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3800Re: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?

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  • Robert Kraft
    Aug 1, 2012
      I'm afraid I read your original message too quickly --

      "I just want to correct one point from this otherwise helpful post. The Qumran LXX fragments are few and tiny: 7Q1, with Exodus 28:4-7, and 4Q119-122. Some of the conclusions drawn below may need to be adjusted accordingly."

      Since you identified 7QLXX Exodus explicitly, I didn't notice what was
      included in the 4Q listing (4 more fragments, Lev (2), Num, Deut).
      Sorry. I need to be more attentive.

      Bob

      On 8/1/2012 8:09 PM, Ken Penner wrote:
      > Bob, are you saying there are more Qumran LXX fragments than 7Q1 and 4Q119-122? I don’t see any at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak/earlylxx/jewishpap.html#jewishmss , although I see 1 Enoch and the Letter of Jeremiah, as well as copies from locations other than Qumran. What am I missing?
      > Ken
      >
      > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
      > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
      > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
      > kpenner@...
      >
      >
      >
      > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Kraft
      > Sent: August-01-12 7:19 PM
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
      >
      >
      >
      > For a collection of the earliest preserved Greek fragments, with links
      > to (some) images and (some) commentary, see
      > http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak//earlylxx/jewishpap.html<http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak/earlylxx/jewishpap.html> --
      > this material is in need of some updating, but can provide a useful
      > starting point. By checking the list (see Quicklinks), you will note
      > that there is more from Qumran than Ken Penner noted, although certainly
      > not a flood. And perhaps of special interest is the fragment from the
      > "apocryphal" Letter of Jeremiah from cave 7, where most of the Greek
      > materials were found.
      >
      > Bob Kraft
      >
      > On 8/1/2012 11:55 AM, Abram Kielsmeier-Jones wrote:
      >> Bob, Ken, and others:
      >>
      >> Thanks for the replies and clarifications. Duly noted about
      >> anachronisms. What I should have said/asked was something about Jesus
      >> using a text that was closer to a Greek scroll available at the time
      >> vs. a Hebrew one. I often fall prey to what I'm sure is the common
      >> language student fallacy of thinking that by being able to work my way
      >> through the BHS, NA27, or Rahlfs' LXX, I now have access to the
      >> ever-elusive original. But of course that's not quite true. That's
      >> why, among other good reasons, so many folks fruitfully engage in
      >> textual criticism.
      >>
      >> If I wanted to further explore what Jesus had access to (in terms of
      >> Greek scrolls, whether Isaiah or some other), does anyone (Prof.
      >> Kraft?) have good recommendations on where to go?
      >>
      >> Thanks,
      >>
      >> Abram
      >>
      >> ________________________________
      >> From: Robert Kraft <kraft@...<mailto:kraft%40sas.upenn.edu> <mailto:kraft%40sas.upenn.edu>>
      >> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 10:58 AM
      >> Subject: Re: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Just a reminder on such questions. There was no "the LXX" in our sense
      >> of "Bible" -- and no "MT" -- in the first century. It was a scroll
      >> society, and while collections of scrolls may have existed in some
      >> places, it is quite anachronistic to think of traveling individuals
      >> having all those scrolls along. More appropriate would be to speak of
      >> book by book usage (did Jesus know the Greek Isaiah scroll, for
      >> example), or in many instances, of the use of excerpts. The "playing
      >> field" was quite different from what is often assumed.
      >>
      >> Bob Kraft, emeritus UPenn
      >>
      >> On 7/31/2012 8:55 PM, Ken Penner wrote:
      >>> Yes, the two questions are separate: (1) whether Jesus read the
      >> scriptures in Greek or Hebrew, and (2) whether the Gospel writers
      >> quoted from the Greek or Hebrew.
      >>> Regarding the question whether the Gospels quote from the Greek or
      >> Hebrew, there are some detailed data at
      >> http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/Septuagint/spexecsum.htm
      >>> The answer there (to question 2) is that that the Gospel writers'
      >> quotes match the "Septuagint" more often than the Masoretic Text.
      >>> The answer to question 1 is less empirical, but depends on what
      >> languages Jesus would have used. We have evidence that he spoke
      >> Aramaic and/or Hebrew, but the evidence that he spoke Greek at all is
      >> flimsy (IMO).
      >>>
      >>> Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
      >>> Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
      >>> http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
      >>> kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca> <mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
      >> Of abramkielsmeierjones
      >>> Sent: July-31-12 6:17 PM
      >>> To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>> Subject: [lxx] Did Jesus use the Septuagint?
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> The reading I'm doing is leading me to believe he did not (he spoke
      >>> Aramaic, etc.). I began to think and write otherwise here
      >>> <http://wp.me/p2muvc-5E> , but then posted updates to what I am now
      >>> afraid was a wrong-headed claim: namely, that Jesus used the Septuagint.
      >>>
      >>> I'm reading R.T. France and about to read Steve Moyise on the subject.
      >>> What I can see being concluded with certainty is that there are *some*
      >>> Gospel texts where the words the Gospel writer has Jesus saying agree
      >>> with the LXX against the MT (France lists a number of these)...
      >>> certainly not all cases, but that it does happen. But is this a
      >>> different thing than saying Jesus himself used the Septuagint?
      >>>
      >>> That's my thought, but any LXX vets on here that can offer me some
      >>> suggestions or even further resources on the topic would be great. I'm
      >>> new here, so my apologies if this has already been discussed on this
      >>> forum.
      >>>
      >>> Thanks,
      >>>
      >>> Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
      >>> ---------------------------
      >>> Abram K-J
      >>> Blog: Words on the Word <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/>
      >>> Septuagint <http://abramkj.wordpress.com/tag/septuagint/> posts-to-date
      >>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
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