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3847Re: [lxx] Re: Philo of Alexandria and Josephus' comments on the Septuagint(any?)

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  • mike karoules
    Oct 23, 2012
          Robert,  thank you.
      I have a correction in my first paragraph (about Justin Martyr) which should have read basically as this:  "I was under the impression that all of Justin Martyr's works were authentic including the 'Discourse to the Greeks.' "   So, I guess I am mistaken here.   So, only   "Discourse to to the Greeks"  is spurious among Justin's writings?
      I also think we can agree that by and large the letter of Aristeas is a total fabrication and nearly "Alice in Wonderland"  account of the Septuagint.  But what you say about its' relavence is not to be tossed aside too quickly.  I guess we should accept the fact the much of the translation of the Septuagint into Greek is shrouded in mystery, unfortunately. 
      About early testimony of the Greek Septuagint being DISTRIBUTED throughouth most all of the known world,  Philo of Alexandria does say something about this but it is really quick.
      Thanks so much Robert for the time to give me feedback and information.
      Take care now,
      Mike Karoules
      P.S.  I guess I could say something about the Old Greek just real briefly.    By saying the  "Old Greek"  I mean  the Greek that made up the first Septuagint texts (in Greek) prior to Aquila; Theodotian and Symanchus or Symmachus(spelling of his name, bad. 

      --- On Tue, 10/23/12, Robert Kraft <kraft@...> wrote:

      From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...>
      Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Philo of Alexandria and Josephus' comments on the Septuagint(any?)
      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 2:06 PM


      mike karoules wrote:
      > To Robert Kraft;
      > Thanks for your response, Robert. I didn't even think of to bring up
      > Aristeas' letter in the first post to this thread because to my
      > understanding the general consensus among textual students and
      > scholars is that it is spurious, or more-less a forgery. So I have
      > not taken that into consideration. Actually, I was under the
      > impression that all the extant works of Justin (and also Justin's
      > Discourse to the Greeks) but that the letter of Aristeas is spurious.
      Aristeas may be "spurious," in the sense that it is not what it claims
      to be, but it apparently is the oldest surviving version of the legend
      of the translation of the Pentateuch into Greek, dating probably to the
      2nd century bce, and thus basic for your interests. The judgment
      "spurious" does not automatically disqualify something from being relevant.

      > I have not heard of Melito of Sardis so I may have to check him out.
      > Is he a Greek writer?
      Yes, a late 2nd century Christian writer from Asia Minor who is asked by
      his consituents to get information about the Jewish scriptures
      (presumably in Greek translation) and travels to the east to find out.
      He returns with excerpts as well as a list of books (perhaps by that
      time codices). He has nothing directly to do with Alexandria, and knows
      versions of Greek scriptural texts that are not yet collected into a
      single entity or listed in a specific order. But he gets what he
      considers to be relevant information, apparently from sources in the
      holy land. See also the work of Origen and the library of Caesarea in
      the following centuries.

      > I realize the the Old Greek Septuagint was, for the most part, never
      > collected together as a single unit (as such) but was translated into
      > Greek from the Hebrew over a period of a number of years or probably a
      > number of decades.
      And probably a number of different places. So why call it "the Old Greek
      Septuagint" if it did not become such until around the 4the century?
      "It" is a collection of different translations of various books or
      units, sometimes with two or more translations of the same material
      competing with each other (e.g. the Minor Prophets used by Justin).

      > Do you know right off hand where in Josephus he elaborates on the work
      > of translation of Hebrew OT into Greek? Does he talk about its
      > distribution as well , if you recall?
      No need to recall. It is all online. See Antiquities 12.2 at
      http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-12.htm. He seems to
      assume that his readers, probably in Rome as well as elsewhere, would be
      familiar with the translations.

      > You mentioned something to the nature of Justin being in Asia Minor.
      > You know that he was raised in Samaria, no?
      Yes, but his main career as we know it was between Ephesus in Asia Minor
      and Rome.

      > Thank you Robert for your input and time into this question that I have.
      > Take care
      > Kindly,
      > Mike Karoules
      It is very easy these days to investigate such questions online.
      Although there are sometimes some weaknesses in the entries, Wikipedia
      has lots of relevant material under "Aristeas," "Septuagint," and
      similar articles. You would do well to check them out and then pursue
      any remaining questions on lists such as this.

      Bob Kraft

      > --- On Tue, 10/23/12, Robert Kraft <kraft@...
      > <mailto:kraft%40sas.upenn.edu>> wrote:
      > From: Robert Kraft <kraft@... <mailto:kraft%40sas.upenn.edu>>
      > Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Philo of Alexandria and Josephus' comments on
      > the Septuagint(any?)
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 12:59 AM
      > I'm surprised that you have not yet received any responses. People must
      > be busy with other things these days. Your question, which relates
      > especially to the translation of the Pentateuch ("the LXX" proper) is
      > easily answered if you would consult literature on the "Epistle of
      > Aristeas" (check it in a search engine), which tells the old story that
      > gets picked up in varying forms by other writers such as Philo,
      > Josephus, Justin, et al. Incidentally, the Discourse to the Greeks
      > attributed to Justin is usually considered to be spurious, although that
      > does not make it irrelevant for your questions. On the use of Greek
      > translations of the various portions of the collection that came to be
      > considered Jewish scriptures, you should also look closely at the works
      > of Melito of Sardis, in Asia Minor, at the end of the 2nd century.
      > Justin himself (perhaps also in Asia Minor) knows a Greek translation of
      > the Minor Prophets scroll which was not the same as the translation
      > later included in Greek Jewish scriptures, but of which fragments have
      > been found in the Judean Desert finds (at Nahal Hever; see the edition
      > by Emanuel Tov). The question is complicated especially by the
      > assumption that some single unit (like a modern codex book) called "the
      > Septuagint" existed in the first and second centuries of the common era.
      > There was no coordinated translation effort that covered everything that
      > by the 4th century would be considered Greek Jewish scriptures, but
      > various translations of various scripturesque writings were produced and
      > later gathered together.
      > Bob Kraft, emeritus professor University of Pennsylvania
      > On 10/22/2012 4:42 PM, mikek wrote:
      > > I would like to piggy back on my own thread and expand this
      > question. So, not only Philo and Josephus, but does anyone have any
      > knowledge of any of the Ante-Nicene writers comments on about the
      > Greek translation of the Old Testament (LXX) and its' DISTRIBUTION AND
      > USE OUTSIDE OF ALEXANDRIA? Where may I find these comments?
      > >
      > > Take care everyone.
      > >
      > > Kindly,
      > >
      > > Mike Karoules
      > >
      > > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>, mike
      > karoules <steelcurtain40@...> wrote:
      > >> Hello folks. another topic to begin I hope.
      > >>
      > >> I have just read some Justin Martyr's works and some comments he
      > made about the translation of the Septuagint that he apparantly used
      > during his day. See Dialogue with Trypho the Jew (chapters 69-73,
      > approximately; Apology chapter 21 [I believe, or thereabouts] and
      > Justin's Discourse to the Greeks, ch. 13]: Early Christian Texts). It
      > was on Justin's "Discourse to the Greeks" where he alluded to the fact
      > that Philo of Alexandria and Josephus also wrote a bit (or some) how
      > the Greek Septuagint was formed. So, can anyone tell me where (with
      > Philo) he mentions how or summerizes how the GREEK Septuagint was
      > formed and if he also mentions to what extent the GREEK Septuagint was
      > distributed or scattered throughout the Roman Empire? With Josephus
      > too, can anyone tell me where in their works (in their literature)
      > where they discuss the GREEK Septuagint and its distribution to other
      > locations OUTSIDE OF
      > >> ALEXANDRIA?
      > >>
      > >> I ask this because, in reading the few places where Justin talks
      > about the Greek (LXX) Septuagint (its history[briefly]) he does not
      > seem to really cover its distribution outside of ALEXANDRIA. So, I am
      > looking for any material that mentions the DISTRIBUTION of the Greek
      > ALEXANDRIA after its translation.
      > >>
      > >> To what degree did the Jews use the Greek LXX(outside of
      > Alexandria) after it was translated??
      > >>
      > >> Tks for any feedback on this.
      > >>
      > >> Kindly,
      > >>
      > >> Mike Karoules
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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