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Re: [lowercase-sound] five-years old/broken water/guam

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  • James
    In message , Alexandra Hettergott writes ... however I learnt about the pythagoras
    Message 1 of 16 , May 1, 2000
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      In message <002a01bfb2f9$1f7dc440$d53bfac1@fti/Z4xMtM3>, Alexandra
      Hettergott <a.hettergott@...> writes
      >James <james@...> wrote :
      >>[...] The history of philosophy can be described as the history
      >>of *my* consciousness. For finding that Aristotle was a 2nd century
      >>fiction would not alter the ideas. Further I don't need any
      >empiricism -
      >>I could arrive at these thoughts completely independent of history.
      >Well, but from where do you know that a certain idea has been thought by
      >Aristotle (or others) already before... (and when) ? To know about (the
      >constancy, congruency in) some idea, and be it only for the sake of
      >comparison, it is necessary to, firstly, it being thought
      >(independently) by different thinkers throughout times (the asymptotic),
      >and secondly, both its actual contents and just the very circumstance of
      >it having been thought (and how, in which context etc.) being passed on.
      >The point is, and this is the very positive aspect in history (whether
      >philosophy
      >or something else), to learn and to profit from historical experience
      >(handed down)...
      however I learnt about the pythagoras triangle - and then that the
      megalithic builders used it some thousands of years before he was born.
      In reality knowledge is acquired in the now... history seems to provide
      a polemic - it thankfully has become only a subjective story -
      >
      >>[...] action and physical involvement are
      >>closely connected but are they necessary for each other
      >[...]
      >>How about quantum actions - I understand an electron before changing
      >>orbit virtually (not physically) *explores* all possible new orbits.
      >>Not physically but this virtual action can be detected?
      >Well, one might state that an action does become an (actual) "action"
      >only in the (real) concretization of (beyond) any purely theoretical
      >outline ; virtual actions by virtual actors (also in the sense of a
      >simulation) might represent a borderline case ; any (re)activity and
      >activation in a concrete sense might yet suppose a kind of ("physical")
      >involvement (even in chemical processes), whereas true "physicality"
      >might reach its end together with the ("physical") limits of this
      >discipline itself (so also quantum physics isn't "true (applied)
      >physics" any more), sort of reduction to infinity (3/3 /= 1) ; in the
      >opposite direction "action" might have something to do with
      >intentionality (and hence consciousness).
      It might be interesting to examine the chain of cause and effect in
      building a church - or the writing of a piece of liturgical music, where
      the basis might be something non-existent.
      >
      >>Nothing additional at all - but what is there is not physical - rather
      >>abstract. [...] the picture is produced by the objects but not of
      >them-
      >>but of their abstract organisation. There is nothing magical in this.
      >>The meaning is not carried by the electrical pulses - in this email -
      >>but by the arrangement of them. [...]
      >Well, the second aspect of "the whole" being more than the mere sum of
      >its single elements is well known and has been iterated also by little
      >me several times,
      I don't think I particularly want to say 'more' - in the sense that the
      picture only represents something to the perceiver - and then how is
      anything new added - Wittgenstein's case of teaching a child what *red*
      means - the child seems to have to already know *red* to apply it.
      > while "additional" is intended in the sense of
      >representing an "extra" -- hence a state or entity (still) "existent"
      >(though beyond consciousness), in some way, /independent/ from the
      >body --, whereas my point was/is that (living) "consciousness" is
      >connected to body-ness. (You won't say that the meaning of an email is
      >carried /without/ the corresponding electrical pulses (encoded and
      >transmitted), either...).
      What I'm saying is I see no reason that the email's message could be
      received non-phyiscally. This seems somewhat crazy - but if the
      understanding is a state (a) this can arise independently of any
      communication in which matter is involved. Our jigsaw puzzle in reality
      is both organised and disorganised - its only our prejudice that says
      what it is - which arises from the illusion of process - of time.
      >
      >>But its the formalism that allows us to cross cultural barriers -
      >Well, the fact of its being most easily to tackle should assume some
      >universality -- as it has been stated and described by concepts like,
      >e.g., the psychology of "gestalt"...
      or the relation of a circles circumference to its radius?
      >
      >>For me to limit music to biological/molecular phenomenon [...]
      >Nobody did "limit music to" something ; /but/ it doesn't exist either
      >without the molecules being stimulated and processed (even to imagine
      >music or to sight-read it from a given score does presuppose an adequate
      >initial experience, the one or other form of an auditory memory).
      A PIECE FOR ORCHESTRA
      Count all the stars of that night
      by heart
      The piece ends when all the orchestra
      members finish counting the stars, or
      when it dawns.
      This can be dine with windows instead
      of stars.

      Yoko Ono 1962 summer
      --
      James
    • Michael Anton Parker
      ... james idea makes perfect sense to me: the entire history of philosophy is truly a collection of subsets of human brain states over the yearS. however, it
      Message 2 of 16 , May 1, 2000
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        > From: "Alexandra Hettergott"<a.hettergott@...>
        > Subject: Re: five-years old/broken water/guam
        >
        > James <james@...> wrote :
        >
        > >Apart from raising the old question of events occurring outside of
        > >consciousness - the whole of philosophy - its history - could be
        > >regarded as a history of consciousness. Such a standpoint is quite
        > >liberating- certainly from any empirical data -
        >
        > But just when you are speaking of "history of philosophy" -- how is
        > doing history without any empirism... ? (Even in philosophy, or do you
        > have a direct link to Aristotle (his consciousness...) himself... ?)

        james' idea makes perfect sense to me: the entire history
        of philosophy is truly a collection of subsets of human
        brain states over the yearS. however, it may not be
        totally accurate to identify these subsets with the
        conscious subsets, although this does seem to be a
        reasonable first approximatioN. also, i don't
        feel liberated from empirical data because conscious
        brain states are as empirical as anything elsE.

        a 'direct link to Aristotle' is not necessary to
        make claims about his consciousnesS. we may know
        very little of his consciousness, but we can still
        say that, whatever it is, it is part of the history
        of philosophY. Furthermore, we can go on to use empirical evidence,
        like his writings or general knowledge of human
        brains, to make more claimS. ('making claims' is
        one of the chief businesses of humanS.)

        mp

        ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
        < <
        > "subete no OTO wa mu de aru." >
        < <
        ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
      • Alexandra Hettergott
        ... However, you did acquire some data ( learn sth ) in this matter (of fact). ... -- and this is why one does take empirical data into consideration... (also
        Message 3 of 16 , May 1, 2000
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          James <james@...> wrote :

          >however I learnt about the pythagoras triangle - and then that the
          >megalithic builders used it some thousands of years before he was born.
          However, you did acquire some data ("learn sth") in this matter (of
          fact).
          >In reality knowledge is acquired in the now...
          ...in referring to the past (empirical data handed down) ...
          >history seems to provide a polemic -
          >[...] only a subjective story -
          -- and this is why one does take empirical data into consideration...
          (also as to science history/theory) ; knowledge is asymptotic, and we do
          need the empirical data to prevent it from being entirely subjective...

          >Wittgenstein's case of teaching a child what *red*
          >means - the child seems to have to already know *red* to apply it.
          Yes, and the same applies to (experience contents of) the auditory
          memory... (e.g., vowel /a/ or the specific sound color of a clarinet).

          >understanding is a state (a) this can arise independently of any
          >communication in which matter is involved.
          -- any (subjective) understanding can happen in any way and at any
          time... -- yet not as regards a /specific/ communication content, which
          needs to adequately being en- and decoded, sent, transmitted and
          received... (in a technical sense, however, "communication" can be
          independent from "understanding" the communicated data).

          .....
          Alexandra Hettergott.

          _______________________
          Alexandra Hettergott
          1, avenue des Gobelins
          /boîte 23
          F-75005 Paris/France
          Tél/fax: +33-(0)1-43 31 41 27
          Mél: a.hettergott@...
          http://perso.wanadoo.fr/a.hettergott/

          ... la noche,
          pequeños ruidos
          ... sombra y espacio, tierra
          y tiempo,
          algo que corre y cae
          y pasa ...
          (Pablo Neruda)
        • James
          In message , Alexandra Hettergott writes ... If empirical data is used to prevent
          Message 4 of 16 , May 2, 2000
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            In message <006401bfb3c6$dfe53420$0bb58aa4@fti/Z4xMtM3>, Alexandra
            Hettergott <a.hettergott@...> writes

            ...

            >>[...] only a subjective story -
            >-- and this is why one does take empirical data into consideration...
            >(also as to science history/theory) ; knowledge is asymptotic, and we do
            >need the empirical data to prevent it from being entirely subjective...
            If empirical data is used to prevent knowledge being entirely
            subjective then its a case of force of numbers - of subjective opinions.
            There is nothing special about empirical data - well if anything that
            its open to refutation.
            >
            >>Wittgenstein's case of teaching a child what *red*
            >>means - the child seems to have to already know *red* to apply it.
            >Yes, and the same applies to (experience contents of) the auditory
            >memory... (e.g., vowel /a/ or the specific sound color of a clarinet).
            >
            >>understanding is a state (a) this can arise independently of any
            >>communication in which matter is involved.
            >-- any (subjective) understanding can happen in any way and at any
            >time... -- yet not as regards a /specific/ communication content, which
            >needs to adequately being en- and decoded, sent, transmitted and
            >received... (in a technical sense, however, "communication" can be
            >independent from "understanding" the communicated data).
            Two things here - first the need to trust any acknowledgement of
            communication - but more profoundly the causal time based process in
            itself is suspect.



            --
            James
          • Alexandra Hettergott
            ... Ridiculous ; the fact of six million dead Jews (imagine : six million consciousnesses having become extinct !) in context of the shoah -- only a subjective
            Message 5 of 16 , May 2, 2000
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              James <james@...> wrote :
              >>>[...] [history] only a subjective story -
              >subjective then its a case of force of numbers - of subjective
              >opinions.
              Ridiculous ; the fact of six million dead Jews (imagine : six million
              consciousnesses having become extinct !) in context of the shoah -- only
              a subjective story...?!
              >its open to refutation.
              refutation = revisionism ?
              .....
              Alexandra Hettergott.

              _______________________
              Alexandra Hettergott
              1, avenue des Gobelins
              /boîte 23
              F-75005 Paris/France
              Tél/fax: +33-(0)1-43 31 41 27
              Mél: a.hettergott@...
              http://perso.wanadoo.fr/a.hettergott/

              ... la noche,
              pequeños ruidos
              ... sombra y espacio, tierra
              y tiempo,
              algo que corre y cae
              y pasa ...
              (Pablo Neruda)
            • James
              In message , Alexandra Hettergott writes ... firstly (this) *history* began with hegelian
              Message 6 of 16 , May 2, 2000
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                In message <004701bfb46f$09581400$cbe48aa4@fti/Z4xMtM3>, Alexandra
                Hettergott <a.hettergott@...> writes
                >James <james@...> wrote :
                >>>>[...] [history] only a subjective story -
                >>subjective then its a case of force of numbers - of subjective
                >>opinions.
                >Ridiculous ; the fact of six million dead Jews (imagine : six million
                >consciousnesses having become extinct !) in context of the shoah -- only
                >a subjective story...?!
                firstly (this) *history* began with hegelian idealism - the source of
                the historical destiny of Germany...

                Secondly - to witness death subjectively - (god forbid) 2 + 2 becomes
                meaningless....
                --
                James
              • Alexandra Hettergott
                From: James ... Nonsense, the (hi)story of anti-Semitism did begin much earlier... -- And yet another couple of dates and data having
                Message 7 of 16 , May 2, 2000
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                  From: James <james@...>
                  >firstly (this) *history* began with hegelian idealism - the source of
                  >the historical destiny of Germany...
                  Nonsense, the (hi)story of anti-Semitism did begin much earlier...
                  -- And yet another couple of dates and data having been passed on to
                  consolidate the truth...
                  >Secondly - to witness death subjectively - (god forbid) 2 + 2 becomes
                  >meaningless....
                  Yet not with regard to the writing/handing down of history, the
                  incomprehensible monstrosity of the /fact/ itself, and the
                  necessity/opportunity for learning from it for the future...
                  .....
                  Alexandra Hettergott.
                • James
                  In message , Alexandra Hettergott writes ... I think you missed my point here - it was
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 3, 2000
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                    In message <009501bfb481$d4ac3660$cbe48aa4@fti/Z4xMtM3>, Alexandra
                    Hettergott <a.hettergott@...> writes
                    >From: James <james@...>
                    >>firstly (this) *history* began with hegelian idealism - the source of
                    >>the historical destiny of Germany...
                    >Nonsense, the (hi)story of anti-Semitism did begin much earlier...
                    >-- And yet another couple of dates and data having been passed on to
                    >consolidate the truth...
                    I think you missed my point here - it was late and I'm obviously a poor
                    communicator- what I was trying to offer was the *concept of history*
                    and with it a *nations* destiny can be traced to Hegel (and others) -
                    "World history advanced through the categories from Pure Being in
                    China... to the Absolute Idea , which seems to have been nearly , if
                    not quite realized in the Prussian State." As Hegel states "The German
                    spirit is the spirit of the new world. Its aim is the realization of
                    absolute Truth...." & "The state is the Idea of Sprit ......the reality
                    of the moral idea" Racism has and probably will always be around - it's
                    a subjective phenomenon that in the case of Hegel was used to
                    manufacture credence for an absolute belief in the Historical destiny
                    and morality of the German Nation. Without such an objective concept it
                    would be difficult to see how the carnage of 1914 through to 1945 could
                    have occurred. But this is not just a German phenomenon - Something
                    similar - allowed Stalin to kill upwards of 8 million of his own people
                    - again for a grand objective Idea. - the very notion of something
                    greater than a subjective self worth dying for - worth killing for. (A
                    cornerstone of the British Empire) It's only when we remove this myth of
                    objective truth that we can see the truth- "my god forgive them for they
                    know not what they do".

                    >>Secondly - to witness death subjectively - (god forbid) 2 + 2 becomes
                    >>meaningless....
                    >Yet not with regard to the writing/handing down of history, the
                    >incomprehensible monstrosity of the /fact/ itself, and the
                    >necessity/opportunity for learning from it for the future...

                    If we can learn - history as shown above does not provide us with
                    morality but can legitimise vast slaughter.


                    --
                    James
                  • Alexandra Hettergott
                    From: James ... No, I don t think that I did miss something (being German by origin, I m quite aware of this story), yet I insist
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 3, 2000
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                      From: James <james@...>
                      >Racism has and probably will always be around - it's
                      >a subjective phenomenon that in the case of Hegel was used to
                      >manufacture credence for an absolute belief in the Historical destiny
                      >and morality of the German Nation.
                      No, I don't think that I did miss something (being German by origin, I'm
                      quite aware of this story), yet I insist that pogroms did
                      (unfortunately) occur also far before this period of this "idea of a
                      spirit of a new world" (while the same should apply to any colonialism,
                      though...) -- you won't say that their "reason" of being was of
                      irrelevance in this context, either (even the pope did meanwhile account
                      for...).

                      >If we can learn - history as shown above does not provide us with
                      >morality but can legitimise vast slaughter.

                      This (morality) is, however, what we can (at least) ideally derive from
                      it, in the spirit of a (more) human(-like) humanism, and a further
                      reason why it is better to take history into account, while any (giving
                      way to) falling into oblivion might also give rise to imposing new
                      (unfortunate) "utopies", though...
                      .....
                      Alexandra Hettergott.

                      _______________________
                      Alexandra Hettergott
                      1, avenue des Gobelins
                      /boîte 23
                      F-75005 Paris/France
                      Tél/fax: +33-(0)1-43 31 41 27
                      Mél: a.hettergott@...
                      http://perso.wanadoo.fr/a.hettergott/

                      ... la noche,
                      pequeños ruidos
                      ... sombra y espacio, tierra
                      y tiempo,
                      algo que corre y cae
                      y pasa ...
                      (Pablo Neruda)
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