifer / morning
                                                  > star and Satan / Diabolos.
                                                  >
                                                  > Re the first, I rather like Lucifer, but another option is to
                                                  > translation Eosphoros as "morning star."
                                                  >
                                                  > Re the second, if you are translating from the LXX it seems odd to
                                                  > substitute Satan for Diabolos. How about using Devil or Divider for
                                                  > "Diabolos" and explain in a footnote that the Hebrew has Satan.
                                                  >
                                                  Dear Juvenaly,

                                                  What I mean by Satan in English for Diabolos is to restore what the Hebrew
                                                  underlying the Greek Diabolos in these cases. I did a quick and dirty look
                                                  at the text, and the Septuagint translators seem to use Diabolos where the
                                                  Hebrew has Satan (adversary or accuser). I'm advocating that in English the
                                                  way to keep these two distinct images of the evil one straight is to use
                                                  Lucifer for the one and Satan for the other.

                                                  --
                                                  Steve Puluka
                                                  Master's Student, SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
                                                  Cantor, Holy Ghost Church, Mckees Rocks PA
                                                  http://www.geocities.com/spuluka
                                                • Matthew Johnson
                                                  ... I don t find it that amazing . But what I _do_ find amazing is how confused people are getting. So it is high time I remind the Latin-impaired that the
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                                    --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra" <roadservice@c...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > This is an amazing thread!

                                                    I don't find it that 'amazing'.

                                                    But what I _do_ find amazing is how confused people are getting. So it
                                                    is high time I remind the Latin-impaired that the word 'Lucifer'
                                                    occurs exactly TWICE in the Vulgate. But this is where we get to the
                                                    amazing part: once, it refers to the devil, and the other time, it
                                                    refers to Christ!

                                                    The two times are:

                                                    quomodo cecidisti de caelo LUCIFER
                                                    qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram
                                                    qui vulnerabas gentes (Isa 14:12 Vulgate)

                                                    Of course, some will insist that this refers not to the devil at all,
                                                    but only to that king. Yet either way, it is a derogatory reference.

                                                    The other time is:

                                                    et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem
                                                    cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae
                                                    lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat
                                                    et LUCIFER oriatur in cordibus vestris (2Pe 1:19 Vulgate)

                                                    I am quite sure St. Peter (or, if you must, the pseudopigraphous
                                                    author of 2 Peter) is NOT asking for the devil to rise in our hearts!

                                                    > I have thoughts and questions......I've read St.
                                                    > Anthony's works and he has written that the
                                                    > Virgin Mary is Lucifer.

                                                    I am not familiar with that passage: he would have to have been using
                                                    the word in the same sense as 2 Peter 1:19Vg.

                                                    > And now that the name "Lucifer" has pretty much been
                                                    > removed from the Isaiah passage and is replaced
                                                    > with "morning star" which Revelation says is Jesus
                                                    > Christ, I have to question the motives.

                                                    But don't forget: the word 'lucifer' (as quite likely the original
                                                    Greek/Hebrew it words it translates) _can_ be used both positively and
                                                    negatively.

                                                    Nor is this phenomenon unique to the word 'lucifer'. It is notorious
                                                    that whether you read them in Greek or Hebrew, there are _several_ key
                                                    terms of Proverbs that are sometimes used in a positive sense, and
                                                    sometimes in a very negative one: 'clever' (H6175) is an example (cf.
                                                    Gen 3:1, Prv 12:16).

                                                    > What are the newer versions of the Scripture trying to tell us?

                                                    Skip the "newer versions" and stick to the Greek! Surely everyone in
                                                    this group can do this, or what would we be doing here?

                                                    Finally, I suppose I should point out that in the OT, 'lucifer'
                                                    translates one word, but in the NT, a slightly different one. So this
                                                    is not that much help deciding how to translate Isa 14:12 from the
                                                    Vulgate to English. ON that topic, however, I will say that
                                                    translating EWSFOROS as 'Satan' is a violent departure from the usual
                                                    translation philosophy of the LXX itself, which is usually _so_ much
                                                    more literal than that, being sparing and reluctant to make such bold,
                                                    theological intepretation.
                                                  • Peter Papoutsis
                                                    Dear Group. I started this thread so I think I should finish it. I know what Eosophoros means and I have made my notes on this passage. However, I must make it
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Sep 24, 2004
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                                                      Dear Group.
                                                       
                                                      I started this thread so I think I should finish it. I know what Eosophoros means and I have made my notes on this passage. However, I must make it Very Clear, and this is in response to Matthew, to translate Eosophoros as Satan IS NOT a violent departure from literalism because that is what the word means in Greek as well as Lucifer.
                                                       
                                                      I was ONLY concerned about about this word in Isaiah because the Greek Fathers interpreted this passage in reference to Satan. I must stress that in Greek Christian thought the word has come to mean the Devil. Whether the group likes it or not That what the word has come to mean.
                                                       
                                                      Now I actually liked what Kevin had to say as keeping the distrinction between Lucifer and Satan, but in Ecclesiastical Greek and in the Katherevousa dialect of Greek, which borrows heavily from both ancient and ecclesiastical Greek Eosophoros does mean Satan. That's how my father taught it to me, that's how my uncle taught it to me, that how Greeks, at least in the old counrty, understood this term.
                                                       
                                                      My mother, with very little education at the time in Greece in which she lived understood the word as this and, again, taught it to me in this fashion. So please, lets refrain from saying that Satan is a departure from literalism. IT IS NOT!
                                                       
                                                      Well, that's all I have to say about it. Now go ahead and converse amoung yourselves. I'm out of this.
                                                       
                                                      Peter


                                                      Peter A. Papoutsis


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