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Re: << lovingpurelove >> Reply to Pain & Anger

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  • Susan Manning
    Hello Nachi and All, I would think that most of us are bothered, saddened and, in some cases, torn apart by news of happenings such as you reported. Every
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 26, 2004
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      Hello Nachi and All,
      I would think that most of us are bothered, saddened and, in some
      cases, torn apart by news of happenings such as you reported. Every
      story of every human being or any tortured life is just as heart
      wrenching as any other to someone. There are more stories than we have
      time to hear and it becomes totally frustrating when we are unable to
      actually do anything about any of them. It then becomes emotionally
      draining when we try, and when we are emotionally drained we cannot do
      anything to help anyone.

      Gaele put it so well: "The pain of your story, for me, is in the
      helplessness of knowing and doing what???
      We can 'waffle' on cause, karma, the unjustness and on and on - but
      what help do we really give for their physical well being. We may
      through our actions of love and healing prayers ease some of the burden
      for their spirit but the physical pain is still endured by the child -
      to carry scars forever on their soul."

      I would want to say, Nachi, that I would caution you in regard to your
      statements: "I can understand parents selling their kids for paltry
      sum or Rs 500/-. It doesnt shock me as there are more worse and shocking
      things happening in this world. Like sexually abusing a child. I can
      never forgive a rape or even molestation..but I can atleast see the
      contortions of thoughts behind raping a adult woman. but raping is a
      child..or to view a child as an object is something really sick." I
      understand you are not condoning rape or abuse, but my caution would be
      with making rape of a child worse than that of an adult woman. There is
      no 'worse' when it comes to rape or sexual abuse. It is all horrible;
      the same degree of horrible-ness.

      And I believe that Karma and God are totally misunderstood by human
      beings who need to put things into categories. We probably understand a
      little about what Karma actually is and I do not believe it is 'tit for
      tat' at all. I also do not believe that we can put blame or kudos on
      God, because we, human beings, are the ones making the choices to live
      our lives and learn along this amazing path toward Love. We cannot
      blame God for those bad things in the world, yet I do not believe we can
      fully understand or explain how these things happen...we just use Karma
      and God. It's easier.

      I believe that as long as we move ever closer to unconditional Love in
      this life and share that with everyone we know and come in contact with,
      that may be all that we can do. We are not here to save the world, but
      I do believe that we can use, as Gaele said, our love and healing
      prayers whenever we are unable to make a difference physically and in
      real time. I work at getting out of those sad feelings as soon as I am
      emotionally able because it takes away from the time when I can send the
      unconditional love, white and golden healing light and energies, and
      Peace-filled energies to these people and situations.

      Perhaps reading some of Tich Nat Han could help you to put some of
      these thoughts into a different space for yourself. He is quite amazing
      in how he presents and think things through. Check him out on the
      internet to see if you like his way. As I read your posts, I have a
      strong feeling that your thinking is much aligned with his and he may
      put your thoughts to more ease.

      Namaste,
      Susan


      >>> nachi@... 8/26/2004 7:13:04 AM >>>
      Dear Gaele,

      Namaste,

      As I am replying to your message and that of Savitrica & Patti..there
      have been fresh cases of suicides by the farmers in my state..due to
      sheer Indifference shown by the Govt, the poverty, huge debts that they
      the farmers had taken..also a Missionary running many Shelters for Child
      abuse is being wanted by the Indian Police for the crime of child abuse
      that HE has committed by sexually abusing many boys in a shelter house
      which was meant and created for their protection. He is hiding in
      Tanzania doing the same shameful acts there with the Tanzaian kids.

      What I can say to that? Inspite of that all that happening Today I am
      looking at the Gifts, Blessings, Love, Beauty Today.

      I had a hard time as a child..and whenever I used to get some time for
      joy, to celebrate one moment of life..I used to do it as my
      Responsibility. Yes..Being Joyous and in Love is not a Right its an
      responsibiity towards myself and all those who are suffering in pain.

      Atleast thats the way I am looking it now.

      Your posts and the sharings that Patti and others have shared have been
      a help in finding Love in todays moments.

      **

      Patti...I can understand parents selling their kids for paltry sum or
      Rs 500/-. It doesnt shock me as there are more worse and shocking things
      happening in this world. Like sexually abusing a child. I can never
      forgive a rape or even molestation..but I can atleast see the
      contortions of thoughts behind raping a adult woman. but raping is a
      child..or to view a child as an object is something really sick.

      I do not know what is the Path that would give some respite in the
      prostitutes lives but God willing I am going to make some direct
      contribution to their cause, mission of rebuilding their lives in any
      way that I can.

      **

      Savitrica...I do not understand the Law of Karma. It doesnt answer all
      the questions. Whenever someone says 'law of Karma'..I feel like God is
      saying, "Sorry about the suffering and hell in your life..but thats your
      bad karma" How can God shut the door like that is beyond me. And what is
      the path of restoring ones Good Karma..its in doing picous acts and
      singing in praise of God. So say the Holy Books. Does God has Ego? to
      ask for such validation?
      There no sinner..and no price to pay.

      I think its upto us to keep the intensity of their pain, suffering
      alive by sheding tears, feeling their plight in our heart and by sending
      love,blessings, prayers.

      With Love,

      Nachi
    • nachiketan
      Dear Susan, Namaste, I dont know what to say anymore on this issue. I however completely agree with you that there can be no comparing of pain, abuse. It was
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 28, 2004
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        Dear Susan,
         
        Namaste,
         
        I dont know what to say anymore on this issue. I however completely agree with you that there can be no comparing of pain, abuse. It was just silly of me to have said that.
         
        Thank You Susan for these words as they are very comforting to my soul. I have read messages from Thinch Nat. I dont have it with me now so will be finding them again.
         
        Blaming God..Susan..you get most angry with someone you love most dearly. I sometimes curse God or cry in pain over my life or lives of others..I understand unconditional Love but I do not know how much do I have it in me..in what limits. Sometimes I find my wholeness in whole other times in parts.
         
        *
         
        Savitrica. I have read Gita. I feel that for spirituality to exist in anyones life..there should be enough of 'life' left in the person..not in amounts of days or years left with that person but in having meet the basic needs of life. I wouldnt think God intended us to share Gita or Bible with someone who hasnt eaten for 3 days. For a poor Bible is in the Bread.
         
        Saint Dynaeshwars father went on to be a Sanynasi. He gave up the physical world to be with the spiritual world..even though he was married and was having 5 kids..when he went to his Guru..His guru told him that spirtuality is not in giving up one life for another..but in embracing spirituality as wholeness and so he returned to his family.
        one interesting thing that people dont talk of is that spirituality is not in excluding physical world. Gautam was a Prince..Krishna..Mahavir were Prince...unless and until a human being finds wholesomeness in physical world..he can not enter in spiritual world is what I feel. Like finding unlimitedness in limits. How does one do that? Its in honouring the needs of physical world. A person who hasnt slept for 4 nights can only think of sleep. Let him sleep and then he will find God. Discontentful wo/man must find content first to enter into spirtual world. So it boils down to finding answers to hunger, pain, abuse, violence..by means of Love..by everyone of us.
         
        Prostitutes are Gods most loving  and loyal servants (and they do much more than all of our preachers do)..for the cleanse the world.
         
        For me the answers doesnt lie in knowing the reality of Law of karma and the Gunas and the Gana(we all are divided in 3 Ganas.) Its in empowering these Prostitutes by giving them every right to breathe life..by meeting their needs..by cleaning the world by doing anything and everything to eradicate this social disease from our world.
         
         
         
        Thank Gaele, Savitrica, Susan, Patti & Everyone who felt for this in their Heart.
         
        God Bless You All,
         
        Love & Hugs,
         
         
        Nachi
         
         
         
         
         
      • savitrica
        Dear Nachi, I applaud your thoughtfulness & feelings for the downtrodden & poor. I fully agree that basic physical needs required to be fulfilled before
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 31, 2004
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          Dear Nachi,

          I applaud your thoughtfulness & feelings for the downtrodden & poor.
          I fully agree that basic physical needs required to be fulfilled
          before learning spirituality.

          I talked about Geeta not for those poor or prostitutes but for you.
          Moreover, I believe that these poor & downtrodden people dont need
          just food & sleep. Thats just a physical need and even to satiate
          their physical needs they need inner strength to stand up for
          themselves and live a fulfilled and graceful life.

          Isnt it better to make them strong so that they can earn their bread
          themselves and live fearlessly than to provide them bread every day?
          I know many handicapped people who live graciously even after losing
          their hands/feet on the other hand we see some very sturdy people
          begging for their livings.

          I think, emotional and spiritual strength is more important and
          subtle than physical strength. We can provide physical help for a
          limited period of time to anyone but once a person learns the
          techniques of facing life, he/she no more needs outside help.

          I believe poor need God's help and prayer more than others who have
          satisfied all their needs.

          Anyone's views on this issue are welcomed.

          With lots of pure love and peace

          Savitri


          --- In lovingpurelove@yahoogroups.com, "nachiketan" <nachi@H...>
          wrote:
          > Dear Susan,
          >
          > Namaste,
          >
          > I dont know what to say anymore on this issue. I however
          completely agree with you that there can be no comparing of pain,
          abuse. It was just silly of me to have said that.
          >
          > Thank You Susan for these words as they are very comforting to my
          soul. I have read messages from Thinch Nat. I dont have it with me
          now so will be finding them again.
          >
          > Blaming God..Susan..you get most angry with someone you love most
          dearly. I sometimes curse God or cry in pain over my life or lives
          of others..I understand unconditional Love but I do not know how
          much do I have it in me..in what limits. Sometimes I find my
          wholeness in whole other times in parts.
          >
          > *
          >
          > Savitrica. I have read Gita. I feel that for spirituality to exist
          in anyones life..there should be enough of 'life' left in the
          person..not in amounts of days or years left with that person but in
          having meet the basic needs of life. I wouldnt think God intended us
          to share Gita or Bible with someone who hasnt eaten for 3 days. For
          a poor Bible is in the Bread.
          >
          > Saint Dynaeshwars father went on to be a Sanynasi. He gave up the
          physical world to be with the spiritual world..even though he was
          married and was having 5 kids..when he went to his Guru..His guru
          told him that spirtuality is not in giving up one life for
          another..but in embracing spirituality as wholeness and so he
          returned to his family.
          > one interesting thing that people dont talk of is that
          spirituality is not in excluding physical world. Gautam was a
          Prince..Krishna..Mahavir were Prince...unless and until a human
          being finds wholesomeness in physical world..he can not enter in
          spiritual world is what I feel. Like finding unlimitedness in
          limits. How does one do that? Its in honouring the needs of physical
          world. A person who hasnt slept for 4 nights can only think of
          sleep. Let him sleep and then he will find God. Discontentful wo/man
          must find content first to enter into spirtual world. So it boils
          down to finding answers to hunger, pain, abuse, violence..by means
          of Love..by everyone of us.
          >
          > Prostitutes are Gods most loving and loyal servants (and they do
          much more than all of our preachers do)..for the cleanse the world.
          >
          > For me the answers doesnt lie in knowing the reality of Law of
          karma and the Gunas and the Gana(we all are divided in 3 Ganas.) Its
          in empowering these Prostitutes by giving them every right to
          breathe life..by meeting their needs..by cleaning the world by doing
          anything and everything to eradicate this social disease from our
          world.
          >
          >
          >
          > Thank Gaele, Savitrica, Susan, Patti & Everyone who felt for this
          in their Heart.
          >
          > God Bless You All,
          >
          > Love & Hugs,
          >
          >
          > Nachi
        • Polly
          Here is one more thought to add to this talk Nachi, Savitri, unless it s already been discussed, as I haven t had the chance to follow this straight through.
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 31, 2004
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            Here is one more thought to add to this talk Nachi, Savitri, unless it's
            already been discussed, as I haven't had the chance to follow this straight
            through. More than anything else, a person needs to consciously discover
            unfailing trust with the Source of Life so that they are renewed and
            refreshed by It, and know themselves as one with It. I believe this to be
            claiming our true identity. From that point, a person will create all that
            they need so that they are infinitely strong and satisfied in spirit. No
            one would consider them poor if they knew them. Environment plays a part,
            but people who know such ones usually see them as very strong and fulfilled,
            and usually end up drawing on their love, wisdom, strength, and support.

            I can't agree entirely with how Nachi has described the needs of food and
            sleep be met before we approach spirituality, although I can understand that
            thoughts of discomfort have potential to interfere with complete focus and
            devotion. I say I can't agree because there are many who have deprived
            themselves of any comforts in order to advance themselves into a more
            devoted state of being. Actually one of the benefits of pure fasting, or
            giving up all your belongings and surrendering your life to a completely new
            spiritual adventure.

            I agree though that parents should not abandon their children, having chosen
            the path of parenthood and responsibility to others, one should work with
            them into maturity before beginning a new adventure.

            Hope there are some truths here for others to ponder.

            Love, Polly


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "savitrica" <savitrica@...>
            To: <lovingpurelove@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 6:00 PM
            Subject: Re: << lovingpurelove >> Reply to Pain & Anger


            > Dear Nachi,
            >
            > I applaud your thoughtfulness & feelings for the downtrodden & poor.
            > I fully agree that basic physical needs required to be fulfilled
            > before learning spirituality.
            >
            > I talked about Geeta not for those poor or prostitutes but for you.
            > Moreover, I believe that these poor & downtrodden people dont need
            > just food & sleep. Thats just a physical need and even to satiate
            > their physical needs they need inner strength to stand up for
            > themselves and live a fulfilled and graceful life.
            >
            > Isnt it better to make them strong so that they can earn their bread
            > themselves and live fearlessly than to provide them bread every day?
            > I know many handicapped people who live graciously even after losing
            > their hands/feet on the other hand we see some very sturdy people
            > begging for their livings.
            >
            > I think, emotional and spiritual strength is more important and
            > subtle than physical strength. We can provide physical help for a
            > limited period of time to anyone but once a person learns the
            > techniques of facing life, he/she no more needs outside help.
            >
            > I believe poor need God's help and prayer more than others who have
            > satisfied all their needs.
            >
            > Anyone's views on this issue are welcomed.
            >
            > With lots of pure love and peace
            >
            > Savitri
            >
            >
            > --- In lovingpurelove@yahoogroups.com, "nachiketan" <nachi@H...>
            > wrote:
            > > Dear Susan,
            > >
            > > Namaste,
            > >
            > > I dont know what to say anymore on this issue. I however
            > completely agree with you that there can be no comparing of pain,
            > abuse. It was just silly of me to have said that.
            > >
            > > Thank You Susan for these words as they are very comforting to my
            > soul. I have read messages from Thinch Nat. I dont have it with me
            > now so will be finding them again.
            > >
            > > Blaming God..Susan..you get most angry with someone you love most
            > dearly. I sometimes curse God or cry in pain over my life or lives
            > of others..I understand unconditional Love but I do not know how
            > much do I have it in me..in what limits. Sometimes I find my
            > wholeness in whole other times in parts.
            > >
            > > *
            > >
            > > Savitrica. I have read Gita. I feel that for spirituality to exist
            > in anyones life..there should be enough of 'life' left in the
            > person..not in amounts of days or years left with that person but in
            > having meet the basic needs of life. I wouldnt think God intended us
            > to share Gita or Bible with someone who hasnt eaten for 3 days. For
            > a poor Bible is in the Bread.
            > >
            > > Saint Dynaeshwars father went on to be a Sanynasi. He gave up the
            > physical world to be with the spiritual world..even though he was
            > married and was having 5 kids..when he went to his Guru..His guru
            > told him that spirtuality is not in giving up one life for
            > another..but in embracing spirituality as wholeness and so he
            > returned to his family.
            > > one interesting thing that people dont talk of is that
            > spirituality is not in excluding physical world. Gautam was a
            > Prince..Krishna..Mahavir were Prince...unless and until a human
            > being finds wholesomeness in physical world..he can not enter in
            > spiritual world is what I feel. Like finding unlimitedness in
            > limits. How does one do that? Its in honouring the needs of physical
            > world. A person who hasnt slept for 4 nights can only think of
            > sleep. Let him sleep and then he will find God. Discontentful wo/man
            > must find content first to enter into spirtual world. So it boils
            > down to finding answers to hunger, pain, abuse, violence..by means
            > of Love..by everyone of us.
            > >
            > > Prostitutes are Gods most loving and loyal servants (and they do
            > much more than all of our preachers do)..for the cleanse the world.
            > >
            > > For me the answers doesnt lie in knowing the reality of Law of
            > karma and the Gunas and the Gana(we all are divided in 3 Ganas.) Its
            > in empowering these Prostitutes by giving them every right to
            > breathe life..by meeting their needs..by cleaning the world by doing
            > anything and everything to eradicate this social disease from our
            > world.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Thank Gaele, Savitrica, Susan, Patti & Everyone who felt for this
            > in their Heart.
            > >
            > > God Bless You All,
            > >
            > > Love & Hugs,
            > >
            > >
            > > Nachi
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Posting message to this list:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lovingpurelove
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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