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Re: Second Life question

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  • John Wheeler
    There is, however, a sophisticated open-source sim engine already available, namely freeciv (www.freeciv.org). While it s open source nature means that making
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 1, 2006
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      There is, however, a sophisticated open-source sim engine already
      available, namely freeciv (www.freeciv.org). While it's open source
      nature means that making a profit off it would be very difficult, it
      would be a means of attracting people. One of the victory conditions
      is putting a colony on Alpha Centauri. While the historic aspects
      are pretty good, the futuristic part leaves a lot to be desired.

      The confederate script touches on a huge rant I have, but I will
      condense it to say if you really want to know what a dollar is really
      worth, burn one.

      John Wheeler

      --- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, Eric Hunting <hunting@...> wrote:
      > Unfortunately, a typical MMORPG has as high a development overhead
      as
      > any top-of-the-line computer game due both to high media
      production
      > overhead and high network center overhead. Though a possibility,
      at
      > present we probably couldn't realistically pursue something that
      > sophisticated without direct sponsorship of a high-profile game
      > developer with executives as dedicated to the TMP theme as we are.
      > Alas, it seems today that the rich don't have much serious
      interest
      > in the future beyond life extension quackery and fame-attracting
      > rocket jaunts -and who can blame them when the future is shaping
      up
      > to turn wealth as we know it into so much confederate scrit.
      >
      > Eric Hunting
    • Thomas Bjelkeman-Pettersson
      The effort is substantial to turn any of these into something usable. But there are open source engines out there which can be used as a base: The engine for
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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        The effort is substantial to turn any of these into something usable.
        But there are open source engines out there which can be used as a base:

        The engine for Ryzom for example is under GPL
        http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2003/10/16/nel.html

        The question is if it wouldn't be cheaper to actually just pay Second
        Life for the space one requires and work in there. I considered it,
        but I thought the price for an island was on the high side.

        Thomas
        --
        Thomas Bjelkeman-Pettersson, thomas@...
        OTEC News - The news source for Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion
        http://www.otecnews.org/
      • Mike Whelan
        ... Hi all, I m new to Yahoo groups and this group, so please forgive me (and inform me) if I mangle any established protocols. I read the book 10 years ago,
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 2, 2006
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          --- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, Eric Hunting <hunting@...> wrote:

          > So when it comes to putting a model of Aquarius or the like on-line,
          > the options are surprisingly few. It's pretty-much down to static
          > images (with an option to put them in a 2D chat platform like the
          > moribund but still available Palace system), videos, or Second Life.

          Hi all,
          I'm new to Yahoo groups and this group, so please forgive me (and
          inform me) if I mangle any established protocols. I read the book 10
          years ago, and immediately bought 10 copies for friends.

          I'm also very new to Second Life, and not a programmer, but it seems to
          me it's a perfect environment to build the "resort" and model the
          aquarius phases of the plan. Minimal investment of time, effort and
          cash can create the "attraction" necessary to draw support. Rent
          apartments and retail space rather than vacation rooms to generate the
          self-sustaining revenue.

          Why create a new site, or environment that would be a one-surf-stop for
          most browsers when you have a community already captured that already
          pays for unique experiences, and is, by it's own definition futuristic.

          Development could be complete before buying the property, and rents
          could be collected pretty quick. You could even sell real life copies
          of the book, show film clips, solicit feedback and allow new volunteers
          to contribute. All the mechanics for community are there already, it
          seems to me to be a shortcut to building prototypes that "work" and
          draw revenue.

          Might even be able to get MORE volunteers from in-world to join the
          modeling effort.

          - Mike
        • RanulfC@aol.com
          ... Greetings and welcome Mike, (Your message should have posted to the list by now :o) Not to worry if you mangle any established protocols we have an
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 3, 2006
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            MikeWhelan wrote:
            >Hi all,
            >I'm new to Yahoo groups and this group, so please forgive me (and
            >inform me) if I mangle any established protocols.

            Greetings and welcome Mike, (Your message should have posted to the list by
            now :o)

            Not to worry if you 'mangle' any established protocols we have an automatic
            hit squad show up at your door... No mess, no fuss....

            (Seriously :o)
            Feel free to dive right in... We've found that 'free-form' works well for us
            :o)

            >I read the book 10 years ago, and immediately bought 10 copies for friends.

            Someone ship this person a link for Erics version please... we need this guy
            to network for us :o)

            (Eric Hunting has done a bang-up job of 'updating' TMP)

            I've not been following the "Second Life" conversation thread as I should,
            (other things in REAL life are intruding at the moment :o) but feel free to
            fill us in with what your know or your opinions. All input at this point is
            welcome....
            (Well, ok, the spam and "Meet your perfect Soul-Mate" junk emails ARE a bit
            annoying.. but that's WHY we have moderators right? :o)

            Randy



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Eric Hunting
            ... I haven t heard of this game project before. It looks promising. I m going to have to keep an eye on this. There could be a lot of stuff here I can use in
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 6, 2006
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              > 1. Re: Second Life question
              > Posted by: "John Wheeler" jdw27_42@... jdwheeler42
              > Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 4:46 am ((PST))
              >
              > There is, however, a sophisticated open-source sim engine already
              > available, namely freeciv (www.freeciv.org). While it's open source
              > nature means that making a profit off it would be very difficult, it
              > would be a means of attracting people. One of the victory conditions
              > is putting a colony on Alpha Centauri. While the historic aspects
              > are pretty good, the futuristic part leaves a lot to be desired.
              >
              > The confederate script touches on a huge rant I have, but I will
              > condense it to say if you really want to know what a dollar is really
              > worth, burn one.
              >
              > John Wheeler

              I haven't heard of this game project before. It looks promising. I'm
              going to have to keep an eye on this. There could be a lot of stuff
              here I can use in the future, though its basic map engine would only
              serve for the intermediate map level with the drill-down map
              hierarchy I'm planning. As is, it could probably be easily adapted
              into a planetary simulation game, though it doesn't look like it gets
              down into to much of the functional detail of individual settlements.


              Eric Hunting

              hunting@...
            • RanulfC@aol.com
              Not sure if I asked this already or not... The idea of the remote robot Lunar base got me to thinking it s very much like some of the orginal SimCity stuff.
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 8, 2006
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                Not sure if I asked this already or not...

                The idea of the remote robot Lunar base got me to thinking it's very much
                like some of the orginal SimCity stuff. You wouldn't actually control each robot
                as much as problem solve some of the bigger stuff, while 'routine' matters
                would be handled by sub-programs.
                (Build 'transport' line between points "A" and "B," Build solar concentrator
                with parts from storage bay "1" at point "C," Run electrical fiber cable
                bundle from point "C" solar collector to point "A" maintenance bay, etc)

                Are there any 'free-ware' or 'share-ware' versions we might 'hack' or
                borrow? (Hell does anyone know if Will Wright has any free time or a version we can
                'borrow' for a bit? :o)

                I've found some share-ware of course, but I'm kinda loath to download and
                try it. (I just recently began to recover from having to nuke my hard drive and
                I still think I lost a lot even with the backups. (Not to mention, 'someone'
                TOSed me on AOL and my account was shut down for a few days :o)

                Anyway... with something like a basic sort of 'sim' that we can 'edit' we
                have the ability to network something like those little radio controlled
                construction vehicles I posted a while back... From there I might be able to get
                the local Space Camp interested in it for a summer session. Might even be able
                to get the local Universities in on the game... which would help.

                Anyway... For those who may be new, this is what I'm like when I've been off
                my ADD medications for more than two weeks :o)
                I tend to forget what I've talked about, and panic that I might have
                actually FOGOTTEN to put my opinion out into cyberspace... No worries.. they tell me
                I'll be back to 'normal' soon...
                (But DAMN that is boring ;o)

                Take care all

                Randy


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Eric Hunting
                ... There have been DIY computer game kits that could probably do a fair job of making a very simple simulation. The catch with them is that they tend to be
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 10, 2006
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                  On Dec 8, 2006, at 3:15 AM, luf-team@yahoogroups.com wrote:

                  > 2. Re: Second Life question
                  > Posted by: "RanulfC@..." RanulfC@...
                  > Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 1:43 am ((PST))
                  >
                  > Not sure if I asked this already or not...
                  >
                  > The idea of the remote robot Lunar base got me to thinking it's
                  > very much
                  > like some of the orginal SimCity stuff. You wouldn't actually
                  > control each robot
                  > as much as problem solve some of the bigger stuff, while 'routine'
                  > matters
                  > would be handled by sub-programs.
                  > (Build 'transport' line between points "A" and "B," Build solar
                  > concentrator
                  > with parts from storage bay "1" at point "C," Run electrical fiber
                  > cable
                  > bundle from point "C" solar collector to point "A" maintenance
                  > bay, etc)
                  >
                  > Are there any 'free-ware' or 'share-ware' versions we might 'hack' or
                  > borrow? (Hell does anyone know if Will Wright has any free time or
                  > a version we can
                  > 'borrow' for a bit? :o)
                  >
                  > I've found some share-ware of course, but I'm kinda loath to
                  > download and
                  > try it. (I just recently began to recover from having to nuke my
                  > hard drive and
                  > I still think I lost a lot even with the backups. (Not to mention,
                  > 'someone'
                  > TOSed me on AOL and my account was shut down for a few days :o)
                  >
                  > Anyway... with something like a basic sort of 'sim' that we can
                  > 'edit' we
                  > have the ability to network something like those little radio
                  > controlled
                  > construction vehicles I posted a while back... From there I might
                  > be able to get
                  > the local Space Camp interested in it for a summer session. Might
                  > even be able
                  > to get the local Universities in on the game... which would help.
                  >
                  > Anyway... For those who may be new, this is what I'm like when I've
                  > been off
                  > my ADD medications for more than two weeks :o)
                  > I tend to forget what I've talked about, and panic that I might have
                  > actually FOGOTTEN to put my opinion out into cyberspace... No
                  > worries.. they tell me
                  > I'll be back to 'normal' soon...
                  > (But DAMN that is boring ;o)
                  >
                  > Take care all
                  >
                  > Randy

                  There have been DIY computer game 'kits' that could probably do a
                  fair job of making a very simple simulation. The catch with them is
                  that they tend to be hard-wired to a very specific genre of game with
                  very limited pre-determined behavior options. They also lack any
                  external interface and so cannot be extended to control external
                  devices. However, there used to be a promising multimedia development
                  platform called mTropolis that was a contender for the market then
                  dominated by Macromedia Director which had an object oriented
                  architecture well suited to simulations and a sophisticated set of AI
                  tools as well as an external communications interface. This promising
                  platform -and its company- died in childbirth for unknown reasons but
                  there was brief talk of it re-emerging as an Open Source platform. I
                  never found out what happened to it, though.

                  There are a lot of commercial game development platforms now that
                  could do this but are expensive and need a high level of programming.
                  However, Thomas Hertzler had recommended to me a game development
                  package called Unity (http://unity3d.com/) developed in Germany
                  which, though expensive, is not as costly as most of these, ($250 for
                  the independent package) offers a 30 day free trial, and has a much
                  more designer-friendly scripting environment. Make no mistake, this
                  is not software for complete computer novices but it doesn't look too
                  bad to work with, has good looking OpenGL based 3D graphics, supports
                  both OS X and Windows, and can output games as stand-alones or even
                  Web based programs. It was apparently used to produce the game
                  GooBall sold by Ambrosia Software. It also works for architectural
                  visualizations, creating sharable VR walk-through demos and such.
                  It's not a multi-user environment as far as I recall but could be
                  suited to making freely explorable large area models of things like
                  Aquarius with embedded information and interactive elements that
                  could be Web hosted.




                  Eric Hunting

                  hunting@...
                • RanulfC@aol.com
                  ... Any pointers to web sites and such or names? I can always schedule a good look-see around my periods of high-interest activity :o) ... Not so much a
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 18, 2006
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                    Eric wrote:
                    >There have been DIY computer game 'kits' that could probably do a
                    >fair job of making a very simple simulation.

                    Any 'pointers' to web sites and such or names? I can always 'schedule' a
                    good look-see around my periods of "high-interest" activity :o)

                    >The catch with them is that they tend to be hard-wired to a very
                    >specific genre of game with very limited pre-determined behavior
                    >options.

                    Not so much a 'catch' as it seems since if you can 'hack' the program at
                    all, you can 'reset' the genre and behavior by 'tweeking' the background and
                    results areas.

                    >They also lack any external interface and so cannot be extended
                    >to control external devices.

                    Hee-hee.... You'd be surprised actually :o) (Probably)
                    Somewhere I had an article, (I suspect it was among the info lost but I'll
                    keep looking) which went into detail on how to use the programs
                    graphic/sound/etc, 'outputs' and control external devices. It was a bit of a pain to
                    actually 'see' or 'hear' what was going on you had to actually hookup equipment to
                    monitor and interpret the output devices but it was interesting how it was
                    done.

                    >There are a lot of commercial game development platforms now
                    >that could do this but are expensive and need a high level of
                    >programming.

                    Which is why I pretty much rejected them out of hand. In THIS case we don't
                    want a 'game' as much as a simple graphics interface for showing the concept
                    we're talking about.

                    I agree that we 'need' something more powerful for such things as your Solar
                    system game idea and a Virtual Aquarius, but it's WAY more than needed for
                    what I'm looking at.

                    I keep coming back to the orginal "SimCity" because it's so 'point-click'
                    available.

                    Randy



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Eric Hunting
                    Sourceforge and the various shareware/freeware archives are the best places I know of for looking for such software. I m more familiar with the commercial ones
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 22, 2006
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                      Sourceforge and the various shareware/freeware archives are the best
                      places I know of for looking for such software. I'm more familiar
                      with the commercial ones that were available for the Mac platform
                      and, at the moment, all of them have long gone obsolete. No one seems
                      to be making these for the Mac right now and the current OS has
                      evolved so much it probably can't support the ones from the past. It
                      may be a different story with the PC. There's a lot more interest
                      among PC gamers in hacking the current games and a lot of tools have
                      emerged to facilitate this.

                      The current version of SimCity has a very elaborate editor (on the
                      PC...) and people have used it to make building sets that simulate
                      space settlements. (Maxis was long promising space settlement theme
                      simulation games but the projects died when work on The Sims bled
                      them dry of manpower) The catch with SimCity, though, is that most of
                      its 'trip generation' is abstract. Vehicle traffic is usually
                      portrayed as modes of the 'tiles' for roads which basically indicate
                      the passing of a trip flag. In other words, vehicles don't exist as
                      independent graphic object with independent movement. They are
                      portrayed as part of the road tiles, their apparent motion an
                      illusion created by sequences of animation in the set of images for
                      the road tiles. It's like the illusion of motion made by the running
                      lights of an old fashioned theater marquis. The simulation of a
                      colony of robots would thus be difficult because the software doesn't
                      really understand free moving entities with complex behavior
                      interacting with an environment. Vehicles only exist as trip messages
                      passed in the database. This is common in a lot of simulations
                      However, SimCity always had random free-roving 'monsters' which may
                      be hacked to serve as more independent vehicles and if this doesn't
                      work this free moving entity feature may have been added with the
                      addition of the SimCity Rush Hour expansion which supported scripted
                      'missions' where certain vehicles would conduct independent activity
                      and where the player could drive vehicles around the city to perform
                      certain tasks. As far as I can recall, through, the editing tools
                      don't apply to any of these monster or vehicles.


                      > 2. Re: Second Life question
                      > Posted by: "RanulfC@..." RanulfC@...
                      > Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:31 pm ((PST))
                      >
                      > Eric wrote:
                      >> There have been DIY computer game 'kits' that could probably do a
                      >> fair job of making a very simple simulation.
                      >
                      > Any 'pointers' to web sites and such or names? I can always
                      > 'schedule' a
                      > good look-see around my periods of "high-interest" activity :o)
                      >
                      >> The catch with them is that they tend to be hard-wired to a very
                      >> specific genre of game with very limited pre-determined behavior
                      >> options.
                      >
                      > Not so much a 'catch' as it seems since if you can 'hack' the
                      > program at
                      > all, you can 'reset' the genre and behavior by 'tweeking' the
                      > background and
                      > results areas.
                      >
                      >> They also lack any external interface and so cannot be extended
                      >> to control external devices.
                      >
                      > Hee-hee.... You'd be surprised actually :o) (Probably)
                      > Somewhere I had an article, (I suspect it was among the info lost
                      > but I'll
                      > keep looking) which went into detail on how to use the programs
                      > graphic/sound/etc, 'outputs' and control external devices. It was a
                      > bit of a pain to
                      > actually 'see' or 'hear' what was going on you had to actually
                      > hookup equipment to
                      > monitor and interpret the output devices but it was interesting
                      > how it was
                      > done.
                      >
                      >> There are a lot of commercial game development platforms now
                      >> that could do this but are expensive and need a high level of
                      >> programming.
                      >
                      > Which is why I pretty much rejected them out of hand. In THIS case
                      > we don't
                      > want a 'game' as much as a simple graphics interface for showing
                      > the concept
                      > we're talking about.
                      >
                      > I agree that we 'need' something more powerful for such things as
                      > your Solar
                      > system game idea and a Virtual Aquarius, but it's WAY more than
                      > needed for
                      > what I'm looking at.
                      >
                      > I keep coming back to the orginal "SimCity" because it's so 'point-
                      > click'
                      > available.
                      >
                      > Randy

                      Eric Hunting

                      hunting@...
                    • Robert Reed
                      I must also say that Microsoft s XNA has recently been released. It is basically a .NET architecture geared towards gaming rather than business applications.
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 23, 2006
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                        I must also say that Microsoft's XNA has recently been released. It
                        is basically a .NET architecture geared towards gaming rather than
                        business applications. It is free to download, along with the Visual
                        C# compiler. For about $100/year, you can use the kit and framework
                        to develop for the XBOX 360. http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/faq/

                        There is already a Mono (Open Source/Unix implementation of .NET)
                        version of XNA in the works, so you should eventually be able to play
                        games made with XNA in Linux, PS3, and perhaps even the Wii.

                        --- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, Eric Hunting <hunting@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > On Dec 8, 2006, at 3:15 AM, luf-team@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                        >
                        > > 2. Re: Second Life question
                        > > Posted by: "RanulfC@..." RanulfC@...
                        > > Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 1:43 am ((PST))
                        > >
                        > > Not sure if I asked this already or not...
                        > >
                        > > The idea of the remote robot Lunar base got me to thinking it's
                        > > very much
                        > > like some of the orginal SimCity stuff. You wouldn't actually
                        > > control each robot
                        > > as much as problem solve some of the bigger stuff, while 'routine'
                        > > matters
                        > > would be handled by sub-programs.
                        > > (Build 'transport' line between points "A" and "B," Build solar
                        > > concentrator
                        > > with parts from storage bay "1" at point "C," Run electrical fiber
                        > > cable
                        > > bundle from point "C" solar collector to point "A" maintenance
                        > > bay, etc)
                        > >
                        > > Are there any 'free-ware' or 'share-ware' versions we might 'hack' or
                        > > borrow? (Hell does anyone know if Will Wright has any free time or
                        > > a version we can
                        > > 'borrow' for a bit? :o)
                        > >
                        > > I've found some share-ware of course, but I'm kinda loath to
                        > > download and
                        > > try it. (I just recently began to recover from having to nuke my
                        > > hard drive and
                        > > I still think I lost a lot even with the backups. (Not to mention,
                        > > 'someone'
                        > > TOSed me on AOL and my account was shut down for a few days :o)
                        > >
                        > > Anyway... with something like a basic sort of 'sim' that we can
                        > > 'edit' we
                        > > have the ability to network something like those little radio
                        > > controlled
                        > > construction vehicles I posted a while back... From there I might
                        > > be able to get
                        > > the local Space Camp interested in it for a summer session. Might
                        > > even be able
                        > > to get the local Universities in on the game... which would help.
                        > >
                        > > Anyway... For those who may be new, this is what I'm like when I've
                        > > been off
                        > > my ADD medications for more than two weeks :o)
                        > > I tend to forget what I've talked about, and panic that I might have
                        > > actually FOGOTTEN to put my opinion out into cyberspace... No
                        > > worries.. they tell me
                        > > I'll be back to 'normal' soon...
                        > > (But DAMN that is boring ;o)
                        > >
                        > > Take care all
                        > >
                        > > Randy
                        >
                        > There have been DIY computer game 'kits' that could probably do a
                        > fair job of making a very simple simulation. The catch with them is
                        > that they tend to be hard-wired to a very specific genre of game with
                        > very limited pre-determined behavior options. They also lack any
                        > external interface and so cannot be extended to control external
                        > devices. However, there used to be a promising multimedia development
                        > platform called mTropolis that was a contender for the market then
                        > dominated by Macromedia Director which had an object oriented
                        > architecture well suited to simulations and a sophisticated set of AI
                        > tools as well as an external communications interface. This promising
                        > platform -and its company- died in childbirth for unknown reasons but
                        > there was brief talk of it re-emerging as an Open Source platform. I
                        > never found out what happened to it, though.
                        >
                        > There are a lot of commercial game development platforms now that
                        > could do this but are expensive and need a high level of programming.
                        > However, Thomas Hertzler had recommended to me a game development
                        > package called Unity (http://unity3d.com/) developed in Germany
                        > which, though expensive, is not as costly as most of these, ($250 for
                        > the independent package) offers a 30 day free trial, and has a much
                        > more designer-friendly scripting environment. Make no mistake, this
                        > is not software for complete computer novices but it doesn't look too
                        > bad to work with, has good looking OpenGL based 3D graphics, supports
                        > both OS X and Windows, and can output games as stand-alones or even
                        > Web based programs. It was apparently used to produce the game
                        > GooBall sold by Ambrosia Software. It also works for architectural
                        > visualizations, creating sharable VR walk-through demos and such.
                        > It's not a multi-user environment as far as I recall but could be
                        > suited to making freely explorable large area models of things like
                        > Aquarius with embedded information and interactive elements that
                        > could be Web hosted.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Eric Hunting
                        >
                        > hunting@...
                        >
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