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3544Re: Amen

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  • TOUJOURSPREST
    Dec 25, 2010
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      Andrew,
      Many thanks for your learned explication. My area of research is Iranian texts, although a main mentor was S D Goitein, a founder of the Hebrew University in 1925.

      I think true monotheism appears in Judaism after Persian captivity.
      Isaiah reveals the influence of Zoroastrianism on Judaism. The monotheism expressed in the New Testament is in turn imbued with the spirit of monotheism in Isaiah, including in Revelation. In Revelation 3 where "the Amen" is used as an epithet for Jesus this is so. Jesus Christ celebrates His faithfulness, in Revelation 3:12-14 (King James Version):

      "12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
      13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
      14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God"

      John is contrasting the heavenly church to the earthly : when one enters the church, the spiritual temple below, three names are recorded in his baptismal formula. When he enters the kingdom above, three names are again written upon him; the name of God, of the heavenly city, and Christ's heavenly name. To be "a pillar of the church" on earth is to have one's name recorded on the wall.

      The new name which Christ will acquire is expressed in other ways by John , as the name of "Jehovah," our righteousness; or the name of "King of kings, and Lord of lords," (Revelation 19:16)
      The "new name" is expressed in a more symbolic way in Revelation 2:17: "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it" The new name is not a new name for the person, but the new name of the giver. The white stone which contains it indicates affirmation, perhaps "the amen" - a black pebble perhaps would be a "no" vote.

      Stephen Van Eck is known for bashing the authenticity of orthodox Christian Bible texts. I agree with his view of the significant influence of Zoroastrian ideas.

      Best holiday wishes,
      Price


      --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, andrew fincke <finckea@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Dear Price,
      > You're really getting into this!
      > "In Isa. 25:1 the word omen ("truth") is used, but it is a hapax (i.e., a word that only occurs once)." is incorrect. We also have "work of the hands of an omen (craftsman)" at Song of Solomon 7:2, describing the calves of the writer's girlfriend. Since things work in 3's in the Bible, that makes the two omen's in Isa 65:16 mean "craftsman": "He blesses himself in (the name of) a God of a craftsman ... He oathes in (the name of ) a God of a craftsman." That fits with the beginning of the verse: "Whoever blesses himself in (the trees of the) land." The image is of a pagan farmer taking great pains to cultivate a grove of trees, which are then cut down and turned into idols. See Isa 44:13-15. The (tall) girlfriend in Song of Solomon 7:2 must have had legs that reminded the author of trees. At Isaiah 25:1 these legs/trees were feminized from עצים "trees" to עצות, which the Septuagint translates "advice" (βουλη). The Isaiah scroll (1QIsa-a) has אצית "I ignite", which verifies 44:15: "They (the trees) are for burning; he warms himself and stokes the fire; he bakes bread and makes an idol". The speaker at the end of 25:1: אצית מרחוק אמונ×" אמן "I ignite from a distance the handiwork of a craftsman" is apparently the Lord, destroying the products of abuse of His creation.
      > For a guy who doesn't know Hebrew, you're pretty smart!
      > Andrew Fincke
      >
      >
      > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      > From: toujoursprest@...
      > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 04:04:18 +0000
      > Subject: [lxx] Re: Amen
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Andrew,
      > Could there be a different Semitic root for "amen" (aleph-meem-nun) when it is used to mean "the Amen" , for Jehovah and Christ?
      > In Is. 65:16 the Hebrew text twice speaks of "the God of (the) Amen." Some thought this difficult to translate and chose to correct the text to "the God of truth." The proposed emendation only concerns the vowels which (in Hebrew) do not belong to the original text. Instead of "ameen"the reading "omen" is suggested. In Isa. 25:1 the word omen ("truth") is used, but it is a hapax (i.e., a word that only occurs once). In the Septuagint and Aquila both read ameen instead of omen at Isa. 25:1. The texts from Isaiah seem to be echoed in Rev.3:14 where "the Amen" is used as a title for Jesus. Perhaps you are pointing to something like this?
      >
      > Price
      >
      > --- In lxx@yahoogroups.com, andrew fincke <finckea@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Good point, David!
      > > And what does the Septuagint (this is a Septuagint list) say at those 4 places?
      > > γένοιτο γένοιτο "So be it! So be it!" I.e. Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"´Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"°Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"¶Ãâ€"” Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"´Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"°Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"¶Ãâ€"”. Now that's just a polite way of saying "Jehovah, Jehovah" (Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"•Ãâ€"” Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"•Ãâ€"”) without descecrating the Lord's name. What's happened is that the Septuagint translator mistook "Amen" (Ãâ€"Ãâ€"žÃâ€"Ÿ) for "So be it!/ therefore" (Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ) by merging the vertical that forms final nun with the open space on the left side of the kaf. Cf. the kaf and mem in Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ Ãâ€"žÃâ€"©Ãâ€"¤Ãâ€"ËÅ"Ãâ€"â„¢ in the facsimile of 1QIsa-a at Isa. 30:4. Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ is a rare word that occurs only in Isaiah, and there only four times, one of which is 53:4, where it serves as epithet for Our Savior at Isa 53:4: "He lifted up our sins". There the Septuagint has "He" (οá½â€"τος) for Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"•Ãâ€" "Therefore He". So at Psalms 106(105):48, when "All the people said, 'Amen! Amen!" (Hebrew: "Amen! Praise the Lord!") they were just reciting the divine epithet. For the matter of the repetive Ãâ€"Ãâ€"žÃâ€"Ÿ Ãâ€"Ãâ€"žÃâ€"Ÿ in the Psalms verses cf. Isa 40:7-8, where Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ caused a whole verse to be duplicated. In IQIsa-a all the extra material is between the lines and into the margin with Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ Ãâ€"â€"Ãâ€"¦Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"¨ Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"¢Ãâ€" "Therefore the people is grass" spelled Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ Ãâ€"â€"Ãâ€"¦Ãâ€"â„¢Ãâ€"¨ Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"¢Ãâ€", confusing Ãâ€"Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ with Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"›Ãâ€"Ÿ and thus Ãâ€"”Ãâ€"§Ãâ€"Ÿ "the nest", which is composed of intertwined grass. I know this is alot of Hebrew for someone unversed in the language, so if you've got some questions feel free to ask.
      > > Andrew Fincke
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      > > From: kpenner@
      > > Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:10:09 -0400
      > > Subject: RE: [lxx] Amen
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > In all the cases mentioned below, the Hebrew word is AMEN.
      > >
      > > Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
      > > Assistant Professor, Religious Studies
      > > St. Francis Xavier University
      > > Antigonish, NS
      > > Canada
      > >
      > > (902)867-2265
      > > kpenner@
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: lxx@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lxx@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David James
      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:47 PM
      > > To: lxx@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: Re: [lxx] Amen
      > >
      > > Price:
      > >
      > > You don't make any reference to the Psalms, and I don't know Hebrew.
      > > However, if, as you assert, "Amen" is never used in the OT to conclude a
      > > prayer, what is the Hebrew word used in the concluding verses of Psalms 40,
      > > 71, 88 and 105 (LXX numbering)?
      > >
      > > David James
      > >
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      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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