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A New Respect for the Army

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  • RanulfC@aol.com
    Not that I’m thinking there would be JUST as many volunteers from the other services :o) Makes me even prouder of the military :o)
    Message 1 of 6 , May 1, 2008
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      Not that I’m thinking there would be JUST as many volunteers from the other
      services :o)
      Makes me even prouder of the military :o)
      _http://www.livescience.com/blogs/2008/04/25/afghanistan-heroes-offer-to-colon
      ize-moon-mars-and-beyond/_
      (http://www.livescience.com/blogs/2008/04/25/afghanistan-heroes-offer-to-colonize-moon-mars-and-beyond/)
      Randy



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    • ben lipkowitz
      Bless this man for his bravery and selflessness! Unlike you cowardly worthless civilian pieces of trash, this man is willing to risk his life and job to go
      Message 2 of 6 , May 1, 2008
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        "Bless this man for his bravery and selflessness!" Unlike you cowardly
        worthless civilian pieces of trash, this man is willing to risk his life
        and job to go into space, in order to serve the rest of us. God willing,
        his employer (the military) might even manage to wangle a bit of their
        600 BILLION DOLLAR BUDGET
        to help him do so. It makes me so proud, it hurts.

        > Not that I’m thinking there would be JUST as many volunteers from the other
        > services :o)
        > Makes me even prouder of the military :o)
        > _http://www.livescience.com/blogs/2008/04/25/afghanistan-heroes-offer-to-colon
        > ize-moon-mars-and-beyond/_
        > (http://www.livescience.com/blogs/2008/04/25/afghanistan-heroes-offer-to-colonize-moon-mars-and-beyond/)
        > Randy
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • code suidae
        ... I don t think there is any shortage of people who are willing to jump on a rocket to go colonize whatever space rock you point it at, including plenty of
        Message 3 of 6 , May 1, 2008
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          On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:29 AM, ben lipkowitz <fenn@...> wrote:
          > "Bless this man for his bravery and selflessness!" Unlike you cowardly
          > worthless civilian pieces of trash, this man is willing to risk his life
          > and job to go into space, in order to serve the rest of us.

          I don't think there is any shortage of people who are willing to jump
          on a rocket to go colonize whatever space rock you point it at,
          including plenty of them who would still be willing to go if it was
          guaranteed to be a one-way ticket (and I'm not adverse to the idea of
          one-way missions, though I'm not sure I'd volunteer for one myself).

          What we lack is the knowledge of how to be successful and the gumption
          to go find out. I think it would be very interesting to put men like
          those into some test conditions, maybe hook them up with some gear and
          mock space suits and then put them out in the Antarctic desert to
          practice assembling some habitats. I'm sure they would have some good
          feedback about what could be done better and whether they think it can
          be done at all.

          CS
          --
          "Our ignorance is not so vast as our failure to use what we know." -
          M. King Hubbert
        • RanulfC@aol.com
          CS: Thanks for replying which allows me to put-off responding to Fenn s Chip-on-my-shoulder post till later :o) ... I believe that your correct though I
          Message 4 of 6 , May 1, 2008
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            CS: Thanks for replying which allows me to put-off responding to Fenn's
            "Chip-on-my-shoulder" post till later :o)

            You wrote:
            >I don't think there is any shortage of people who are willing to jump
            >on a rocket to go colonize whatever space rock you point it at,
            >including plenty of them who would still be willing to go if it was
            >guaranteed to be a one-way ticket (and I'm not adverse to the idea
            >of one-way missions, though I'm not sure I'd volunteer for one myself).

            I believe that your correct though I suspect a large majority of those
            people would have no REAL idea of what they would be signing up for or what to
            expect. While I'm 'adverse' to the idea the truth would be that in most cases
            colonization WOULD be a one way trip with little chance of returning IF you're
            serious about it. Two way travel will have to wait until transportation costs
            fall dramatically, and that is not likely in the first decade or so of a
            colony.


            Exploration and getting the 'lay' of the land as it were, now those are
            usually NOT one-way and shouldn't be really. You can only do 'so-much' in-place
            with what you can bring with you and Earth is going to have the deepest tech
            and infrastructure in the Solar System for quite a while.

            >What we lack is the knowledge of how to be successful and the gumption
            >to go find out. I think it would be very interesting to put men like
            >those into some test conditions, maybe hook them up with some gear and
            >mock space suits and then put them out in the Antarctic desert to
            >practice assembling some habitats. I'm sure they would have some good
            >feedback about what could be done better and whether they think it can
            >be done at all.

            I'll have to 'disagree' that we lack the knowledge of how to be successful,
            after all we as a species have been 'colonizing' across the Earth for a long
            while, I do agree "we" lack the gumption. It is not a 'priority' as stated in
            the article for 99% of the population of the Earth exploring and colonizing
            the Solar System is pretty far down on their "things-to-think-about" let alone
            "things-to-do" list :o)

            As for putting some military folks into some 'test' conditions.....
            Well let me pre-face this with admitting up front that "I" am a "vet" with
            21 years in the Air Force as an enlisted technician under my belt. I did my
            time but in comparison to the Army, the Marines, even in some cases the Navy or
            Coast-Guard, I had the 'easy' duties.
            But I've DONE some of what you're suggesting, as has everyone else in the
            military :o)
            We already KNOW how much of bitch it's going to be to wear a bulky
            protective suit in a 'hostile' environment while putting up buildings that need to be
            air-tight and what it's like to live under conditions where even getting out
            to go to the bathroom is a multi-step process with a lot of work required to
            'stay-alive' between your bunk, the toilet, and back again. It's why I'm
            pretty sure that most folks have no CLUE how tough colonization is going to be!

            One example I keep having to point out to people, (and which Eric harps on
            but few actually listen :o) is that the CONCEPT of 'going' outside is going to
            have a whole new meaning to people on say the Moon or Mars and I've found
            that few can 'adjust' from their preconceived notions of it being simply putting
            on a space suit, going out and admiring the view and then coming back in and
            going to bed for the night.

            No such luck! Both Lunar and Martian dust is going to be health hazards in
            and of themselves as well as being hazardous to life support systems equipment,
            so each time someone goes 'outside' they are going to need to be
            'decontaminated' before they are allowed back inside.
            That is not going to be a simple or fast process, take it from me, or anyone
            in the military. Just ask, sure "we" all know the short-cuts and work
            arounds that happen when your not being inspected, but we also are all WELL aware
            that it is really 'life-or-death' if it's real and we know how much work it is
            to 'decon' to safe levels. You start in the first 'station' (a real
            "airlock") and someone has to be there to help you out of your 'outside' gear,
            (web-belt, harness', helmet, etc) then they dust you down and brush you off and
            blow off as much 'contamination' as possible. (Meanwhile they are ALSO dressed
            in full environment gear, in our case protective suits, in the Lunar or Martian
            case it would be it light weight haz-mat gear but they still have to have
            almost the same level of 'protection' as the person in the space suit)
            You've also got your 'buddies' helping since you try and cram as many people
            into each 'step' as possible, and you in turn are helping them. Once you
            have all the 'gear' off and tucked away for later cleaning and storage, (you'll
            pick the same stuff up again on your way out, it's already contaminated and
            there is only so much you can do to clean it so for the most part beyond some
            maintenance and superficial decon it will be put in a locker with your name on
            it and you'll use it every single time you go out) you and your buddies line
            up at the next 'door' and wait for it to be opened. Back inside yet? Hardly,
            you just got started, you're still inside your full environment suit
            (pressure suit) and breathing through either a 'walk-around' bottle or a hose
            connection to supplied air. We'd keep our masks on until half way through where
            we'd switch to a 'clean' mask so ours could be fully decontaminated, in the case
            of Luna or Mars that would be about the same point that the EVA person would
            switch TO a filtered breathing mask, but that is still at least a couple
            more 'rooms' away at this point.
            Back to our EVA/Decon group; someone opens the next door when given the
            signal, air will push INTO the chamber your in because each succeeding room has
            higher pressure to ensure that contamination/dust is blown BACK into the more
            contaminated space. Once everyone is in the next room the door is closed and
            you begin to use the buddy system again to clean as much of your actual SUIT
            as possible while the air exchanger goes into high gear to try and filter all
            the loose stuff your stirring up and get it out of the air as soon as
            possible. For the NBC (Nuclear/Biological/Chemical) decon you're wiping down the
            outside of the suit with special bleaches, dusting them with powders to soak up
            and absorb chemical and other contaminants while your buddies do the places
            you can't reach and the assistant wields a vacuum hose. While the process
            won't be exactly the same at this point for EVA it WILL be similar. You're going
            to spend up to a half an hour trying to get every trace of the outside
            environment off your suit as possible because that is going to make the job of
            actually cleaning it that much easier to do. Unlike us 'lucky' NBC contaminated
            folks who get issued a new suit every time we go out, the EVA folks will HAVE
            to wear the same suit so they can't just strip it off and dump it in a
            haz-mat container like we do. (Next step) The Lunar and Mars folks are going to
            have to stand there and try and get every single bit of dust they possibly can
            off their suit before they move on, because that suit is going to have to be
            maintained and repaired and re-worn every time they go outside. But lets
            assume they have done as much as possible.....
            Once that is done you have to move into another room, (again with higher
            pressure to keep that stuff in the room you just left) here again with
            assistance from your buddies and a helper or two you're going to remove the suit.
            First thing you'll do is take a deep breath and hold it while you switch off the
            bottle of unhook the air hose, then they are going to help you out of your
            helmet and into a filter mask so you can breath because you KNOW you still
            didn't get everything off and the outside of that suit still has stuff on it. (We
            NBC warriors switch to our 'secondary' mask at this point using the same
            procedure) People will then help each other out of the suits trying like
            anything to touch the outside of the suit as little as possible or to stir up the
            dust off the suits, again with the air exchanger at full blast cause you're
            going to stir the stuff up no matter how careful you try and be. At this point
            your NBC folks are standing there in a mask and their underwear, if they were
            wearing any, while our EVA folks would have on their cooling garment or
            whatever space-underwear they have and filter mask. Next step; open the next door
            (higher pressure but still not full hab pressure) and step through. Once
            everyone is in and the door closed you'll grab a pack of what are basically
            'wet-wipes' and give yourself a sponge bath to remove the stuff you inevitably got
            on yourself while removing the suits.
            Once each person is done they step to another airlock door, step in, close
            the door take a deep breath and remove the filter mask, drop it in a bin to be
            recycled and cleaned and put back into the room you just left. Grab another
            'wet-wipe' and get your face and hair before you open the inner airlock door
            and FINALLY step inside the hab environment. And you will DO that entire
            process every time you go 'out' even if it is only for a minute!

            Note how much of this is 'practiced' at the Antarctic habitat, or the Utah
            one :o)
            What they NEED to do is put a habitat in the middle of the Saudi desert, or
            someplace else that has that wonderfully 'fine' dust and sand that becomes
            airborne at the slightest breeze. That gets into everything, your clothes, your
            hair, your bed, your food till you finally get used to the nice 'crunchy'
            feeling in your coffee. Because the stuff on the Moon and Mars is even FINER and
            more insidious, and not enough people take that seriously.

            And that is only ONE of the hazards, among hundreds that most people don't
            give more than a second or two's thought to when they think of 'exploration' or
            colonization.
            But I think you all get the point, so I'll close by saying "YES" we want to
            get folks like this involved and YES we want their feedback, because they
            would have plenty of it. They KNOW what the 'cheats' and 'work-arounds' are but
            they also know that you can't REALLY know what you need and how to do it
            unless and until you play the game for 'real' and treat your situation as
            real-world and not an exercise.
            Practicing and learning 'colonization' to be used on the Moon or Mars isn't
            something you can do even in remote place like the Antarctic or the deep Utah
            deserts because you're still within easy reach of all the infrastructure and
            support of Earth, and deep down the folks doing these tests KNOW this.
            I don't think 'civvies' are worthless nor do I think the military people are
            deities to be worshipped both are very much human and very much needed for
            different skill sets to get a job done. But if you plan on going out into the
            universe and settling down it's a very nice idea to run your 'master-plan'
            through with some people who are not going to overlook the fact that you only
            brought 1 (one) 7/16ths socket with you to Mars which you lost yesterday and
            then realize that over 90% of your fitting REQUIRE that size socket!

            Different skill sets and experiences lead to differing view-points and ways
            of seeing problems and opportunities. It doesn't make one or the other 'wrong'
            or 'bad' they are just that: different. And different is always helpful when
            your planning a big project because when everyone looks from the same view
            they also tend to OVER-look the same also.

            Randy



            **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
            favorites at AOL Food.
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          • code suidae
            ... Agreed. Sending the wrong people for initial colonization efforts could be a PR disaster in addition to being a huge waste of equipment, time, effort and
            Message 5 of 6 , May 2, 2008
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              On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 7:31 PM, <RanulfC@...> wrote:
              > I believe that your correct though I suspect a large majority of those
              > people would have no REAL idea of what they would be signing up for or what to
              > expect.

              Agreed. Sending the wrong people for initial colonization efforts
              could be a PR disaster in addition to being a huge waste of equipment,
              time, effort and money. Later on as the number of people required or
              allowed increases it wouldn't be as big a deal.

              > While I'm 'adverse' to the idea the truth would be that in most cases
              > colonization WOULD be a one way trip with little chance of returning IF you're
              > serious about it.

              Right, I'm not suggesting we send people to Mars with nothing but 6
              months worth of food and a wish for the best. By one-way I mean that
              they'd be going out with the understanding that while we're going to
              keep sending supplies and equipment (and other people) to set up a
              self-sufficient base, there currently isn't any existing equipment
              that can bring them back.

              > Exploration and getting the 'lay' of the land as it were, now those are
              > usually NOT one-way and shouldn't be really.

              Hopefully the majority of that work can be done via one-way robotic
              missions and satellites, so that by the time we are ready to send
              people there won't be any need to go check it out and then come back.
              Maybe not, but it sure would save a lot of effort.

              > >What we lack is the knowledge of how to be successful and the gumption
              > >to go find out.
              >
              > I'll have to 'disagree' that we lack the knowledge of how to be successful,
              > after all we as a species have been 'colonizing' across the Earth for a long
              > while,

              I mean that we lack specific knowledge about what it will take to do
              it on other planets. We have some ideas about what it'll take, but we
              haven't tried anything beyond a quick camping trip.

              > Both Lunar and Martian dust is going to be health hazards in
              > and of themselves as well as being hazardous to life support systems equipment,

              While some of the issues around dust can be mitigated with microwave
              vitrification or other techniques that will reduce the quantity of
              dust that they'll have to deal with, there will almost certainly be
              important unforeseen issues like this that must be discovered.

              > And that is only ONE of the hazards, among hundreds that most people don't
              > give more than a second or two's thought to when they think of 'exploration' or
              > colonization.

              Exactly. That's the knowledge that we lack about being successful. We
              can do a lot of planning and prep work here, but the only way to
              really know is to go out there and find out. I like the idea of being
              as prepared as practical, but I like better the idea of sending people
              who can, when necessary, improvise success.

              > But if you plan on going out into the
              > universe and settling down it's a very nice idea to run your 'master-plan'
              > through with some people who are not going to overlook the fact that you only
              > brought 1 (one) 7/16ths socket with you to Mars which you lost yesterday and
              > then realize that over 90% of your fitting REQUIRE that size socket!

              Well, maybe they'll forgive you if it was a Snap-On brand socket; they
              deliver :)

              CS
              --
              "Our ignorance is not so vast as our failure to use what we know." -
              M. King Hubbert
            • RanulfC@aol.com
              ... only ... and ... Free-delivery from you local dealer, THAT could be a sticking point I m thinking ;o) Or we COULD just buy a couple dozen of these
              Message 6 of 6 , May 2, 2008
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                I wrote:
                >>But if you plan on going out into the
                >>universe and settling down it's a very nice idea to run your 'master-plan'
                >>through with some people who are not going to overlook the fact that you
                only
                >>brought 1 (one) 7/16ths socket with you to Mars which you lost yesterday
                and
                >>then realize that over 90% of your fitting REQUIRE that size socket!

                CS wrote:
                >Well, maybe they'll forgive you if it was a Snap-On brand socket;
                >they deliver :)

                Free-delivery from you 'local' dealer, THAT could be a sticking point I'm
                thinking ;o)

                Or we COULD just buy a couple dozen of these instead:
                _http://www.asseenontv.com/prod-pages/gatorgrip.html_
                (http://www.asseenontv.com/prod-pages/gatorgrip.html)

                The actually come in a few different diameters which makes using them a lot
                simpler... Bring a dozen spares in place of a full socket set and just make
                sure EVERY fitting that takes a socket has a large enough diameter to fit on
                of these :o)

                Randy





                **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
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