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3743Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

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  • John Milton
    Oct 18, 2011
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      Hi Ken and Dick,

      It still seems that the 'al is superfluous in the MT. The verb qwm is
      sufficient and not necessary to have the collocation of the verb and 'al .
      Even the internal link or echo to 2 Sam 7:12 has only the verb qwm. Why does
      the MT's reading add the substantive - how does it add to the reading?
      Finally, can wee say that the kaige recension reflects the reading of 'al as
      a preposition (breaking from the MT on its vocalization as well as its
      accent)?

      Best,

      John


      On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Saley, Richard <saley@...>wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Hi Ken,
      >
      > No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the
      > Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should
      > have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies .
      > . .
      >
      > I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right
      > conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige
      > recension."
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Dick
      > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
      > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
      > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
      > Harvard University
      > Six Divinity Avenue
      > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
      > Tel: 617-495-4239
      > Fax: 617-496-8904
      > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > ________________________________________
      > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [
      > kpenner@...]
      > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
      >
      > Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.
      >
      >
      >
      > One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or
      > επι?
      >
      > In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the
      > επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew
      > Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.
      >
      >
      >
      > Ken
      >
      >
      >
      > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
      >
      > Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:
      >
      > http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/
      >
      > kpenner@...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley,
      > Richard
      >
      > Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM
      >
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Cc: Saley, Richard
      >
      > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Ken,
      >
      >
      >
      > In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the
      > discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not
      > the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?'
      > Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek.
      > Let me see if I can explain:
      >
      >
      >
      > 1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best
      > mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam
      > 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by
      > Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis
      > of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes
      > Hebrew על as you have noted.
      >
      >
      >
      > 2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι,
      > presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.
      >
      >
      >
      > 3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage
      > of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb
      > הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also
      > reflects Hebrew אל.
      >
      >
      >
      > 4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted
      > that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S)
      > and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus
      > and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In
      > addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance,
      > completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically
      > worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).
      >
      >
      >
      > 5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen
      > that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or
      > 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the
      > Lucianic tradition).
      >
      >
      >
      > 6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and
      > Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and
      > Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data
      > elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the
      > process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew
      > occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the
      > associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.
      >
      >
      >
      > I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.
      >
      >
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Dick
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
      >
      > Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
      >
      > Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
      >
      > Harvard University
      >
      > Six Divinity Avenue
      >
      > Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
      >
      > Tel: 617-495-4239
      >
      > Fax: 617-496-8904
      >
      > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________
      >
      > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [
      > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner
      > [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]
      >
      > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM
      >
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks, Andy.
      >
      >
      >
      > I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the
      > original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι
      > come from, if not from על?
      >
      >
      >
      > Ken
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
      > lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew
      > fincke
      >
      >
      >
      > Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM
      >
      >
      >
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >
      > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
      >
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      >
      > Dear Ken,
      >
      >
      >
      > Here it is!
      >
      >
      >
      > The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M
      > was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling
      > together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent
      > colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class'
      > vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel
      > above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is
      > הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So,
      > (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the
      > discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for
      > the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה
      > אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ...
      > אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).
      >
      >
      >
      > Andrew Fincke
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      >
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >
      > From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
      >
      >
      >
      > Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300
      >
      >
      >
      > Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
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      > Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If
      > you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.
      >
      >
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      >
      >
      > Ken
      >
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      >
      > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
      >
      >
      >
      > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
      >
      >
      >
      > St. Francis Xavier University
      >
      >
      >
      > 902-867-2265
      >
      >
      >
      > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>
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      > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:
      > lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John
      > Milton
      >
      >
      >
      > Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM
      >
      >
      >
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
      > lxx%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >
      >
      > Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1
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      > Hi Ken,
      >
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      > I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.
      >
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      > Thanks,
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > J
      >
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      >
      > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:
      > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
      > wrote:
      >
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      > > **
      >
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      > >
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      > >
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      > > Dick wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of
      >
      >
      >
      > > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”
      >
      >
      >
      > > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize
      > the
      >
      >
      >
      > > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to
      > me
      >
      >
      >
      > > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the
      > Hebrew
      >
      >
      >
      > > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the
      >
      >
      >
      > > typical translation of אל.
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > > Ken
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
      >
      >
      >
      > > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:
      >
      >
      >
      > > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot
      >
      >
      >
      > > St. Francis Xavier University
      >
      >
      >
      > > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca
      > ><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:
      > kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>
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