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3888Re: [lxx] Ancient Of Days

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  • Christopher
    Dec 13, 2012
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      Hi Peter
          As long as we can agree that the "Ancient of Days" is God, that is all I will need for my particular cause, although "Ancient of Days" seems to be the Father, from my objective reading of Daniel chapter 7 (from an English translation). However, if the Son existed before our Universe came to be, he also can take on the title. This can only be true if I can answer the question of whether or not the term "day" in every sense of its Hebrew definition, applies to time within our Universe alone. The use of the words "Ancient" and "Days" is what is important in what I am setting out to prove. Ancient as far as my understanding of the English language denotes something that has existed for a very long time. The use of the word "Days" is also important to my argument, and I claim it means a unit of time that Adam and his prodigy are familiar with, namely the period of time needed for one full rotation of the Earth. There are a few premises I am building
      upon, each following from the other. The first is proven by science. We have empirical evidence that time and space are all part of our expanding Universe. In other words, we cannot talk about the three spacial dimensions without also including a time dimension based on Special and General Relativity. I am also familiar with Scripture that makes a similar claim about our expanding Universe. The second is that we know our Universe had a beginning point, and therefore the passage of time (within our Universe) also had a beginning point. So I would conclude that "Day" can only refer to a measurement of time within the entire history of our Universe and not to anything outside of that history. Whatever is outside of our Universe is beyond our ability to measure. In Genesis chapter 1.1-5 we see the first "Day" of History end at the dawn of some, yet to be defined time period. It is not until the forth Day of creation that we see God bestow the sun, moon, and
      stars as signs (clocks) for the inhabitants of Earth. So it follows that because God defines a "day" on creation "Day" four I conclude that the creation "Days" are some other passage of time, different from, but perhaps similar to the days defined by the rotation of the Earth. Moreover, it seems that on creation "Day" four, it is not until God sees that what has been done is good, that he moves on to the next project. This would imply that not only did God set the celestial clocks, but he also made sure they were working correctly before moving on to the end of this forth "Day". It follows then that in order for God to inspect the goodness of his clock, he would allow a full rotation of the Earth for one 24 hour "day", a full orbit of the Moon for one lunar "month", a full orbit of the Earth around the Sun allowing all four seasons and a "Year", thus at least 360 rotations of the Earth, all within creation "Day" four. I must also address the evenings
      and mornings of the six creation "Days". Because there was no defined earth day until creation "Day" four, these evenings and mornings are not the same as those that occur by the rotation of the Earth outside of the light of the Sun, namely the 'evening', and then back into the light of the Sun, namely the 'morning'. From scripture, it is my claim that these are periods of inactivity as far as the creation process of each "Day" is concerned. I say this because each of the six creation "Days" has an evening and morning, that leads into the next creation "Day" in which no activity is mentioned. Is not our behavior during our 24 hour days a shadow of God's behavior during his "Days", in that we tend to retire at evening, and rise again for a new day in the morning. Were we not made in the Image of God? This then is why I think it makes little sense to conclude from Scripture, that the six "Days" of creation were merely a passage of 144 hours. However, it
      does make sense that the "Ancient of Days" is Ancient because many more days, between the point in time Adam was created up to now have gone by. No creation can take on that title, not even the Angels, only the Creator.



      Christopher


      ________________________________
      From: Peter Papoutsis <papoutsis1@...>
      To: "lxx@yahoogroups.com" <lxx@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 3:18 PM
      Subject: Re: [lxx] Ancient Of Days


       
      Christopher:
       
      The "Ancient of Day" as described in Daniel 7 of the LXX is "Jesus Christ" as declared by the Tome of the Great Council of Moscow (1666-1667 A.D.), Ch.2, pgs. 43-45.
       
      I hope this helps.

      Peter A. Papoutsis

      ________________________________
      From: andrew fincke <finckea@...>
      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 10:08 AM
      Subject: RE: [lxx] Ancient Of Days

       

      Christopher,The "ancient of days" is Samuel. See 1 Sam. 15:12: "And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal." LXX ends the verse quite a bit differently, starting with "place" (lit. "hand") it says: "And he turned the chariot and went down to Gilgal to Saul. And - look! - he offered up a burnt offering to the Lord, the firstfruits of the plunder he took from Amalek!" Samuel was a judge - 1 Sam. 7:15-17 - who worked in one place (verse 17) but also made circuits (verses 15-16). Thus he had a throne with "wheels" as Dan. 7:9 describes it. That's the chariot of 1 Sam. 15:12 LXX. The wheels were fiery, since they brought him to the burnt offering Saul was engaged in. Samuel at that time was an old man - see 1 Sam. 12:2 - and Saul a king on the verge of disenfranchisement. Dan 7:14 has Saul meeting Samuel,
      and verse 23 describes Saul's oppressive kingdom - see 1 Samuel 8:11-17 about "devour the whole earth." Verse 26 describes the destruction of the Davidic dynasty and verse 27 the establishment of the Christian church. Andrw Fincke
      To: mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com
      From: mailto:rhoadess%40yahoo.com
      Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:35:40 +0000
      Subject: [lxx] Ancient Of Days

      Dear LXX Scholars

      I was wondering how one can understand the title Ancient of Days as seen in Daniel chapter seven in relation to the six Creation Days in Genesis Chapter 1. Let us fist accept that the idea of time and thus the passage of days or any measure of time makes no sense unless the universe exist. This is proven by Einstein's theory of general relativity i.e. Space-Time. Might one be able to conclude that the use of the word days in the title Ancient of Days, implies many days, say thousands, or even millions of days, as far as we measure the passage of one 24/12 hour period. This conclusion would then force the use of the word day in Genesis 1 to take on the definition of long periods of time, rather than a 24 hour period. The reason I bring this up is that Ancient of Days makes no sense if we assume Genesis chapter 1's use of day is the 24/12 hour definition. That would mean that the title Ancient of Days could apply to anyone who is at lest 5 days older than
      someone else.

      Godspeed

      Christopher

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