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3744RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

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  • andrew fincke
    Oct 16, 2011
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      'Ken et al.,
      Sorry about the "1)"s. They are displaced and belong before the "Kgs": "1 Kgs 14:14" and "1 Kgs 15:4." Otherwise the citation of DJD 17 is correct with the exception that the Gothic symbol for "masoretic text" is a nonGothic "M," and the Gothic symbol for "Old Latin" has been expanded to "Lucianic Greek manuscripts." The discussion in DJD 17 seeks nothing but to advance 4QSam-a, which Cross discovered and made readable and most of whose fragments he identified. That in his latter days he went a little overboard in making speculative identifications of illegible fragments doesn't detract from his epochal achievement, nor from Dick Saley's contribution in getting Cross' thinking - reminiscences? - in print. The fly in the ointment is "Old Greek," a term which McCarter, 477 (see the DJD quote) studiously avoids. Best I can do is give you this citation from Herbert, Reconstructing Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Method Applied to the Reconstruction of 4QSam-a, STJD 22, Leiden (Brill), 1977, 190: "Ulrich (113-114) claims that "Vaticanus failed to understand M and in its literalism inserted into the OG text επι (for על) before χριστον, thus distorting the meaning,' but this is ... conjectural." By "Ulrich" I assume he means The Qumran Text of Samuel and Josephus, 1978.
      Andrew Fincke





      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      From: kpenner@...
      Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:06:58 -0300
      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1





      Thanks, Andy.
      I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?
      Ken


      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of andrew fincke
      Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



      Dear Ken,
      Here it is!
      The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class' vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So, (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ... אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
      Andrew Fincke


      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
      Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







      Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
      Cheers,
      Ken

      Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
      Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
      St. Francis Xavier University
      902-867-2265
      kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>



      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John Milton
      Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



      Hi Ken,

      I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.

      Thanks,

      J

      On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Dick wrote:
      > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
      > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
      > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the
      > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me
      > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew
      > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
      > typical translation of אל.
      >
      > Ken
      >
      >
      > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
      > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
      > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
      > St. Francis Xavier University
      > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >

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