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Re: Fwd: The Aeon Project

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  • johnshuman2000
    Who and what is The Aeon Project ? Is there a website? I was not able to find one searching for it. Please give a link to a website or cite some literature
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 1, 2007
      Who and what is "The Aeon Project"? Is there a website? I was not
      able to find one searching for it. Please give a link to a website or
      cite some literature so I can learn more.
    • Eric Hunting
      I m not sure I comprehended very much of this line of reasoning -and usually my skills at deduction are pretty good. We went to war with Iraq because Saddam
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 3, 2007
        I'm not sure I comprehended very much of this line of reasoning -and
        usually my skills at deduction are pretty good. We went to war with
        Iraq because Saddam Hussein wasn't a sufficiently conservative
        muslim? Strong religious conviction, regardless of particular
        discipline, is a shield against political aggression? Building eco-
        villages or co-housing communities makes you a target because they're
        considered a mortal threat to the economic establishment? The lunatic
        Pilgrims who couldn't hack it in rich progressive Holland after
        fleeing England, were crazy enough to think life in the savage
        wilderness of the New World would be 'easier', whose own hired
        sailing crew sabotaged one of their ships when they realized these
        religious kooks were leading them to their deaths, and whose colony
        survived by dumb luck in spite of being doomed from the start by
        their own incompetence (half of them died in the first few months in
        the New World) is a model for statecraft? And who are these dangerous
        social outcasts the LUF is supposedly creating a safe-haven for?
        Middle-class technical professionals and midnight engineers? The
        small Eco-Tech faction of environmentalists? SciFi fans and space
        buffs? Nerds?

        I don't mean to be flippant, but I just don't get any of this. We
        aren't quite yet in a world where towns get surrounded by tanks if
        they don't have a church steeple (even if it often seems we're
        heading in that direction in the US). there's isn't some rule that
        every community in the world has to publicly declare a state religion
        or be summarily carpet-bombed, and there are thousands of co-housing
        communities, eco-villages, themed or planned gated communities, and
        so on all over the world that obviously aren't getting the Waco
        Treatment. Yes, there is a white protestant/catholic religious
        hegemony in the western world. But it's also the nature of a
        religious hegemony that it assumes everyone is on-board by default or
        otherwise no threat if they aren't competitively marketing or overtly
        displaying their 'foreign' beliefs -which is why I caution against
        things that might be misconstrued as this. Certainly, at some point
        in the future the communities of TMP may be large, numerous, and
        autonomous enough that they become seen by some as economic or even
        political competitors. And at that point these communities many need
        to consider strategic political alliances and tactical diplomacy as a
        means to their security. But every corporation, nation, culture, and
        religion in the world is considered a competitor by someone and we
        aren't now in some state of total war because of that.

        Eric Hunting

        hunting@...


        On Sep 1, 2007, at 1:16 AM, luf-team@yahoogroups.com wrote:

        > 1a. Re: Fwd: The Aeon Project
        > Posted by: "William Starin" lupso@... bisbotba
        > Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:30 pm ((PDT))
        >
        > The problem with putting religion on the back burner is that its
        > pot is
        > still going to boil. If the cooks are not religious, the dishwasher
        > will
        > stir the pot. Iraq was a secular state. It had alcohol, rock music,
        > books on
        > any topic in English, women political leaders, religious
        > toleration, curb
        > and gutters, universities, and gas for $0.10 a gallon at the pump.
        > First the
        > Iranian leadership accused the leader of Iraq of being Godless.
        > War. Then
        > the USA accused the leader of Iraq of being GODLESS. War. Leader gets
        > hanged. Now no open sales of alcohol, no rock music, books in one
        > language,
        > women in scarfs, religious strife, curb and gutters used to hide
        > bombs,
        > students afraid to attend school, and gas lines. Without a solid
        > spiritual
        > base no community is safe. Believe it or not, the capitalist
        > consumerist
        > ideology is religiously based. Tamper with it and you are tampering
        > with a
        > sacred cow. An evil person is someone who does not support the
        > system. Evil
        > has lately come to mean sinner, but originally it meant opponent.
        > LUF in
        > trying to help those not part of the establishment find a better
        > life is by
        > definition evil. All it needs to attract the authorities is a
        > group of
        > people building a habitat - nothing more. Remember, before the
        > pilgrims
        > landed they held off shore until everyone signed a statement
        > agreeing to
        > support the new colony's government. They had Miles Standish as
        > military
        > commander, and they had a well thought out religious agenda. Some
        > serious
        > study needs to be done on statecraft, security and religion.
      • Robert Reed
        ... It s been uploaded.
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 3, 2007
          --- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, "johnshuman2000" <johnshuman2000@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Who and what is "The Aeon Project"? Is there a website? I was not
          > able to find one searching for it. Please give a link to a website or
          > cite some literature so I can learn more.
          >
          It's been uploaded.
        • Robert Reed
          I would have to agree with Eric on this. IMO, the organization should remain secular. Once we have an ocean or space settlement up and running, it won t be
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 3, 2007
            I would have to agree with Eric on this.

            IMO, the organization should remain secular. Once we have an ocean or
            space settlement up and running, it won't be our task to decide for
            them what spiritual or religious memes to support. Just as John S.
            Lewis stated, our task is not to decide what cultural, spiritual, and
            religious memes the settlers should use. Our task is to create a
            future in which the settlers themselves have the options to choose
            their own way.

            Because the plan is to build many, many settlements, it is expected
            that they will be centers for cultural experimentation. And it is
            these cultural experiments on Aquarius, or on the Moon or an asteroid,
            that will be the decisive factor. And do you think that those living
            on those new settlements will care what "old worlders" think (or at
            least thought before they emigrated to the settlements)? I think not.

            --- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, Eric Hunting <hunting@...> wrote:
            >
            > I'm not sure I comprehended very much of this line of reasoning -and
            > usually my skills at deduction are pretty good. We went to war with
            > Iraq because Saddam Hussein wasn't a sufficiently conservative
            > muslim? Strong religious conviction, regardless of particular
            > discipline, is a shield against political aggression? Building eco-
            > villages or co-housing communities makes you a target because they're
            > considered a mortal threat to the economic establishment? The lunatic
            > Pilgrims who couldn't hack it in rich progressive Holland after
            > fleeing England, were crazy enough to think life in the savage
            > wilderness of the New World would be 'easier', whose own hired
            > sailing crew sabotaged one of their ships when they realized these
            > religious kooks were leading them to their deaths, and whose colony
            > survived by dumb luck in spite of being doomed from the start by
            > their own incompetence (half of them died in the first few months in
            > the New World) is a model for statecraft? And who are these dangerous
            > social outcasts the LUF is supposedly creating a safe-haven for?
            > Middle-class technical professionals and midnight engineers? The
            > small Eco-Tech faction of environmentalists? SciFi fans and space
            > buffs? Nerds?
            >
            > I don't mean to be flippant, but I just don't get any of this. We
            > aren't quite yet in a world where towns get surrounded by tanks if
            > they don't have a church steeple (even if it often seems we're
            > heading in that direction in the US). there's isn't some rule that
            > every community in the world has to publicly declare a state religion
            > or be summarily carpet-bombed, and there are thousands of co-housing
            > communities, eco-villages, themed or planned gated communities, and
            > so on all over the world that obviously aren't getting the Waco
            > Treatment. Yes, there is a white protestant/catholic religious
            > hegemony in the western world. But it's also the nature of a
            > religious hegemony that it assumes everyone is on-board by default or
            > otherwise no threat if they aren't competitively marketing or overtly
            > displaying their 'foreign' beliefs -which is why I caution against
            > things that might be misconstrued as this. Certainly, at some point
            > in the future the communities of TMP may be large, numerous, and
            > autonomous enough that they become seen by some as economic or even
            > political competitors. And at that point these communities many need
            > to consider strategic political alliances and tactical diplomacy as a
            > means to their security. But every corporation, nation, culture, and
            > religion in the world is considered a competitor by someone and we
            > aren't now in some state of total war because of that.
            >
            > Eric Hunting
            >
            > hunting@...
            >
            >
            > On Sep 1, 2007, at 1:16 AM, luf-team@yahoogroups.com wrote:
            >
            > > 1a. Re: Fwd: The Aeon Project
            > > Posted by: "William Starin" lupso@... bisbotba
            > > Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:30 pm ((PDT))
            > >
            > > The problem with putting religion on the back burner is that its
            > > pot is
            > > still going to boil. If the cooks are not religious, the dishwasher
            > > will
            > > stir the pot. Iraq was a secular state. It had alcohol, rock music,
            > > books on
            > > any topic in English, women political leaders, religious
            > > toleration, curb
            > > and gutters, universities, and gas for $0.10 a gallon at the pump.
            > > First the
            > > Iranian leadership accused the leader of Iraq of being Godless.
            > > War. Then
            > > the USA accused the leader of Iraq of being GODLESS. War. Leader gets
            > > hanged. Now no open sales of alcohol, no rock music, books in one
            > > language,
            > > women in scarfs, religious strife, curb and gutters used to hide
            > > bombs,
            > > students afraid to attend school, and gas lines. Without a solid
            > > spiritual
            > > base no community is safe. Believe it or not, the capitalist
            > > consumerist
            > > ideology is religiously based. Tamper with it and you are tampering
            > > with a
            > > sacred cow. An evil person is someone who does not support the
            > > system. Evil
            > > has lately come to mean sinner, but originally it meant opponent.
            > > LUF in
            > > trying to help those not part of the establishment find a better
            > > life is by
            > > definition evil. All it needs to attract the authorities is a
            > > group of
            > > people building a habitat - nothing more. Remember, before the
            > > pilgrims
            > > landed they held off shore until everyone signed a statement
            > > agreeing to
            > > support the new colony's government. They had Miles Standish as
            > > military
            > > commander, and they had a well thought out religious agenda. Some
            > > serious
            > > study needs to be done on statecraft, security and religion.
            >
          • Jonas Ek
            There is a website. www.aeonproject.org, but it is not very active. The document was written over a year ago and the project is mostly on hold at the moment. I
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 4, 2007
              There is a website. www.aeonproject.org, but it is not very active.
              The document was written over a year ago and the project is mostly on
              hold at the moment. I am the author.

              Jonas / Infinitus

              --- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, "johnshuman2000" <johnshuman2000@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Who and what is "The Aeon Project"? Is there a website? I was not
              > able to find one searching for it. Please give a link to a website or
              > cite some literature so I can learn more.
              >
            • William Starin
              Originally I was replying to the 8/30/2007 letter by Jonas Ek so I have tacked it on this message. The first point he raised was: I see where the red flags
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 16, 2007
                Originally I was replying to the 8/30/2007 letter by Jonas Ek so I have
                tacked it on this message. The first point he raised was: "I see where the
                red flags come up - and I agree that religion as part
                of these types of initiatives should be limited to the idea of
                religious and spiritual freedom, and not actually incorporated into
                the plans themselves, as that is indeed a prime weapon for disarming
                community-building groups with other visions than the capitalist
                consumerist one." To which I wrote: "The problem with putting religion on
                the back burner is that its pot is still going to boil. If the cooks are not
                religious, the dishwasher
                will stir the pot." Here is a quote from Answers to Questions by Frederic J.
                Haskin C 1926.



                Question: In the anthracite strike of 1902 Baer, the leader of the
                operators, was known as Divine Rights Baer. Can you tell me what it was he
                said that led to his being given that name?



                Answer: George F. Baer was known as Divine Rights Baer because of a
                statement in which he said: "The rights and interests of the laboring man
                will be protected and cared for-not by the labor agitators, but by the
                Christian men to whom God in his infinite wisdom has given the control of
                the property interests of the country."



                The capitalist consumerist model is intimately tied to this type Divine
                Rights thinking. No hippie commune is going to last long with god fearing
                men with property holdings and access to the leaders of the police or
                military. For example would you be surprised to learn that members of a Iran
                study group which lobbies for the invasion of Iran are oil men? These kinds
                of groups exist, big and small, all over the country to pick off money
                making opportunities. Most involve real estate. These are the cooks. Below
                them are the dishwashers: These are the groups knocking on your door. In the
                field of systems theory there is a concept called: EMERGENCE- "The
                appearance of novel characteristics exhibited on the level of the whole
                ensemble, but not by the components in isolation." This means religiously
                that if you take the belief set of a certain denomination, certain
                unexpected social environments will appear. For example, if the religion
                demands human sacrifice of enemy warriors, continual warfare is sure to
                follow. If the religion demands no work on holy days then the members are
                sure to live in cities in walking distance from the temple, but if you can
                work any day of the week then the place of worship can be centrally placed
                at a site a hard mornings ride from home. Such a church would have a coral
                and a watering trough and the members would be far different from those who
                walk to church or those who are dragging enemies to the altar.



                Building an organization without a religious plan is like the clueless guy
                who was building bird houses for sale. In my presence someone asked him what
                kind of birds are your houses for? To this the bird house builder replied,
                "Any kind that show up!"



                The purpose of The Millennial Project was to get people into space. Suppose
                you got some religious group installed in a garden project who took Jude 1:6
                and similar verses to heart: "And the angles which kept not their first
                estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting
                chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Suppose the
                members decided that this meant man should not be in space, and decided to
                sabotage all efforts toward moving off planet? Sound far fetched? I remember
                Billy Graham warning that God did not want us to leave Earth. "I don't have
                a quote for this, but remember it from the 1960s." It is from the stem cell
                research level of Biblical interpretation.



                Russia has done work on the emergent characteristics of various religious
                groups: Some groups are Trojan Horses for spies, some are destructive of
                family life, some are just plain trash. No founding religion is an
                invitation to any religion, and it not likely the one that sprouts will
                support any projects we are interested in. Traditionally, religions have
                always been opposed to what is happening where they spring up.



                "And who are these dangerous
                social outcasts the LUF is supposedly creating a safe-haven for?
                Middle-class technical professionals and midnight engineers?" Property
                owners consider techs as wage slaves. When I was in high school our
                psychology teacher, Mr. Berg, told us, after we had been given an IQ test,
                that the businessmen in the community preferred workers that were useful but
                not too bright. Then he added that nobody in class had a higher IQ than he
                did. Henry Ford once said, "If I want to know something about History, I
                will hire a Historian to tell me." Middle-class technical professionals and
                midnight engineers are classed from the executive suite with those who slop
                the pigs. Once I was in a meeting where the CEO, who had inherited the
                company, made a remark about a certain middle manager and his importance.
                The whole room chilled. Nobody upstairs cares about the laboring man i.e.
                "Middle-class technical professionals and midnight engineers" included.



                I agree that evaluating religions openly would create a fire-storm, but a
                careful examination of the various side effects of various combinations of
                religious doctrines is as useful as studying the side effects of various
                medications. If a sure cure for warts causes blindness, people who kiss
                toads should know.



                Church steeples do not forestall invasions. Sticking your head in the ground
                certainly invites them. Whether or not it is in the public business plan,
                somebody has to do some hard thinking about religion. Here is a challenge
                for systems theorists: What set of religious doctrines would synergise with
                a strong middle class, technical education, continuing innovation and
                invention, leveling of incomes, resource management instead of resource
                exploitation, free movement of people and ideas and money, and space
                exploration.









                8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

                I see where the red flags come up - and I agree that religion as part
                of these types of initiatives should be limited to the idea of
                religious and spiritual freedom, and not actually incorporated into
                the plans themselves, as that is indeed a prime weapon for disarming
                community-building groups with other visions than the capitalist
                consumerist one. I am very impressed with the technical know-how and
                strategic thinking seen in this project and in TMP 2.0, an advanced
                level of scenario-writing that I can only hope to aspire to myself.

                The pseudo-science bit of my own ideas is indeed seen as such at this
                point in time, but you might agree that so are some of the advanced
                designs in TMP, things as AI Virtual Habitats or Solar-encircling
                colonies. My own "visionary package" about Qi, Current or Bio-Energy
                is only an attempt to bring that idea into serious research, and to
                broaden the view of western scientific method which is many times
                quite narrow and hostile to other ways of thinking, if not outright
                eurocentric and xenophobic. Aeon includes the idea of being open to
                non-traditional or non-western ways of thinking, and not being locked
                down by what are seen as "absolute truths" in current western
                scientific thought. Ideas of bioelectric energy has been part of
                eastern medicin and science for ages, and have recently started to be
                applied in the west as well. But it is, as I said, merely a matter of
                personal interest.

                It think it would be a mistake to ignore religion altogether as a
                factor in human development, as about 95% of the worlds population
                actually do believe in some kind of higher power or other. But on the
                bottom line I totally agree that religion has no place as a
                foundation for community- or civilization-building, only as a free
                expression of devotion from individuals or voluntary groups within
                such communities or networks of communities. I am very allergic to
                both UFO-isms and New Age world-savers and salvation-sellers.

                What I'm really interested in is the potential for changing the basic
                values on which the current western civilization is built, from
                individualistic, exaaustive and consumerist ones to solidaric,
                voluntary cooperative and ecological ones. In this I see TMP and LUF
                as potential actors, even though I am not very interested in
                colonizing space myself. I think the Earth can fit us all without any
                major problems if we only adapt to the conditions here. population
                will probably stabalize around 9 billion or so, a figure easily
                supportable by the planet under the right circumstances - although
                colonization of space may begin later by the pure interest of
                expansion and idea of filling the universe with life.

                Please also check out the Great Transition Initiative, which I am
                part of and which works with just that potential for value-changing
                and transforming civilization intto a sustainable and more reasonable
                one, with place for more ways of living and more freedom of
                expression and cultural variation. http://www.gtinitiative.org GTI
                even hints at the potential of space-colonization, but only as a
                potential scenario beyond the immmediate issue of creating a
                sustainable mainstream world civilization.

                Peace,




                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Eric Hunting" <hunting@...>
                To: <luf-team@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 11:24 AM
                Subject: [luf-team] Re: Fwd: The Aeon Project


                > I'm not sure I comprehended very much of this line of reasoning -and
                > usually my skills at deduction are pretty good. We went to war with
                > Iraq because Saddam Hussein wasn't a sufficiently conservative
                > muslim? Strong religious conviction, regardless of particular
                > discipline, is a shield against political aggression? Building eco-
                > villages or co-housing communities makes you a target because they're
                > considered a mortal threat to the economic establishment? The lunatic
                > Pilgrims who couldn't hack it in rich progressive Holland after
                > fleeing England, were crazy enough to think life in the savage
                > wilderness of the New World would be 'easier', whose own hired
                > sailing crew sabotaged one of their ships when they realized these
                > religious kooks were leading them to their deaths, and whose colony
                > survived by dumb luck in spite of being doomed from the start by
                > their own incompetence (half of them died in the first few months in
                > the New World) is a model for statecraft? And who are these dangerous
                > social outcasts the LUF is supposedly creating a safe-haven for?
                > Middle-class technical professionals and midnight engineers? The
                > small Eco-Tech faction of environmentalists? SciFi fans and space
                > buffs? Nerds?
                >
                > I don't mean to be flippant, but I just don't get any of this. We
                > aren't quite yet in a world where towns get surrounded by tanks if
                > they don't have a church steeple (even if it often seems we're
                > heading in that direction in the US). there's isn't some rule that
                > every community in the world has to publicly declare a state religion
                > or be summarily carpet-bombed, and there are thousands of co-housing
                > communities, eco-villages, themed or planned gated communities, and
                > so on all over the world that obviously aren't getting the Waco
                > Treatment. Yes, there is a white protestant/catholic religious
                > hegemony in the western world. But it's also the nature of a
                > religious hegemony that it assumes everyone is on-board by default or
                > otherwise no threat if they aren't competitively marketing or overtly
                > displaying their 'foreign' beliefs -which is why I caution against
                > things that might be misconstrued as this. Certainly, at some point
                > in the future the communities of TMP may be large, numerous, and
                > autonomous enough that they become seen by some as economic or even
                > political competitors. And at that point these communities many need
                > to consider strategic political alliances and tactical diplomacy as a
                > means to their security. But every corporation, nation, culture, and
                > religion in the world is considered a competitor by someone and we
                > aren't now in some state of total war because of that.
                >
                > Eric Hunting
                >
                > hunting@...
                >
                >
                > On Sep 1, 2007, at 1:16 AM, luf-team@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                >
                >> 1a. Re: Fwd: The Aeon Project
                >> Posted by: "William Starin" lupso@... bisbotba
                >> Date: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:30 pm ((PDT))
                >>
                >> The problem with putting religion on the back burner is that its
                >> pot is
                >> still going to boil. If the cooks are not religious, the dishwasher
                >> will
                >> stir the pot. Iraq was a secular state. It had alcohol, rock music,
                >> books on
                >> any topic in English, women political leaders, religious
                >> toleration, curb
                >> and gutters, universities, and gas for $0.10 a gallon at the pump.
                >> First the
                >> Iranian leadership accused the leader of Iraq of being Godless.
                >> War. Then
                >> the USA accused the leader of Iraq of being GODLESS. War. Leader gets
                >> hanged. Now no open sales of alcohol, no rock music, books in one
                >> language,
                >> women in scarfs, religious strife, curb and gutters used to hide
                >> bombs,
                >> students afraid to attend school, and gas lines. Without a solid
                >> spiritual
                >> base no community is safe. Believe it or not, the capitalist
                >> consumerist
                >> ideology is religiously based. Tamper with it and you are tampering
                >> with a
                >> sacred cow. An evil person is someone who does not support the
                >> system. Evil
                >> has lately come to mean sinner, but originally it meant opponent.
                >> LUF in
                >> trying to help those not part of the establishment find a better
                >> life is by
                >> definition evil. All it needs to attract the authorities is a
                >> group of
                >> people building a habitat - nothing more. Remember, before the
                >> pilgrims
                >> landed they held off shore until everyone signed a statement
                >> agreeing to
                >> support the new colony's government. They had Miles Standish as
                >> military
                >> commander, and they had a well thought out religious agenda. Some
                >> serious
                >> study needs to be done on statecraft, security and religion.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ______________________________________________________________________
                >
                > Don't forget to visit these LUF Sites!
                > LUF Team http://groups.yahoo.com/group/luf-team/
                > LUF Home http://www.luf.org/
                > LUF Website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/luf-website/
                >
                > Other sites:
                > OTEC News http://www.otecnews.org/
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
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