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3745RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

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  • andrew fincke
    Oct 17, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Ken and Dick,
      Here’s a selection of places where אל and על are confused in 1-2 Samuel. Underlined is the evidence from 4QSam-a. The three interesting places are 12710, 20327 and 22405. At 12710 I considered κατα to be the equivalent of “into” and translated Vaticanus/Lucianic “and to the south of the Kenezei.” But the evidence of 4QSam-a, which agrees with Vaticanus and Lucianic at the second member of the trio with אל = κατα for על of the masoretic text suggests that κατα can be interpreted both ways – אל and על. At 20327 – treated extensively by Cross/Saley at p. 114 – we have עד in 4QSam-a for nothing in the masoretic text and εις in Vaticanus and επι in the Lucianic group. Here the Lucianic Greek scribes read 4QSam-a עד as על – a common mistake. Lamed and dalet are identical when lamed has its shaft stripped, and delta δ and lamda λ are identical in uncial script (Δ and Λ). At 22405, where we have no 4QSam-a evidence, Vaticanus incorporates אֵל into the place-name “Yezer” to get “Eliezer.” For the unitiated, “into” and “to” correspond to אל, while “on” and “upon” correspond to על. Where we have περι “concerning” in the Greek, that is the equivalent of על as in “spoke over” = “spoke about.” To the form: "10227" is 1 Samuel 2:27.





      Verse

      Hebrew

      Greek-Vaticanus

      Greek-Lucianic


      10110

      She prayed on the Lord

      She prayed to the Lord

      (same)


      10113

      on her heart

      in her heart

      (same)


      10127

      I prayed to this lad

      I prayed over this lad

      (same)


      10211

      And Alkana walked … upon his house

      (omit)

      And they walked … to their house


      10312

      I will fulfill to Eli all that I said to his house

      I will fulfill over Eli all that I said to his house

      I will fulfill over Eli all that I said over his house


      10314

      I swore to Eli’s house

      (same)

      (same)


      10419

      into the capture of the ark

      that the ark was captured

      (same)


      10420

      standing on her

      standing to her

      (same)


      10421

      into the capture of the ark of God and into her father-in-law and her husband

      over the capture of the ark of God and over her father-in-law and over her husband

      (same)


      10504

      to the threshold

      on the threshold … on the doorstep

      (same)


      10506

      And the Lord’s hand was heavy to the Ashdodites

      And the Lord’s hand was heavy on Azota

      (same)


      10608

      put the ark … to the cart

      put the ark … on the cart

      (same)


      10611

      put the ark … to the cart

      put the ark … on the cart

      (same)


      10612

      on the way of Beyt Shemesh

      to the way of Beyt Shemesh

      (same)


      10615

      and they placed (it) to the rock

      and they placed (it) on the rock

      (same)


      10906

      we walked upon it

      we walked to it

      (same)


      11219

      we added upon all our sins

      we added to all our sins

      we added upon all our sins


      11404

      to pass over on the Philistine outpost

      to pass over the Philistine outpost

      to pass over to the Philistine outpost


      11410

      Come up on us!

      Come up to us!

      (same)


      11432

      jumped … to the plunder

      (same)

      jumped … on the plunder


      11433

      to eat on the blood

      to eat with the blood

      (same)


      11519

      And you did to the plunder

      But you hurried to be placed on the plunder

      But you rushed on the plunder


      11535

      He mourned to Saul

      He mourned over Saul

      (same)


      11703

      And Philistines stood to the mountain on this side, and Israel stood to the mountain on this side

      And Philistines stood on the mountain on this side, and Israel stood on the mountain on this side

      And Philistines stood on the mountain on this side, and Israel stood from the mountain on this side


      11751

      And he stood to the Philistine

      And he stood on him

      (same)


      11913

      And she placed (them) to the bed

      And she placed (them) on the bed

      (same)


      12024

      He sat on the bread to eat (keri: He sat at the bread to eat)

      He came on the table to eat

      (same)


      12025

      He sat on his seat … at the seat (next to) the wall

      He sat on his seat … on the seat by the wall

      He sat on his seat … by the wall


      12114

      And his spittle went down to his chin

      And his spittle went down on his chin

      (same)


      12206

      standing on him

      standing to him

      (same)


      12207

      standing on him

      standing to him

      (same)


      12217

      standing on him

      standing to him

      standing on him


      12423

      went up on the fortress

      went up into the Messera

      (same)


      12513

      sat on the equipment

      sat with the equipment

      sat upon the equipment


      12517

      on our lord and on all his house

      into our lord and into his house

      on our lord and on all his house


      12601

      on the face of the Yeshimon

      at the face of the Yeshimon

      (same)


      12708

      And they swarmed to the Geshurites

      And they swarmed on the Geshurites

      And they swarmed on the neighboring (peoples) and they extended on the Geshurites


      12710

      on the south of Judah and on the south of the Yarchmalites and to the south of the Kenites

      to the south of Judaea and to the south of Iesmega and to the south of Kenezei

      (same)


      12823

      And he sat to the bed

      And he sat on the bed

      (same)


      13001

      And the Amalekites swooped to the south and to Siklag

      And the Amalekites swooped on the south and on Siklag

      (same)


      13103

      And the warfare was heavy to Saul

      And the warfare was heavy on Saul

      (same)


      13111

      And they heard (the report) to him

      And they heard (the report)

      And they heard (the report) about him


      13014

      south of Kreti

      on the south of Kreti

      (same)


      20109

      Stand on me!

      (same)

      (same)


      20209

      And he made him king to Gilead and to the Assyrians and to Jezreel and to Ephraim and to Benjamin and to all of Israel

      And he made him king over the Gileaditin and over the Thaseiri and over Israel and over Ephraim and over Benjamin and over all Israel

      (same with Ezrei for Thaseiri)


      20219

      walk neither on the right nor on the left

      walk neither into the right nor into left

      (same)


      20221

      on your right or on your left

      into the right or into the left

      (same)


      20223

      to the guts

      upon the guts

      (same)


      20327

      And he smote him there the guts

      And he smote him there into the guts

      And he smote him there on the guts


      20329

      And let (the blood) dance on Joab’s head and to all his father’s house!

      Let (the blood) fall on Joab’s head and on all his father’s house!

      on Joab’s head and on all his father’s house!


      20332

      And he wept to Abner’s grave

      And he wept on his grave

      And he wept on Abner’s grave


      20333

      And the king lamented to Abner

      And the king lamented over Abner

      (same)


      20334

      to weep over him

      to weep him

      (same)


      20402

      was counted on Benjamin

      was counted to the sons of Benjamin

      (same)


      20603

      And they mounted the ark of God to a new cart

      And they mounted the ark of the Lord on a new cart

      And they mounted the ark of God on a new cart


      20603

      And they lifted it up from the house

      And he lifted it up into the house

      And he lifted it up from the house


      20606

      And he stretched out (his hand) to the ark

      And he stretched out his hand on the ark

      And he stretched out his hand to the ark


      20610

      And David didn’t want to bring to himself the ark of the Lord on the City of David

      And David didn’t want to bring to himself the ark of the covenant of the Lord to the City of David

      (same)


      20719

      And You also spoke to Your servant’s house

      And You spoke over Your servant’s house

      (same)


      20728

      And You spoke to Your servant these good things

      And You spoke over Your servant these good things

      (same)


      20807

      the golden shields that were to Hadadazar’s servants

      the golden shields that he made on Hadadazar’s servants

      the golden shields that were on Hadadazar’s servants


      21002

      to comfort him to his father

      to comfort him about his father

      (same)


      21116

      And when Joab guarded to the city he gave Uriah to the place

      And when Joab guarded on the city he placed Uriah to the place

      And when Joab guarded on the city he gave Uriah upon the place


      21123

      Because the men prevailed over us, and they went out to us to the field, and we were on them

      (same with “on us” for “to us”)

      Because the men prevailed on us, and the men went out upon us to the field, and we drove them


      21124

      And the archers shot to your servants

      (same)

      And the arrows reigned down on your servants


      21333

      Please don’t place to his heart!

      Please don’t place on his heart!

      (same)


      21339

      And (the spirit) of King David abated from going forth to Absalom

      (same)

      And the sprit of King David rested from going forth on Absalom


      21422

      And Joab fell to his face

      And Joab fell on his face

      (same)


      21430

      Joab’s portion to my hand

      the portion in Joab’s field next to me (i.e. “on my hand”)

      the portion neighboring us in Joab’s field


      21502

      on the hand of the way of the gate

      at the hand of the way of the gate

      on the way of the gate


      21712

      And we will come to him in one of the places where he is found, and we will camp on him

      And we will come to him in one of the places where we find him, and we will camp on him

      And we will come on him in one of the places where we find him, and we will terrify him


      21803

      They will not place to us heart

      They will not place upon us heart

      (same)


      21824

      And the watchman went to the roof of the gate to the wall

      (same)

      And the watchman walked on the roof of the gate on the wall


      21826

      And the watchman cried to the gate-keeper

      And the watchman cried to the gate

      And the watchman cried upon the gate


      21908

      speak on the heart

      speak into the heart

      speak on the heart


      21936

      burden to my lord, the king

      burden on my lord, the king

      (same)


      22010

      into the guts

      (same)

      upon the guts


      22015

      And they poured out an embankment to the city

      (same)

      And they poured out an embankment on the city


      22023

      And Joab (was) to all the army of Israel

      (same)

      And Joab (was) over all the army of Israel


      22101

      to Saul and to the house of blood

      on Saul and on his house the sin on account of him in the death of blood

      on Saul and on his house the sin on account of him killing in the death of blood


      22110

      And she stretched it out for herself to the rock

      (same)

      And she stretched it out for herself on the rock


      22310

      And his hand stuck to the sword

      (same)

      And his hand stuck on the sword


      22403

      And the Lord added to the people

      (same)

      And the Lord added on the people


      22404

      And the king’s word prevailed to Joab

      (same)

      And the king’s word prevailed over Joab


      22405

      and to Yezer

      and Eliezer (and אֵלiezer)

      and Iezer


      22407

      And they came to the south of Judah

      (same)

      And they came on the south of Judah


      22416

      And the Lord repented to the evil

      And the Lord repented over the evil

      (same)
      Andrew Fincke





      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      CC: saley@...
      From: saley@...
      Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:00:18 -0400
      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1






      Hi Ken,

      No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies . . .

      I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige recension."

      Cheers,
      Dick
      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
      Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
      Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
      Harvard University
      Six Divinity Avenue
      Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
      Tel: 617-495-4239
      Fax: 617-496-8904
      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      ________________________________________
      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [kpenner@...]
      Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

      Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.



      One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or επι?

      In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.



      Ken



      Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.

      Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:

      http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/

      kpenner@...







      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley, Richard

      Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM

      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com

      Cc: Saley, Richard

      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







      Hi Ken,



      In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?' Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Let me see if I can explain:



      1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes Hebrew על as you have noted.



      2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι, presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.



      3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also reflects Hebrew אל.



      4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S) and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance, completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).



      5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the Lucianic tradition).



      6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.



      I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.



      Cheers,

      Dick





      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.

      Lecturer on the Ancient Near East

      Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations

      Harvard University

      Six Divinity Avenue

      Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA

      Tel: 617-495-4239

      Fax: 617-496-8904

      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



      ________________________________________

      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]

      Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM

      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>

      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



      Thanks, Andy.



      I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?



      Ken











      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew fincke



      Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM



      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1















      Dear Ken,



      Here it is!



      The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class' vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So, (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ... אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).



      Andrew Fincke











      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



      From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>



      Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300



      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1































      Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.



      Cheers,



      Ken







      Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.



      Assistant Professor, Religious Studies



      St. Francis Xavier University



      902-867-2265



      kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>















      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John Milton



      Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM



      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



      Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1















      Hi Ken,







      I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.







      Thanks,







      J







      On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>> wrote:







      > **



      >



      >



      > Dick wrote:



      > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of



      > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”



      > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the



      > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me



      > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew



      > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the



      > typical translation of אל.



      >



      > Ken



      >



      >



      > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.



      > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:



      > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot



      > St. Francis Xavier University



      > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>



      >



      >



      >



      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      >



      >



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