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Re: abortion?

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  • J. Gravelle
    I despise this issue. I m a computer geek. I like the exactness of the binary world. 1 or 0. Yes or no. T is or t aint. The crux of the abortion question
    Message 1 of 30 , Oct 13, 2000
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      I despise this issue.

      I'm a computer geek. I like the exactness of the binary world.
      1 or 0. Yes or no. T'is or t'aint.

      The crux of the abortion question for most people is that fuzzy
      nether-region; the non-descript moment when a human-becoming
      can be considered a human being. It's a critical moment from
      the Libertarian standpoint. After all, human-beings have the
      right to life. But it's hard for most of us to recognize
      a microscopic mass as a person. It's equally difficult to
      deny the humanity of a baby who is 99% gestated.

      At the extremes of the issue, we have folks who consider it
      cut and dried. Steadfast lifers insist that IUDs are murder
      weapons and that rape victims should be forced to bear their
      attacker's progeny. Ardent choicers defend the gruesome
      dilation and extraction procedure seconds prior to birth.

      Opinion polls indicate that the majority of us meander around
      in the middle. I don't like being in the majority. I'm a
      Libertarian. But I'm none too fond of the absolutist positions
      either. I really, really despise this issue.

      Like the Demoplicans and the Republicrats, the LP has folks on
      both sides of the aisle on this matter. Unlike the big two, we
      are not so divided as to paralyze ourselves. Even without
      a specific abortion plank, it is safe to say that we are all
      working toward ending compulsory financing of abortions,
      keeping medical records private, and restoring confidentiality
      to doctor-patient relationships.

      It's not much, but the fact that we can unite people on ANY
      aspect of an issue this polarizing and divisive says a lot
      about the strength of the party and the integrity of its members.

      -J. Gravelle
    • Tom Ender
      ... First, this isn t my position on abortion. I will state a possible rebuttal to what you said, but I don t really want to argue a position on abortion that
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 13, 2000
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        Adam D Miller wrote:
        *} the woman becomes the slave of the fetus. 
        *) The mother is put in a position of 
        *} involuntary servitude.

        *}
        *} There are many libertarian positions on some issues.

        Coming from the pro-life viewpoint, does that make parents slaves of their children, simply because they're required to look out for the best interests of their children?

        First, this isn't my position on abortion.

        I will state a possible rebuttal to what you said, but I don't really want to argue a position on abortion that isn't my own. I don't really want to argue about abortion at all.

        A born child is someone a mother decided to carry to term. The fetus in question is not in the same position as regards the mother. Therefore, it is reasonable to consider that the obligations are different.

        --
        The Libertarian Party has no power. That is its prime virtue.
        The Republican Party isn't the Democratic Party. That is its prime virtue.
        The Democratic Party is obvious in its thirst for power.
        That is its only virtue.
                                  J. Neil Schulman, April 23, 2000

        Let Freedom Ring,
        ...Tom Ender
         

      • Cody Williams
        I agree. I, for one, am adopted. And as much as he might deny it, everyone close to me and everyone at school knows it, and it s never been a big deal at
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 15, 2000
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          I agree. I, for one, am adopted. And as much as he might deny it, everyone
          close to me and everyone at school knows it, and it's never been a big deal
          at all. While I may be a bit crazy at times, I am certainly not neurotic.
          He's done a wonderful job of offending and PO-ing ME.

          Cody Williams,
          Adoptee



          >In the past I've read your emails and been somewhat offended by them
          >(didn't even matter whether I agreed with you or not). This one sinks
          >to a new low.
          >
          >Perhaps you'd be willing to point out the scientifically valid studies
          >that show that people who were adopted as children are all neurotic (or
          >even more neurotic than other people who got equivalent starts in life)?
          >
          >There are indeed big problems with adoptions -- like all other things
          >government has become so deeply involved in. However, your statements
          >about what adoption "is" are about as offensive as can be. They lead me
          >to wonder if the intent of your arguements are to convince people or
          >drive them away. If the second, you're coming close to success since
          >I'm nearly ready to quit reading anything with your name on it.
          >
          >
          >--
          >"In the beginning of a change, The Patriot is a scarce man, brave,
          >hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join
          >him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain
          >(RIP Peter McWilliams)
          >James S. Rustad LPWI NRA Life
          >
          >
          >IMPORTANT email addresses for this group:
          >
          > To post a message: lpwi@...
          >
          > To unsubscribe: lpwi-unsubscribe@...
          >
          >To contact list owner: lpwi-owner@...
          >
          >http://www.egroups.com/group/lpwi/info.html
          >
          >
        • James S. Rustad
          ... In the past I ve read your emails and been somewhat offended by them (didn t even matter whether I agreed with you or not). This one sinks to a new low.
          Message 4 of 30 , Oct 15, 2000
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            Steven Maximilln wrote:

            > Pro-Lifers argue the merits of adoption programs. Adoption is just as much
            > of a government regulated industry as any other. Adopted children are
            > thrown into a system that seeks to match them with the parent that has the
            > most available money (or best qualifies for government assistance and
            > subsidy). New, scared mothers are plagued with media sensationalized
            > stories of children who, 20 years later, want to find their biological
            > mother. These movies play on the consciences and guilt of young mothers
            > that are already emotionally distraught or who may even by a bit
            > psychologically imbalanced (don't *anyone* dispute a woman's right to be a
            > tad bit psycho during pregnancy). How many made-for-TV movies illustrate an
            > adopted child who is grateful for being given a chance to escape the throes
            > of an unhappy upbringing? "Adopted" is a word that's whispered behind
            > hands, a family secret, a problem that develops into a neurosis as a child
            > realizes that parents aren't really "parents". There's a social stigma on
            > the entire adoption system... and this is the option that pro-lifers invoke.
            > Sheep--baaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!

            In the past I've read your emails and been somewhat offended by them
            (didn't even matter whether I agreed with you or not). This one sinks
            to a new low.

            Perhaps you'd be willing to point out the scientifically valid studies
            that show that people who were adopted as children are all neurotic (or
            even more neurotic than other people who got equivalent starts in life)?

            There are indeed big problems with adoptions -- like all other things
            government has become so deeply involved in. However, your statements
            about what adoption "is" are about as offensive as can be. They lead me
            to wonder if the intent of your arguements are to convince people or
            drive them away. If the second, you're coming close to success since
            I'm nearly ready to quit reading anything with your name on it.


            --
            "In the beginning of a change, The Patriot is a scarce man, brave,
            hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join
            him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain
            (RIP Peter McWilliams)
            James S. Rustad LPWI NRA Life
          • James S. Rustad
            ... And you can find someone to promote each of those positions as the one true libertarian position (especially on the abortion issue). I remember being told
            Message 5 of 30 , Oct 15, 2000
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              Tom Ender wrote:

              > There are many libertarian positions on some issues.

              And you can find someone to promote each of those positions as the one
              true libertarian position (especially on the abortion issue).

              I remember being told in a news group that "abortion is a libertarian
              principle". I wish I'd thought fast enough to respond that if "abortion
              is a libertarian principle", it's too bad the poster's parents hadn't
              agreed with that principle.

              (Tom, thanks for the jumping-off place.)

              --
              "In the beginning of a change, The Patriot is a scarce man, brave,
              hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join
              him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain
              (RIP Peter McWilliams)
              James S. Rustad LPWI NRA Life
            • Steven Maximilln
              ... In the past I ve read your emails and been somewhat offended by them (didn t even matter whether I agreed with you or not). This one sinks to a new low.
              Message 6 of 30 , Oct 15, 2000
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                -----
                In the past I've read your emails and been somewhat offended by them
                (didn't even matter whether I agreed with you or not). This one sinks
                to a new low.
                -----
                There's nothing low about the truth. If you're offended by your government
                programs and what they've done to this society, then that's a real good
                impetus to change them.

                -----
                Perhaps you'd be willing to point out the scientifically valid studies
                that show that people who were adopted as children are all neurotic (or
                even more neurotic than other people who got equivalent starts in life)?
                -----
                I never said that the children all grow up to be neurotic. I just said that
                the system of adoption and how society handles this particular phenomenon
                isn't exactly what I would call a healthy child rearing situation. Do you
                disagree that the majority of media attention on this subject deals with
                children who grow up, realize that they've been "adopted", and venture out
                on a heart-wrenching quest to find their long lost mother (or father)? Can
                you deny that programming like this will have a profound impact on
                up-and-coming mothers that may be faced with a life decision like this one?
                Can you deny that there is a distinct lack of media portrayal of healthy
                adoption situations?

                Did you grow up in my household (I was adopted by one of my parents--that
                gives me authority to speak on this issue)? Did you live in any of the
                foster homes that my older brother and I lived in--homes that had 5 or 6
                adopted children in them? I can remember them, and I'll be happy to tell
                you about them--as long as you're buying drinks. It's not really a topic
                that brings a smile to my face. Are you in parental circles that have
                adopted children? Do you know any adopted children below the age of ten
                that have honestly discussed the issue of their adoption with their parents
                and are comfortable with it? Do you deny that learning about something as
                important as "who my parents really are" may have a significant effect on a
                person's psyche if it's put off to the mid-teen to late-teen years...
                especially given the amount of importance that our moral majority places on
                biological father and mother in the media? Can you deny that adoption
                mechanisms in this country have sunk to an all time low, indicated by the
                fact that adoption advertisements are shown with the trailers before movies
                in theatres rather than being a well-oiled mechanism that cares for these
                children without cheesy advertising regimens?

                I had the benefit of knowing that I was adopted by my mother, and I came to
                grips very early on in my life with who my real mother was. I managed to
                avoid the media publicized, fanatical quest for mommy at age sixteen because
                I knew from age six that it didn't really matter. Of course, most people
                will also still cede two things: 1) I see things a little more cynically
                than most people, 2) That boy just ain't right upstairs. (neither of these
                things can be clinically linked to whether or not I was adopted, and they
                probably aren't... I throw them in so that people can draw their own
                conclusions and, preferably, a little humour)

                A corollary to one and two: 3) What's my batting average? I think I'm
                still right more often than not. Don't beat the messenger--go back to the
                source and beat the people that gave me this kind of stuff to report.

                "Ummmmm... Bill, we've got far too many children coming into the adoption
                and social service programs because we keep busting their parents for
                possession of an 8-ball, an ounce of grass, or for taking their children off
                of Ritalin."
                "Awwwww... don't worry about it. Just advertise about it more. Put 'em out
                on the block." (like slaves)

                We advertise products--not people. We advertise products--not effective
                solutions. Judging by the hoops and hurdles and cost involved with adopting
                a child, I would say that the children up for adoption in this country are
                no more than a number in the General Accounting Office's ledger--how much
                income will this program generate this year? To hell with product quality
                (the emotional quality of the 20-year old adopted child). That's shown by
                the 13.6 cent return that we get on the tax dollar with government programs.
                I shouldn't need to justify myself.

                -----
                However, your statements about what adoption "is" are about as offensive as
                can be.
                -----
                The drug war is as offensive as can be. People's rights violated, their
                homes broken into, pregnant women pushed to the floor and a boot planted
                squarely in her back. Men forced to die choking on their own vomit in their
                bathtubs. Children forced into the government child processing system
                because the parents are carted off to jail. Do I need to apologize for the
                truth? If people want to discuss tough issues like abortion or how badly
                our government has mutilated the proper functioning of society and family,
                then they should be ready to face these things.

                If the government ever gets adoption right, it's not because they're doing
                it right--it's just because there inherently are some good people in the
                system and they will randomly come together. If you ever believe that the
                government adoption system works well, then I advise you to remember that
                this is the same government that takes credit for inventing the internet,
                boosting the economy, and they would probably take credit for the second
                coming of Christ if it happened.

                "Hehehehe. That was really neat, wasn't it? That whole second coming of
                Christ thing? If you want to have that happen again, just vote for us and
                give us more tax money. We'll make it happen again. See how great the
                world is when we're in control?"

                Steven
                +++ATHZ

                ----Original Message Follows----
                From: "James S. Rustad" <jsrustad@...>
                Reply-To: lpwi@egroups.com
                To: lpwi@egroups.com
                Subject: Re: [LPWI] abortion?
                Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:46:29 -0500

                Steven Maximilln wrote:

                > Pro-Lifers argue the merits of adoption programs. Adoption is just as
                much
                > of a government regulated industry as any other. Adopted children are
                > thrown into a system that seeks to match them with the parent that has
                the
                > most available money (or best qualifies for government assistance and
                > subsidy). New, scared mothers are plagued with media sensationalized
                > stories of children who, 20 years later, want to find their biological
                > mother. These movies play on the consciences and guilt of young mothers
                > that are already emotionally distraught or who may even by a bit
                > psychologically imbalanced (don't *anyone* dispute a woman's right to be
                a
                > tad bit psycho during pregnancy). How many made-for-TV movies illustrate
                an
                > adopted child who is grateful for being given a chance to escape the
                throes
                > of an unhappy upbringing? "Adopted" is a word that's whispered behind
                > hands, a family secret, a problem that develops into a neurosis as a
                child
                > realizes that parents aren't really "parents". There's a social stigma
                on
                > the entire adoption system... and this is the option that pro-lifers
                invoke.
                > Sheep--baaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!

                In the past I've read your emails and been somewhat offended by them
                (didn't even matter whether I agreed with you or not). This one sinks
                to a new low.

                Perhaps you'd be willing to point out the scientifically valid studies
                that show that people who were adopted as children are all neurotic (or
                even more neurotic than other people who got equivalent starts in life)?

                There are indeed big problems with adoptions -- like all other things
                government has become so deeply involved in. However, your statements
                about what adoption "is" are about as offensive as can be. They lead me
                to wonder if the intent of your arguements are to convince people or
                drive them away. If the second, you're coming close to success since
                I'm nearly ready to quit reading anything with your name on it.


                --
                "In the beginning of a change, The Patriot is a scarce man, brave,
                hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join
                him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain
                (RIP Peter McWilliams)
                James S. Rustad LPWI NRA Life

                _________________________________________________________________________
                Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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                http://profiles.msn.com
              • Steven Maximilln
                Both of you took my post out of context (that s what happens when you lag a few days). That s just bad debating style. I don t want to argue with people or
                Message 7 of 30 , Oct 15, 2000
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                  Both of you took my post out of context (that's what happens when you lag a
                  few days). That's just bad debating style. I don't want to argue with
                  people or offend them (no really, I actually would prefer shooting the shit
                  with all of you while watching a Packer game in a perfect Libertarian
                  society). It's difficult to stay out of frivolous arguments when people are
                  selectively listening and picking out things to dispute, regardless of
                  context.

                  I was illustrating the effect that the media portrayal of the adoption
                  system has on mothers who may be considering a birth/abortion choice. If
                  you want to argue the merits of the government adoption system, then start a
                  new thread and lets get all the facts straight.

                  Where did I ever say that adopted children all grow up to be neurotic
                  mass-murderers? What I said was that the media portrayal of the adoption
                  system, coupled with societies' stigmas about it, are a host of red tape out
                  the ass to scare mothers away from it. If they're scared away from adoption
                  and morally beaten away from abortion, then the government doesn't ever have
                  to get involved in the issue that they've created, do they? As far as the
                  General Accounting Office is concerned, this is a good thing. I guarantee
                  you that the GAO would probably like to see the government adoption system
                  go away--it's probably not too profitable. It's great PR, though.

                  To specifically address this:

                  Cody, your e-mail perfectly illustrates something that I've been advocating
                  all along: open and honest communication is the best solution to any
                  problem. Everyone knows of your situation, and therefore there's no
                  potential to develop a stigma or problem. If everyone is privy to the same
                  information, it's more difficult to form misconceptions.

                  Is this translating correctly, or have we been hit with a second "Tower of
                  Babel" phenomenon?

                  So do you think your experience of open and honest communcation in your
                  situation is the norm, or the exception? How about if correct this
                  pseudo-experiment for income? Parents who are financially better off are
                  more likely to have fostered healthy emotional situations (probably due to
                  less debt-induced stress, which is a *BIG* problem for most middle class and
                  lower families). Which kinds of families do you suppose most adopted
                  children come from and go into: is this a $50k+/year problem, or is it a
                  problem more for the sub-$30k/year families in the middle-lower to
                  middle-middle class neighborhoods?

                  I can find people who were significantly helped by the drug war. Being
                  arrested, thrown in jail, and forced to think about their lives may be about
                  the best thing that ever happened to them because it gave them the drive to
                  get up and do something. Does that mean that we should escalate the drug
                  war and slap everyone in prison? Is moral majority "tough love" the best
                  way to handle all problems? Does moral majority "tough love" justify a 13.6
                  cent on the tax dollar return in social programs?

                  Steven
                  +++ATHZ
                  "Welcome to AA. Everyone get up and say it: I'm an adoptee. That's right.
                  Don't we all feel better already?" :-)

                  PS. My condolences about the laws limiting your political career. In my
                  society, you'd be mayor already.

                  ----Original Message Follows----
                  From: "Cody Williams" <wms@...>
                  Reply-To: lpwi@egroups.com
                  To: <lpwi@egroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [LPWI] abortion?
                  Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:36:58 -0500

                  I agree. I, for one, am adopted. And as much as he might deny it, everyone
                  close to me and everyone at school knows it, and it's never been a big deal
                  at all. While I may be a bit crazy at times, I am certainly not neurotic.
                  He's done a wonderful job of offending and PO-ing ME.

                  Cody Williams,
                  Adoptee

                  >In the past I've read your emails and been somewhat offended by them
                  >(didn't even matter whether I agreed with you or not). This one sinks
                  >to a new low.
                  >
                  >Perhaps you'd be willing to point out the scientifically valid studies
                  >that show that people who were adopted as children are all neurotic (or
                  >even more neurotic than other people who got equivalent starts in life)?
                  >
                  >There are indeed big problems with adoptions -- like all other things
                  >government has become so deeply involved in. However, your statements
                  >about what adoption "is" are about as offensive as can be. They lead me
                  >to wonder if the intent of your arguements are to convince people or
                  >drive them away. If the second, you're coming close to success since
                  >I'm nearly ready to quit reading anything with your name on it.
                  >
                  >
                  >--
                  >"In the beginning of a change, The Patriot is a scarce man, brave,
                  >hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join
                  >him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain
                  >(RIP Peter McWilliams)
                  >James S. Rustad LPWI NRA Life
                  >
                  >
                  >IMPORTANT email addresses for this group:
                  >
                  > To post a message: lpwi@...
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe: lpwi-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  >To contact list owner: lpwi-owner@...
                  >
                  >http://www.egroups.com/group/lpwi/info.html
                  >
                  >


                  _________________________________________________________________________
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                • James S. Rustad
                  ... Actually, I read your post the day you sent it. I thought about it quite a bit before replying. Your response to Cody is much clearer than your original
                  Message 8 of 30 , Oct 15, 2000
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                    Steven Maximilln wrote:
                    >
                    > Both of you took my post out of context (that's what happens when you lag a
                    > few days). That's just bad debating style. I don't want to argue with
                    > people or offend them (no really, I actually would prefer shooting the shit
                    > with all of you while watching a Packer game in a perfect Libertarian
                    > society). It's difficult to stay out of frivolous arguments when people are
                    > selectively listening and picking out things to dispute, regardless of
                    > context.

                    Actually, I read your post the day you sent it. I thought about it
                    quite a bit before replying. Your response to Cody is much clearer than
                    your original post -- but I still wonder about your motivation in
                    posting to this list. Seems to me that you could do a much better job
                    if your motivation is to convince others.

                    > >They lead me
                    > >to wonder if the intent of your arguements are to convince people or
                    > >drive them away. If the second, you're coming close to success since
                    > >I'm nearly ready to quit reading anything with your name on it.

                    BTW, I was so deeply offended by your remarks because I'm sitting on the
                    flip side from where Cody is. Our son's adoption becomes finalized next
                    month.

                    --
                    "In the beginning of a change, The Patriot is a scarce man, brave,
                    hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join
                    him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain
                    (RIP Peter McWilliams)
                    James S. Rustad LPWI NRA Life
                  • James S. Rustad
                    Steven Maximilln wrote: Your latest post was much clearer than your original post. If your original post had been written in the same tone and said
                    Message 9 of 30 , Oct 15, 2000
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                      Steven Maximilln wrote:
                      <deleted>

                      Your latest post was much clearer than your original post. If your
                      original post had been written in the same tone and said things more
                      clearly, I wouldn't have been offended. I doubt that Cody would have
                      either.

                      Maybe that's the prescription you need to take away from this.


                      --
                      "In the beginning of a change, The Patriot is a scarce man, brave,
                      hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join
                      him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain
                      (RIP Peter McWilliams)
                      James S. Rustad LPWI NRA Life
                    • Steven Maximilln
                      ... BTW, I was so deeply offended by your remarks because I m sitting on the flip side from where Cody is. Our son s adoption becomes finalized next month.
                      Message 10 of 30 , Oct 15, 2000
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                        -----
                        BTW, I was so deeply offended by your remarks because I'm sitting on the
                        flip side from where Cody is. Our son's adoption becomes finalized next
                        month.
                        -----
                        James, I respect you on the very basic premise that by being a Libertarian,
                        that means that you think more than most people. Don't ever let anything I
                        say offend you personally. Even though you may be reading these e-mails
                        with no one else around, it's not specifically directed at you.

                        Don't ever let the government take credit when your adoptive situation going
                        well--be actively conscious of the things that *YOU* did well, and be
                        actively conscious of how little the government has actually helped (made
                        things happen in this adoption that wouldn't have happened otherwise). The
                        quality of your relationship with your son will be a product of your
                        intellect, morals, values, and how well you cooperate with your significant
                        other (I'm assuming that you're traditionally married. It doesn't matter).

                        Not to pry, but how much time and money has the adoption process cost you?
                        Don't you think that human beings could do this better and cheaper without
                        government oversight? To reiterate an earlier position: I'm not saying
                        that there aren't any good people that come out of the government adoption
                        system, but those people are randomly matched together by fate, not by the
                        government. If anything, the government effectively makes it more difficult
                        for the right people to get together. I applaud the fact that you waded
                        through it all.

                        Steven
                        +++ATHZ

                        ----Original Message Follows----
                        From: "James S. Rustad" <jsrustad@...>
                        Reply-To: lpwi@egroups.com
                        To: lpwi@egroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [LPWI] abortion?
                        Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:48:36 -0500

                        Steven Maximilln wrote:
                        >
                        > Both of you took my post out of context (that's what happens when you lag
                        a
                        > few days). That's just bad debating style. I don't want to argue with
                        > people or offend them (no really, I actually would prefer shooting the
                        shit
                        > with all of you while watching a Packer game in a perfect Libertarian
                        > society). It's difficult to stay out of frivolous arguments when people
                        are
                        > selectively listening and picking out things to dispute, regardless of
                        > context.

                        Actually, I read your post the day you sent it. I thought about it
                        quite a bit before replying. Your response to Cody is much clearer than
                        your original post -- but I still wonder about your motivation in
                        posting to this list. Seems to me that you could do a much better job
                        if your motivation is to convince others.

                        > >They lead me
                        > >to wonder if the intent of your arguements are to convince people or
                        > >drive them away. If the second, you're coming close to success since
                        > >I'm nearly ready to quit reading anything with your name on it.

                        BTW, I was so deeply offended by your remarks because I'm sitting on the
                        flip side from where Cody is. Our son's adoption becomes finalized next
                        month.

                        --
                        "In the beginning of a change, The Patriot is a scarce man, brave,
                        hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join
                        him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain
                        (RIP Peter McWilliams)
                        James S. Rustad LPWI NRA Life

                        _________________________________________________________________________
                        Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

                        Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
                        http://profiles.msn.com
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