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3742RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

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  • Saley, Richard
    Oct 17, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Ken,

      No wonder you were confused! My statement in the previous email that “the Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל” was erroneous! It should have read: “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek was clearly אל.” Apologies . . .

      I'm heartened, though, that despite my slipup you came to the right conclusion: "the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige recension."

      Cheers,
      Dick
      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.
      Lecturer on the Ancient Near East
      Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations
      Harvard University
      Six Divinity Avenue
      Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA
      Tel: 617-495-4239
      Fax: 617-496-8904
      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      ________________________________________
      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [kpenner@...]
      Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 6:23 AM
      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1

      Thanks for this helpful explanation, Dick.



      One confusion remains in my mind: do you think the OG here was εις/προς or επι?

      In point #5 and 6 below, I would think the OG had εις/προς, and that the επι was from the kaige recension, but earlier you spoke of “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι”.



      Ken



      Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.

      Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:

      http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash/

      kpenner@...







      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saley, Richard

      Sent: October-16-11 7:56 PM

      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com

      Cc: Saley, Richard

      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1







      Hi Ken,



      In your last comments on the subject you state: 'I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?' Actually, DJD 17 is attempting to establish the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Let me see if I can explain:



      1) When all is said and done, the Old Greek for 2 Sam 23 is lost. The best mss for the Old Greek in the books of Samuel are B-y-a2. However, from 2 Sam 10:1 (or 11:2) though the end of 2 Sam the Old Greek has been overwritten by Kaige Greek, a late (1st cent. BCE?) revision of the Old Greek on the basis of the proto-Masoretic Hebrew text. This text reads επι which presumes Hebrew על as you have noted.



      2) The main hexaplaric mss for Samuel are A-c-x. These also read επι, presuming על, and like B-y-a2 reflect a Masoretic-type text.



      3) The Lucianic Greek texts b-o-c2-e2 read ο θεος which reflects a Vorlage of אל (taken as the word 'God' and made subject of the [unpointed] verb הקם). The Old Latin, almost certainly rendering the Lucianic tradition, also reflects Hebrew אל.



      4) If you are using Rahlfs for your Septuagint text, it should be noted that Rahlfs is primarily based on the uncials Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (S) and Alexandrinus (A). Sinaiticus is not extant for this passge and Vaticanus and Alexandrinus both reflect the Masoretic reading as noted above. In addition, it should be stated that Rahlfs, despite all of his brilliance, completely misjudged the Lucianic tradition and considered it basically worthless (and hence for a passage as this, of no value).



      5) The Qumran scrolls of 4QSam-a,b,c repeatedly reflect Hebrew Vorlagen that read אל in agreement with the Old Greek (1 Sam 1:1--2 Sam 9:13 [or 11:1]) reading of εις or προς (appearing also with regularity in the Lucianic tradition).



      6) So, the bottom line is that we have EARLY witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect אל (εις/προς) and LATE witnesses in both Hebrew (and Greek) that reflect על (επι). These data in Samuel, as well as other data elsewhere, strongly suggest that the difference is best accounted for by the process stated in DJD 17, i.e., the confusion of אל and על in late Hebrew occasioned by the weakening of the laryngeals and the coloring of the associated vowel of על to an ‘e’ sound.



      I hope this is helpful in understanding the write-up in DJD 17.



      Cheers,

      Dick





      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      Richard J. Saley, Ph.D.

      Lecturer on the Ancient Near East

      Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations

      Harvard University

      Six Divinity Avenue

      Cambridge, MA 02138-2091 USA

      Tel: 617-495-4239

      Fax: 617-496-8904

      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



      ________________________________________

      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Ken Penner [kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>]

      Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:06 AM

      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>

      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1



      Thanks, Andy.



      I take it that the discussion in DJD 17 seeks to determine only the original Hebrew, and not the Vorlage of the Old Greek. Where did the επι come from, if not from על?



      Ken











      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of andrew fincke



      Sent: October-16-11 12:31 AM



      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1















      Dear Ken,



      Here it is!



      The reading of 4QSama makes clear that the corruption of the phrase in M was owing to the well-known interchange of אל and על, rooted in the falling together of the two with the weakening of the laryngeals and the subsequent colouring (sic!) of the associated vowels (both pronounced with 'e-class' vowels) in late Hebrew. Examples of the confusion may be found in 2 Samuel above in VARIANTS to 3:37, 22:43 and passim. Thus the superior reading is הקים אל, with 4QSama, Old Latin and the Lucianic Greek manuscripts. So, (sic!) Cross, Canaanite Myth, 234, n. 66. For a brief history of the discussion, see McCarter, II Samuel, 477. Compare the standard formula for the establishment of kings by God: והקים יהוה לו מלך (1 Kgs 14:14); יהוה אלהיו ... להקים את בנו (1Kgs 15:4); יהוה והקמתי (Jer 23:5); יהוה אלהיהם ... אקים (Jer 30:9). (Cross/Saley, 186).



      Andrew Fincke











      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



      From: kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>



      Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:29:05 -0300



      Subject: RE: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1































      Thanks for your willingness, but it seems the list strips attachments. If you had a chance to send it directly, that would be great.



      Cheers,



      Ken







      Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.



      Assistant Professor, Religious Studies



      St. Francis Xavier University



      902-867-2265



      kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>















      From: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of John Milton



      Sent: October-15-11 12:43 PM



      To: lxx@yahoogroups.com<mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:lxx%40yahoogroups.com>



      Subject: Re: [lxx] 2 Sam 23:1















      Hi Ken,







      I've attached a copy of the discussion on page 186 of DJD 17.







      Thanks,







      J







      On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 6:09 AM, Ken Penner <kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>> wrote:







      > **



      >



      >



      > Dick wrote:



      > “The Hebrew Vorlage of the Old Greek επι was clearly אל, the reading of



      > 4QSam-a as has already been pointed out.”



      > I don’t have DJD 17 here at home to check page 186, could you summarize the



      > reasons for thinking the OG’s Vorlage was אל rather than על? It seems to me



      > επι represents על three times as frequently as אל in Samuel. If the Hebrew



      > Vorlage were אל, I would expect the Old Greek to read προς, which is the



      > typical translation of אל.



      >



      > Ken



      >



      >



      > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.



      > Moderator, Dead Sea Scrolls scholars email discussion list:



      > http://mailman.mcmaster.ca/mailman/listinfo/g-megillot



      > St. Francis Xavier University



      > kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner@...<mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca><mailto:kpenner%40stfx.ca>>



      >



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