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Re: [luf-team] Re: Last Man Standing - Time to Beam Me Up Scotty

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  • Jopnatan Bravo
    Dear Eric, Thank you for your e-mail. It is clear that if humanity is to have any long-term future it must move to space and develop on as many worlds as
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 16, 2008
      Dear Eric,

      Thank you for your e-mail.

      It is clear that if humanity is to have any long-term future it must move to space and develop on as many worlds as possible.

      Our civilization is much too vulnerable on a single planet, particularly without any capability to leave in case a serious danger develops. We now know that the long-term orbits of all the planets and asteroids/planetoids in our solar system are of a chaotic nature... Furthermore, being stranded on Earth with a rapidly increasing population is burning-up all the available key mineral resources and tempering with global climate. We know that during the past 600 000 years, five ice ages of about 100 000 years have successively swept the planet. We are now about 12 000 years in one of the brief inerglacial periods. The five previous interglacials have lasted about that long... before abruply shifting to glaciation. We only have an imprecise understanding of the related flipping mechanism but it would be foolish to assume that noting will ever happen.

      As I was telling Terry, we need time to effect a transition as orderly as possible away from rapidly dwingling hydrocarbons (our current main energy source as a civilization). A proven technology to self-sufficiency in both energy and food would, if mass marketed, contribute to this transition and may to some extent be applicable to space travel and to the colonization of other worlds.

      Although I do not have access to black project information, DARPA type bodies may have been able to provide key technological breakthroughs related to energy production,space propulsion and space colonization. The Pentagone would not likely advertize any such breakthroughs and would seek to gain as much advantage as it could on competing states for obvious geopolitical and economic reasons. I hope that this is the case and that we have already some undeclared bases on the Moon, on Mars and on some of the Lagrange points. If not we are collectively in deep trouble.

      We must however not give up and assemble as much as we can key knowledge and key people and start doing what we can to move forward in the right direction. Developing a working technology to self-sufficiency in both energy and food in the form of some type of off-the-grid house is such a first step. Making the blueprint available to all those interested is a second step. Building-up small communities of people using this technology while assembling people of complementtaty talents is a third.

      Who knows where it could lead? Hopefully to eternity and to the stars.

      JB




      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Eric Hunting <erichunting@...>
      To: luf-team@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 2:20:40 AM
      Subject: [luf-team] Re: Last Man Standing - Time to Beam Me Up Scotty

      I don't mean to sound critical or argumentative, but I don't quite
      understand why anyone who is confident in the very imminent doom of
      the civilization would have much interest in space development to
      begin with given the very rudimentary state of this at present, unless
      one was also anticipating some very imminent and miraculous
      breakthroughs. Given the current technology and the political/economic
      state of all countries currently engaged in any space activity, odds
      are that totally self-sustaining space settlement within 25 years is
      virtually impossible. Though it's likely we could get to the Moon or
      Mars in a few decades, we won't likely do all that much better than
      Apollo did in terms of establishing any permanent habitation there.
      Apollo hasn't left us with much of a head-start because in the decades
      since we've squandered the technological legacy of it. NASA is now
      reverse-engineering Apollo hardware left in museums and junk yards
      because the documentation is either lost or was never complete to
      begin with and all the old engineers are dying off! There's a large
      gap between throwing tin-can outposts into the wilderness and
      establishing an independent infrastructure for a self-sustaining
      branch of civilization. Settlement is a vastly bigger proposition than
      just camping out. Mass mining and refinery, industrial production,
      mass agriculture, large scale construction, these things are barely
      even on the long-term NASA agenda. There isn't one space agency in the
      world that even has a functional design for a Lunar/Mars roadheader on
      paper. No one has even built so much as a partial working mock-up or
      drawn a complete design for a realistic permanent orbital, Lunar, or
      Mars habitat. We have no suggested models for how to live out there.
      All we have is concept sketches -half 30 years old. Avant-guard
      architects with little science background have done more in this area
      than anyone in the aerospace community. As I've said, without nanotech
      and AI tomorrow, there aren't going to be any shortcuts. Black project
      wonders are fairy tales. They squander 80-90% of their budgets just on
      maintaining the secrecy of follies that are only secret because they'd
      be a national embarrassment otherwise. At that rate, the entire GNP of
      the industrialized nations combined couldn't put the Bush family on
      Mars in 25 years.

      Given this, wouldn't it make more sense to try and work toward buying
      more time by any means possible? Or barring that, why not just go to
      Tahiti and party like it's 1999? Nothing wrong or illogical with that
      choice if one is certain everything else is just as futile. Maybe the
      slow concerted effort of building a new infrastructure is futile, but
      it's the only realistic option we've got, and the best hope of buying
      more time and finding an unexpected shortcut. I'd rather go out like a
      proper homo sapiens. Better to die with a hammer in your hand than a
      cross.

      Eric Hunting
      erichunting@ wildblue. net

      On Feb 14, 2008, at 10:18 AM, luf-team@yahoogroup s.com wrote:

      > Last Man Standing - Time to Beam Me Up Scotty

      > Posted by: "Jopnatan Bravo" jonatan252000@ yahoo.com
      > jonatan252000Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:16 am (PST)
      > Dear Eric,
      >
      > Thank you for your interesting thoughts.
      >
      > We may however collectively be heading for the wall in terms of
      > cheap energy availability. Peak oil and for that matter peak
      > hydrocarbons is much nearer that one would think, probably less than
      > 50 years even in the case of economically available coal.
      >
      > Hydrocarbons providing a high net energy output (i.e. energy
      > delivered minus the energy needed to find it and pump it/dig it out)
      > have been the foundation on which the industrial revolution has
      > taken place. It also enabled high intensity agriculture to develop,
      > which is the basis on which we have been able to feed 7 billion
      > people, up to now. However, without "cheap high net energy
      > intensity" hydrocarbons we are collectively standing on very thin
      > air...
      >
      > In fact, by building-up so fast - both in terms of numbers and
      > gizmos - without providing an equivalent alternative cheap net high
      > energy source to replace hydrocarbons, we have collectively been
      > sawing the high branch on which we are presently standing on the
      > evolutionary tree and are about to start freefalling like Willy the
      > coyote in a "beep beep" cartoon.
      >
      > 50 years (at best) is not a long time from a historical perspective.
      >
      > As we speak - after more than 50 years of research - we do not even
      > have commercial thermonuclear fusion reactors, where the energy
      > source would be unlimited. At the current rate of development, we
      > may not have the first one in 50 years... Present commercial fission
      > reactors rely on uranium and the very limited world supply of
      > unranium is nowhere near enough to compensate for the rapidly
      > dwindling reserves of cheap high net energy intensity hydrocarbons.
      >
      > La "mode du jour" is with renewable energy sources such as
      > photovoltaic solar cells, wind energy, geothermal energy and even
      > wave energy. However these energy sources (including LATOC),
      > although technologically available, are nowhere near the cheap high
      > net energy hydrocarbons that our society is currently addicted to.
      >
      > Most people do not realize that from an economic perspective, our
      > high energy intensity standard of living is globally set to take the
      > plunge. In fact the situation is so bad that there may not be enough
      > energy left to enable 7 billion people to continue living. Food
      > production is falling as a growing part of crops in many countries
      > is now beeing desperately used for ethanol and biodiesel production
      > to compensation for the dwindling supply of oil. Covert resources
      > war have already erupted for the control of the remaining strategic
      > resources of the planet. People who think that the second Gulf war
      > was not about oil are already living on another planet...
      >
      > The Millenium Project has not been implemented as an official
      > collective way forward for humanity. It is a brilliant vision of the
      > future and it should have been endorsed collectively by our leaders
      > because it represents a message of hope for all and an assurance of
      > continuity of the species for the long term. Instead the idea was
      > simply blown away by short-term petty politics. The luf-team still
      > attempts to keep the flame alive. It would however have been good if
      > the official creator of the Millenium Project was still around
      > strongly promoting his vision, in light of the latest technological
      > decvelopments and of the now rapidly unfolding events.
      >
      > It is possible that a calculation by "higher-up authorities" may
      > have been made that the Millenium Project was not a realistic
      > alternative, for all... May be a small group will be provided with
      > enough high-tech "black project gizmos" to make it to another world
      > and to ensure the continuity of the species (somewhat like "When
      > Worlds Collide" but a bit more sophisticated. ..) .
      >
      > I hope so because for those remaining on good old Earth are probably
      > in for the "last man standing scenario".
      >
      > JB





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
      http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Terry Kok
      There is a some basic info on the ecoark (needs updating) at http://www.faeriehillfarm.com and a tremendous amount of info posted in the message archives at
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 17, 2008
        There is a some basic info on the ecoark (needs updating) at
        http://www.faeriehillfarm.com and a tremendous amount of info posted
        in the message archives at our sustainable systems and communities
        think tank at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/andorprojex (see the posts
        in Oct. 07) - T

        --- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, Jopnatan Bravo <jonatan252000@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Terry,
        >
        > Thank you for your e-mail.
        >
        > Developing operational self-sustaining off-the-grid residences is
        certainly a positive way forward. I would be very much interested in
        seeing a reference document describing the system that you have
        developed and about the experience gathered in using it.
        >
        > Mass-marketing this type of residence to build-up communities of
        individuals sharing a minimum common understanding and vision while
        being complementaty in skills and talents might be the next step to
        try to save what can be saved.
        >
        > Humanity needs some time to effect a transition that is as orderly
        as possible towards new energy sources, away as fast as we can from
        rapidly dwindling hydrocarbons. This additional time may be enough to
        prompt a serious space development effort and, if we are lucky, gives
        us a few key techological breakthrough.
        >
        > Sincerely.
        >
        > JB
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: Terry Kok <biostar_a@...>
        > To: luf-team@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 1:51:29 AM
        > Subject: [luf-team] Re: Last Man Standing - Time to Beam Me Up Scotty
        >
        > JB - First of all I have to say that I agree with your assessment of
        > the state of the planet and what may very well come to pass as folks
        > run out of fuel, food, clean water, and fresh air. The appeal of
        > Marshall's book, to me, was the union of technological and ecological
        > principles as expressed in closed systems = CELSS (Closed/Controlled
        > Ecological Life Support Systems). CELSS is a specialty interest for
        > me, not just in theory. I've built two CELSS-tech testbeds, living in
        > the first with my family for 5 years then building the current one
        > which my wife and have lived in for about 1.5 years now. What I've
        > been testing is HOW to practically recycle everything including stale
        > air, dirty water, and organic waste, producing clean water, fresh air,
        > and and organic food supply in the process. Yes, I've presented papers
        > and done countless presentations on the topic. I've studied every
        > similar project in detail. It's very do-able but, like all good
        > things, it's not funded. When BushCo ascended to the imperial throne,
        > the first project which was cut in NASA was the closed-system research
        > in Houston called Bio-Plex. "Jesus is coming so we don't need no
        > stinkin' life support" (I hear him thinking). Never-the-less, I have
        > plodded ahead on my own and have made great progress in perfecting
        > this crucial ecotech. Personally speaking, I like living in an
        > off-grid stand-alone fashion. In the bigger picture, if CELSS was
        > mass-manufactured there is no reason why everyone on this planet
        > couldn't have the life support they need. But, to get it
        > mass-manufactured, it takes a TEAM. I cannot do this on my own because
        > there are too many bases to cover. - Terry
        >
        > --- In luf-team@yahoogroup s.com, Jopnatan Bravo <jonatan252000@
        ...> wrote:
        > >
        > > The key point is, the present generation of humans may shortly
        > witness a massive extinction event because it no longer has the energy
        > and food supply available to sustain current population levels. There
        > are already a few billion people on a very tight diet... Have you
        > been to India and seen how most of the population lives and eats? Have
        > you been to Africa, to Indonesia, even China and seen people struggle
        > on a daly basis to find something to eat and drink that is simply
        > commestible?
        > >
        > > If we had started to collectively move after the second oil shock in
        > 1980, we might have been able to effect some orderly transition. I
        > fear that now is too late. We have blown 30 crutial years. In doing
        > so, we may have blown "civilization" althogether.
        > >
        > > Humanity may die in its "craddle" here on Earth. A failed
        > "civilization" ... If only it had ben able to get an insurance policy
        > on a few other planets in the solar system, it might have eventually
        > made it to the stars.
        > >
        > > They say that if you keep talking it keeps your mind away from fear
        > as death approaches.. . Is that what the luf-team is doing?
        > >
        > > JB
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
        > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
        http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Jopnatan Bravo
        Dear Terry, Thank you for your e-mail. I have joined the andor projex discussion group and see if there is usable info that can be exchanged there. Have you
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 18, 2008
          Dear Terry,

          Thank you for your e-mail. I have joined the andor projex discussion group and see if there is usable info that can be exchanged there.

          Have you completed your own project and gathered expertise with your off-grid house?

          JB


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Terry Kok <biostar_a@...>
          To: luf-team@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 1:02:55 AM
          Subject: [luf-team] Re: Last Man Standing - Time to Beam Me Up Scotty

          There is a some basic info on the ecoark (needs updating) at
          http://www.faeriehi llfarm.com and a tremendous amount of info posted
          in the message archives at our sustainable systems and communities
          think tank at http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/andorproje x (see the posts
          in Oct. 07) - T

          --- In luf-team@yahoogroup s.com, Jopnatan Bravo <jonatan252000@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Terry,
          >
          > Thank you for your e-mail.
          >
          > Developing operational self-sustaining off-the-grid residences is
          certainly a positive way forward. I would be very much interested in
          seeing a reference document describing the system that you have
          developed and about the experience gathered in using it.
          >
          > Mass-marketing this type of residence to build-up communities of
          individuals sharing a minimum common understanding and vision while
          being complementaty in skills and talents might be the next step to
          try to save what can be saved.
          >
          > Humanity needs some time to effect a transition that is as orderly
          as possible towards new energy sources, away as fast as we can from
          rapidly dwindling hydrocarbons. This additional time may be enough to
          prompt a serious space development effort and, if we are lucky, gives
          us a few key techological breakthrough.
          >
          > Sincerely.
          >
          > JB
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: Terry Kok <biostar_a@. ..>
          > To: luf-team@yahoogroup s.com
          > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 1:51:29 AM
          > Subject: [luf-team] Re: Last Man Standing - Time to Beam Me Up Scotty
          >
          > JB - First of all I have to say that I agree with your assessment of
          > the state of the planet and what may very well come to pass as folks
          > run out of fuel, food, clean water, and fresh air. The appeal of
          > Marshall's book, to me, was the union of technological and ecological
          > principles as expressed in closed systems = CELSS (Closed/Controlled
          > Ecological Life Support Systems). CELSS is a specialty interest for
          > me, not just in theory. I've built two CELSS-tech testbeds, living in
          > the first with my family for 5 years then building the current one
          > which my wife and have lived in for about 1.5 years now. What I've
          > been testing is HOW to practically recycle everything including stale
          > air, dirty water, and organic waste, producing clean water, fresh air,
          > and and organic food supply in the process. Yes, I've presented papers
          > and done countless presentations on the topic. I've studied every
          > similar project in detail. It's very do-able but, like all good
          > things, it's not funded. When BushCo ascended to the imperial throne,
          > the first project which was cut in NASA was the closed-system research
          > in Houston called Bio-Plex. "Jesus is coming so we don't need no
          > stinkin' life support" (I hear him thinking). Never-the-less, I have
          > plodded ahead on my own and have made great progress in perfecting
          > this crucial ecotech. Personally speaking, I like living in an
          > off-grid stand-alone fashion. In the bigger picture, if CELSS was
          > mass-manufactured there is no reason why everyone on this planet
          > couldn't have the life support they need. But, to get it
          > mass-manufactured, it takes a TEAM. I cannot do this on my own because
          > there are too many bases to cover. - Terry
          >
          > --- In luf-team@yahoogroup s.com, Jopnatan Bravo <jonatan252000@
          ...> wrote:
          > >
          > > The key point is, the present generation of humans may shortly
          > witness a massive extinction event because it no longer has the energy
          > and food supply available to sustain current population levels. There
          > are already a few billion people on a very tight diet... Have you
          > been to India and seen how most of the population lives and eats? Have
          > you been to Africa, to Indonesia, even China and seen people struggle
          > on a daly basis to find something to eat and drink that is simply
          > commestible?
          > >
          > > If we had started to collectively move after the second oil shock in
          > 1980, we might have been able to effect some orderly transition. I
          > fear that now is too late. We have blown 30 crutial years. In doing
          > so, we may have blown "civilization" althogether.
          > >
          > > Humanity may die in its "craddle" here on Earth. A failed
          > "civilization" ... If only it had ben able to get an insurance policy
          > on a few other planets in the solar system, it might have eventually
          > made it to the stars.
          > >
          > > They say that if you keep talking it keeps your mind away from fear
          > as death approaches.. . Is that what the luf-team is doing?
          > >
          > > JB
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
          > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
          http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
          http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Terry Kok
          Nothing s is ever complete for this wizard - lol ... I m always tweeking, making improvements based on what I m learning. My wife and I have been living here
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 19, 2008
            Nothing's is ever complete for this wizard - lol ... I'm always
            tweeking, making improvements based on what I'm learning. My wife and
            I have been living here full time since Sept.06 ... This is my second
            experiment/home with CELSS-tech (water & waste recycling via
            plantbeds) as well as solarPV/wind electrics and solar thermal
            heating. Yes, I've gained an incredible amount of first-hand knowledge
            doing this. I have much more to learn. The solar/wind part is easy.
            The 100% water recycling is the hardest part, especially during the
            winter when the greenhouse temps drop and we have plant die-off of
            many species. I'm finding out which species survive. We also lose
            about 1/4 of our water to plant transpiration and plantbed surface
            evaporation. In a better (hermetically) sealed system, such as
            required in space or on a less hospitalble planet, we would simply
            recover that water via dehumidification. The ecoark is not totally
            sealed (we have windows which we open to catch the breeze). - T

            --- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, Jopnatan Bravo <jonatan252000@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Terry,
            >
            > Thank you for your e-mail. I have joined the andor projex discussion
            group and see if there is usable info that can be exchanged there.
            >
            > Have you completed your own project and gathered expertise with your
            off-grid house?
            >
            > JB
            >
          • code suidae
            ... Thanks for sending these links. I haven t been paying much attention to fusion research for a while and I ve completely missed hearing about these
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 27, 2008
              On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 2:18 AM, ben lipkowitz <fenn@...> wrote:
              > > Posted by: "Jopnatan Bravo" jonatan252000@... jonatan252000
              > > Date: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:16 am ((PST))
              > >
              > > As we speak - after more than 50 years of research - we do not even have
              > > commercial thermonuclear fusion reactors,
              >
              > Fusion research has been hampered by political pork interests - there's a
              > lot of money going into LLNL/ITER and that money commands votes! So
              > nobody's going to risk their job by diverting government funds to
              > something that might actually work, such as, for example:
              >
              > http://focusfusion.org/
              > http://www.emc2fusion.org/
              > http://www.lanl.gov/p/rh_pp_park.shtml

              Thanks for sending these links. I haven't been paying much attention
              to fusion research for a while and I've completely missed hearing
              about these projects.

              The Google video talks in particular were extremely informative:

              http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1518007279479871760
              http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606

              It's good to see that EMC2 is funded again, but I really hope the
              Focus Fusion guys can get some funding too, their approach is really
              fascinating.

              CS
              --
              "Our ignorance is not so vast as our failure to use what we know." -
              M. King Hubbert
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