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2800RE: [lxx] Re: Question on NETS translation

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  • andrew fincke
    Feb 4, 2008
      So when "An evil breath from God jumped on Saul" (1 Sam 18:10), it was a case of halitosis? I.e. "The (good) breath of God" passed from Saul to David at the latter's anointing (1 Sam 16:13-14), and bad breath made Saul get mad (1 Sam 11:6) and act crazy ("act like a prophet" - 1 Sam 18:10). That fits with Saul's impulsive nature and insensitivity.
      Andrew Fincke

      To: lxx@yahoogroups.comFrom: BillRoss@...: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:41:42 -0600Subject: Re: [lxx] Re: Question on NETS translation

      >>>Wherever "pneuma" occurs, the concept of "breath" may perhaps always (or >>>usually) still be there, but other ideas certainly enter in. For example, >>>Mt: 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit" [en pneumati] clearly is not >>>speaking only of the breath in speaking of those who are poor in it.WH has "TW PNEUMATI" - but either way, it is obscure no matter how you conceive of anything. It may be that he was referring to the gentiles who were "destitute of the breath." Paul refers to "the air of the breath of the evil one that now works in the sons of disobedience" among whom, formerly, were the Ephesians (gentiles). To these, so "destitute of the breath [of God]" would be given the gospel of the kingdom. Again, the key is to recognize that the breath of God is construed as moral (holy), life giving and intelligent. This is ever contrasted with the muscles, or "flesh" which is believed to be the place where sin dwells:Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.>>>>Mark 2:8 ("when Jesus perceived in His spirit [en tw pneumati autou] >>>>that they reasoned thus within themselves") if translated with "breath" >>>>makes no sense at all, unless one thinks of "breath" in a manner >>>>transcending the physical breath -- i.e. moving towards the concepts >>>>traditionally associated with "spirit".Right. The Hebrews were strict materialists. They did not conceive of something immaterial living in a person but rather of the material of the "air of the breath." The thoughts and intents of the person were rooted in the organs of the heart and kidneys respectively. God is conceived of as a very physical being - essentially a man who lives in the sky among his sons that are also essentially men as well.>>>Mark 14:38 "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" clearly >>>identifies "pneuma" with something more akin to "soul" or "mind" and >>>contrasts it with "flesh".What this means, essentially, is "talk is cheap, but the muscles are vulnerable [because of pain].">>>Luke 2:26 "And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he >>>would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ." clearly is >>>speaking of a mental or noetic revelation to Symeon, performed by an >>>Agent clearly transcending the usual concept of "breath" although that >>>idea might still be there.Immediate knowledge comes by the breath of God. Consider how Adam came to be. God sculpted mud into a statue of himself and then breathed from his own mouth into the nostrils of the statue and it became alive and sentient. This is the model of all we see in the rest of the Bible. "The breath gives life." The "life giving breath." "Who knows the things of God but by the breath of God?">>>One could go on, but this has probably been covered far better by >>>existing reference works already. In most of these examples the concept >>>of "breath" may still be there although it may be overtaken by other >>>concepts.Not really. The concept is that of breath, but the breath is construed as having characteristics that we know are fictional in addition to ones that it really does. For example, the body without the breath is dead. This is true. In a sense, "the breath gives life." Also, the "breath gives utterance (the ability to speak)." It is the vehicle of communication. However, in the Bible, there are traits that are not actually properties of the air itself, but are construed so by the Bible. For example, God's breath animated mud and made it self aware. That doesn't happen. Nor does evil power work in people because of the prince of the authority of the air of the breath that "works" in the sons of disobedience. Breath is not really "holy." But this is the thinking in the Bible.>>Certainly the concept of breath has its proper place. It is an essential >>and useful idea when speaking of "pneuma Theou." One of the most useful >>images from the church fathers is the image of the Trinity as consisting >>of a man (a) mind (the Father), (b) speech or reason (the Logos, the Word, >>the Son), and (c) breath, which carries forth the Word (the pneuma, >>Spirit, breath) and how these three are, in a sense, one, because all >>three are found together, act together, and the Word and Spirit (Breath) >>carry forth the expression of the Mind [Father, God].In the Bible, there is but one God, the Father. His word/breath are divine words and breath, of course, and thus carry divine authority, etc, but they are not construed as separate "persons" that are "co-equal in majesty" etc, per the Augustinian formulation.>>>One has to say that in God, for Trinitarian Christians, "pneuma" >>>certainly must transcend the notion of "breath". After all, God is not >>>physcial at all, while "breath" is something physical. "God is spirit" >>>(John 4:24, Pneuma o Theos) and here "pneuma" refers to all 3 hypostases: >>>Father, Son, and Spirit and not the Spirit alone.By saying that God is a breath, I don't understand John to be saying that God is *only* breath, just as he is not *just* a gardener (or that Jesus is just a vine).Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.He is saying that the Samaritan woman is erring by trying to figure out which mountain/altar is the correct one to worship at. He says that Judea is the salvation of the Samaritans - but things are in the process of changing, so that everyone will now approach God by the agency of breath and truth.>>>"Pneuma" very often seems to mean the life of a living thing or person. >>>E.g. Luke 8:55 "Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately. And >>>He commanded that she be given something to eat."The Hebrews believed that upon death, the breath returned to God:Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit [breath] of man that goeth upward, and the spirit [breath] of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?So to be resurrected, the breath must return: In this way, Jesus was made a "life giving breath" upon the resurrection:1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit [life giving breath].Bill Rosshttp://bibleshockers.com

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