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Re: [loopantennas] Digest Number 2249

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  • Judi Black_Lake
    Complete STR-K700 service manual with schematics uploaded to the files. Yes indeed the IF frequency is 450 KHz also the receiver is sealed RF unit similar to
    Message 1 of 1 , May 6 1:48 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Complete STR-K700 service manual with schematics uploaded to the files.

      Yes indeed the IF frequency is 450 KHz also the receiver is sealed RF unit similar to TV unit.


      _______________________________________________________________________
      1a. Re: WWVB question
          Posted by: "heavenzgoat" hikeofyourlife@... hikeofyourlife
          Date: Fri May 3, 2013 7:33 am ((PDT))


      I'm along the Mex border between San Diego and Imperial counties. Even at a closer distance around 130 miles KFI still fades in and out and the time signal can be heard. I went back and very carefully listened to a recording I made a couple nights ago. I hear tones (not ticks) up to 15 seconds till and then ticks till the minute tone. Finally 12 minutes into the recording I heard the male WWV voice (it's hard to pick out with KFI being a talk station). So, it's clearly WWV, just trying to figure out what it's doing on 640 kHz, I haven't been able to find out anything from the receiver's user or service manuals (it's a Sony STR-K700). BTW I listen to KFI because the San Diego stations don't come in here at night.

      Vince

      --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, Jay Heyl <yahoogroups@...> wrote:
      >
      > On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:47 PM, heavenzgoat <hikeofyourlife@...>wrote:

      > > Here's my question, do you know the math on this? I'm listening to KFI Los
      > > Angeles 640 kHz 9:30 p.m. and I clearly in the background can hear WWV,
      > > which is on 2.5, 5, 10, 15 and 20 mHz, and also WWVB at 60 kHz. Is WWVB
      > > what I'm hearing and how do the radio harmonics work out where I can hear
      > > it? The time station fades in and out but it's very clear when it's there
      > > under Tim Conway's voice.
      >
      >
      > Are you SURE it's WWV? Do you hear, "At the tone, the time will be...", or
      > are you just hearing ticks on the second? You didn't mention your location
      > so I have no idea if this makes any sense, but could it be Radio Reloj out
      > of Cuba? They do non-stop news in Spanish with ticks every second and "RR"
      > in Morse code at the top of every minute. Might that be what you're
      > hearing. Since you're getting KFI the Spanish might be very faint but the
      > ticks and Morse code might pop through. Unless you live near the WWV
      > transmitter and it's bleeding all over everything, I'm thinking Radio Reloj
      > is more likely.
      >
      >   -- Jay
      >

      Messages in this topic (12)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1b. Re: WWVB question
          Posted by: "W2XJ" w2xj@... rameuser
          Date: Fri May 3, 2013 8:11 am ((PDT))

      STR K700? That comes up as a 5.1 surround unit. Can you clarify the model?

      Sent from my iPad

      On May 3, 2013, at 10:33 AM, "heavenzgoat" <hikeofyourlife@...> wrote:

      >
      > I'm along the Mex border between San Diego and Imperial counties. Even at a closer distance around 130 miles KFI still fades in and out and the time signal can be heard. I went back and very carefully listened to a recording I made a couple nights ago. I hear tones (not ticks) up to 15 seconds till and then ticks till the minute tone. Finally 12 minutes into the recording I heard the male WWV voice (it's hard to pick out with KFI being a talk station). So, it's clearly WWV, just trying to figure out what it's doing on 640 kHz, I haven't been able to find out anything from the receiver's user or service manuals (it's a Sony STR-K700). BTW I listen to KFI because the San Diego stations don't come in here at night.
      >
      > Vince
      >





      Messages in this topic (12)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1c. Re: WWVB question
          Posted by: "Phil" ko6bb1@... ko6bb
          Date: Fri May 3, 2013 8:19 am ((PDT))

      Hi,
      It wouldn't be3 the fact that WWV is on 640KCs, but rather images from
      the higher frequency SW stations being heard.  Many (most) analog
      consumer grade receivers from years past had very poor front end
      selectivity and could pick up images in this way, especially if antennas
      other that the factory loop or loopstick are used, and there isn't a TRF
      (Tuned RF Amplifier) stage in the receiver.

        What's occurring is that the shortwave station is blowing right past
      the front end of the receiver and mixing with harmonics of the local
      oscillator in the receiver.  The LO of the typical analog receiver were
      often rich in harmonics and not as "clean" as the later PLL circuits of
      the more modern digital receivers.

      It would be difficult to determine which of the WWV signals you are
      hearing as that would be dependent on the IF frequency of the receiver
      (probably 455KCs making the "first image" to be heard on the radio
      1550KCs).  But I would suspect that it's probably either the WWV 2.5 or
      5 MCs signals as they would be strongest at night.

      As a side point, when I was a kid in the late '50s I used to listen to
      shortwave on an "All American 5" (5 tube AC/DC) receiver by putting a
      longwire antenna on the "Mixer grid" (Loop antenna connection) of the
      tuning capacitor.  It made for very tricky and fast tuning as the
      harmonics of the LO would tune faster than the main signal (if the LO
      were at 1600KCs and you tuned off by 1KCs, the 4th harmonic of the LO at
      6400KCs would shift by 4KCs.

      So, what is your answer?  I would recommend more front end selectivity. 
      That may be accomplished by building a small tunable pre-amp that tunes
      the BCB, between the antenna and the receiver. That should completely
      eliminate the problem,.  I have two such circuits on my web site,
      designed for longwave they work well at BCB frequencies with appropriate
      coils.

      See them here. . .
         http://www.qsl.net/ko6bb/homebrew.html

      --
      73 de Phil,  KO6BB
      http://www.qsl.net/ko6bb/  (Web Page)

      RADIOS:
      Grundigs:    S-350 (2006) &  G6 (2011).
      Icom:        R-75 Receiver with 250Hz CW Filter.
      Icom:        IC-735 Transceiver w 250 HZ CW filter (circa ~1990).
      Radio Shack: DX-380 digital portable (circa 1990).
      Zenith:      Royal-7000 Transoceanic (circa 1969).

      Decoder Software:  Gray-matter between two Mark 1 earholes.

      ACCESSORIES:  Homebrew LF-MF Pre-Amp, MFJ-949E HF Tuner
                     Homebrew 6 Hz Audio Filter.

      ANTENNAS:  88' Long Ladder-line fed dipole at 35 feet AGL.
                  Active Whip at 36 Feet AGL for LF/MW.
                  4 Foot/side Tuned Rotatable Loop at 15 Feet AGL for LF

      Merced, Central California, 37, 18, 37N   120, 30, 6W CM97rh

      On 5/3/2013 2:33 PM, heavenzgoat wrote:
      > I'm along the Mex border between San Diego and Imperial counties. Even at a closer distance around 130 miles KFI still fades in and out and the time signal can be heard. I went back and very carefully listened to a recording I made a couple nights ago. I hear tones (not ticks) up to 15 seconds till and then ticks till the minute tone. Finally 12 minutes into the recording I heard the male WWV voice (it's hard to pick out with KFI being a talk station). So, it's clearly WWV, just trying to figure out what it's doing on 640 kHz, I haven't been able to find out anything from the receiver's user or service manuals (it's a Sony STR-K700). BTW I listen to KFI because the San Diego stations don't come in here at night.
      >
      > Vince
      >






      Messages in this topic (12)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1d. Re: WWVB question
          Posted by: "Jack Smith" Jack.Smith@... k8zoa
          Date: Fri May 3, 2013 8:40 am ((PDT))

      Looked at the service manual for the STR-K700 but the tuner is shown
      only as a block, ID TN1, with no details.

      Some Japanese AM receivers use 450 KHz, not 455 KHz as the IF.  If that
      is the case then ...

      Tuned to 640 KHz, the local oscillator runs at 640 + 450 KHz = 1090 KHz.

      5th harmonic of the LO is 5450 KHz. This is *exactly* the frequency to
      receive WWV at 5 MHz, as 5.450 MHz - 5.000 MHz = 450 KHz.

      If the IF is at  455, the match fails. LO would be 1095 KHz and the 5th
      harmonic is 5475 KHz, so the difference frequency is then 5475 - 5000 =
      475 KHz. That's far enough away from the 455 KHz IF that the normal
      selectivity in the 455 KHz IF chain will not pass the WWV mix without
      major attenuation.

      So, my conjecture is:

      (a) the tuner uses a 450 KHz IF
      (b) 5th harmonic mix is occurring with WWV at 5 MHz.

      The fix for it would be a low pass filter at the tuner input, cutoff
      frequency 2 MHz or so.

      Jack K8ZOA

      On 5/3/2013 11:11 AM, W2XJ wrote:
      > STR K700? That comes up as a 5.1 surround unit. Can you clarify the model?
      >
      > Sent from my iPad
      >
      > On May 3, 2013, at 10:33 AM, "heavenzgoat" <hikeofyourlife@...
      > <mailto:hikeofyourlife@...>> wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> I'm along the Mex border between San Diego and Imperial counties.
      >> Even at a closer distance around 130 miles KFI still fades in and out
      >> and the time signal can be heard. I went back and very carefully
      >> listened to a recording I made a couple nights ago. I hear tones (not
      >> ticks) up to 15 seconds till and then ticks till the minute tone.
      >> Finally 12 minutes into the recording I heard the male WWV voice
      >> (it's hard to pick out with KFI being a talk station). So, it's
      >> clearly WWV, just trying to figure out what it's doing on 640 kHz, I
      >> haven't been able to find out anything from the receiver's user or
      >> service manuals (it's a Sony STR-K700). BTW I listen to KFI because
      >> the San Diego stations don't come in here at night.
      >>
      >> Vince
      >>
      >> --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
      >> <mailto:loopantennas%40yahoogroups.com>, Jay Heyl <yahoogroups@...>
      >> wrote:
      >> >
      >> > On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:47 PM, heavenzgoat <hikeofyourlife@...>wrote:
      >> >
      >> > > I found a discarded holder for TV dinner trays and thanks to this
      >> group I
      >> > > modified it to hold a box loop antenna, it's great because it has
      >> a nice
      >> > > handle on top to pick it up and turn it. Speaking of TV dinner, a
      >> > > non-functioning TV was the source for hundreds of feet of magnet
      >> wire and a
      >> > > burned up portable transistor radio provided the tuning cap so
      >> I'm into
      >> > > this for $0.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Excellent!
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > > Here's my question, do you know the math on this? I'm listening
      >> to KFI Los
      >> > > Angeles 640 kHz 9:30 p.m. and I clearly in the background can
      >> hear WWV,
      >> > > which is on 2.5, 5, 10, 15 and 20 mHz, and also WWVB at 60 kHz.
      >> Is WWVB
      >> > > what I'm hearing and how do the radio harmonics work out where I
      >> can hear
      >> > > it? The time station fades in and out but it's very clear when
      >> it's there
      >> > > under Tim Conway's voice.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Are you SURE it's WWV? Do you hear, "At the tone, the time will
      >> be...", or
      >> > are you just hearing ticks on the second? You didn't mention your
      >> location
      >> > so I have no idea if this makes any sense, but could it be Radio
      >> Reloj out
      >> > of Cuba? They do non-stop news in Spanish with ticks every second
      >> and "RR"
      >> > in Morse code at the top of every minute. Might that be what you're
      >> > hearing. Since you're getting KFI the Spanish might be very faint
      >> but the
      >> > ticks and Morse code might pop through. Unless you live near the WWV
      >> > transmitter and it's bleeding all over everything, I'm thinking
      >> Radio Reloj
      >> > is more likely.
      >> >
      >> > -- Jay
      >> >
      >>
      >





      Messages in this topic (12)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1e. Re: WWVB question
          Posted by: "sernstfortin" sernstfortin@... sernstfortin
          Date: Fri May 3, 2013 8:47 am ((PDT))

      I guess there is a bunch of stuff out there on Loop antennas, theory and formula - and designing for a certain resonance.

      I'd start here:
      http://earmark.net/gesr/loop/

      And there are these:
      http://electronbunker.ca/Loop_Antennas.html
      http://on2bbp.byze.be/projects/vlf-loop-antenna.php
      http://www.frontiernet.net/~jadale/Loop.htm
      http://www.vlf.it/octoloop/rlt-n4ywk.htm


      --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "heavenzgoat" <hikeofyourlife@...> wrote:
      >
      > I found a discarded holder for TV dinner trays and thanks to this group I modified it to hold a box loop antenna, it's great because it has a nice handle on top to pick it up and turn it. Speaking of TV dinner, a non-functioning TV was the source for hundreds of feet of magnet wire and a burned up portable transistor radio provided the tuning cap so I'm into this for $0. Another roll of old twisted pair telephone cable and I could put the antenna across the house away from the computer equipment where my Sony home stereo receiver also sits. It doesn't have an internal ferrite, only two speaker-wire type spring terminals.
      >
      > Here's my question, do you know the math on this? I'm listening to KFI Los Angeles 640 kHz 9:30 p.m. and I clearly in the background can hear WWV, which is on 2.5, 5, 10, 15 and 20 mHz, and also WWVB at 60 kHz. Is WWVB what I'm hearing and how do the radio harmonics work out where I can hear it? The time station fades in and out but it's very clear when it's there under Tim Conway's voice.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Vince
      >







      Messages in this topic (12)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1f. Re: WWVB question
          Posted by: "redsp" gnuarm.2006@... redsp
          Date: Fri May 3, 2013 8:51 am ((PDT))



      From the description you give, this is not WWVB, but may be one of the other WWV signals.  From an article in 1971 "Broadcast Engineering",

      "The WWV transmitters will remain at Fort Collins, Colorado, broadcasting on the same frequencies of 2.5, 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 MHz. Power output will not change from the present 10 kW on 5, 10, 15, and 20 MHz and 2.5 kW on the other frequencies."

      The article goes on to describe the ticks, tones and a once per minute voice announcement.  So I would guess it is the 2.5 MHz signal since that is the closest in frequency, but I couldn't say why you are hearing this at 640 kHz.  I assume the IF frequency is 455 kHz, no?  So figure out what the LO is and do a little math to see how many harmonics up the scale it would have to be to mix WWV down.  It doesn't look promising actually. 

      http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/479.pdf

      You can read more at wikipedia,

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWV_(radio_station)#Standard_frequency_signals

      Rick


      --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "heavenzgoat" <hikeofyourlife@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > I'm along the Mex border between San Diego and Imperial counties. Even at a closer distance around 130 miles KFI still fades in and out and the time signal can be heard. I went back and very carefully listened to a recording I made a couple nights ago. I hear tones (not ticks) up to 15 seconds till and then ticks till the minute tone. Finally 12 minutes into the recording I heard the male WWV voice (it's hard to pick out with KFI being a talk station). So, it's clearly WWV, just trying to figure out what it's doing on 640 kHz, I haven't been able to find out anything from the receiver's user or service manuals (it's a Sony STR-K700). BTW I listen to KFI because the San Diego stations don't come in here at night.
      >
      > Vince
      >
      > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, Jay Heyl <yahoogroups@> wrote:
      > >
      > > On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:47 PM, heavenzgoat <hikeofyourlife@>wrote:
      > >
      > > > I found a discarded holder for TV dinner trays and thanks to this group I
      > > > modified it to hold a box loop antenna, it's great because it has a nice
      > > > handle on top to pick it up and turn it. Speaking of TV dinner, a
      > > > non-functioning TV was the source for hundreds of feet of magnet wire and a
      > > > burned up portable transistor radio provided the tuning cap so I'm into
      > > > this for $0.
      > >
      > >
      > > Excellent!
      > >
      > >
      > > > Here's my question, do you know the math on this? I'm listening to KFI Los
      > > > Angeles 640 kHz 9:30 p.m. and I clearly in the background can hear WWV,
      > > > which is on 2.5, 5, 10, 15 and 20 mHz, and also WWVB at 60 kHz. Is WWVB
      > > > what I'm hearing and how do the radio harmonics work out where I can hear
      > > > it? The time station fades in and out but it's very clear when it's there
      > > > under Tim Conway's voice.
      > >
      > >
      > > Are you SURE it's WWV? Do you hear, "At the tone, the time will be...", or
      > > are you just hearing ticks on the second? You didn't mention your location
      > > so I have no idea if this makes any sense, but could it be Radio Reloj out
      > > of Cuba? They do non-stop news in Spanish with ticks every second and "RR"
      > > in Morse code at the top of every minute. Might that be what you're
      > > hearing. Since you're getting KFI the Spanish might be very faint but the
      > > ticks and Morse code might pop through. Unless you live near the WWV
      > > transmitter and it's bleeding all over everything, I'm thinking Radio Reloj
      > > is more likely.
      > >
      > >   -- Jay
      > >
      >






      Messages in this topic (12)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1g. Re: WWVB question
          Posted by: "John" JRTOW3RD@... jrtow3rd@...
          Date: Fri May 3, 2013 9:02 am ((PDT))


      Is your twisted pair telephone wire connected to a single turn of wire on your box loop and the variable capacitor connected only to the multiple turn 'loop'? If so, turning the capacitor should peak the KFI 640 kHz signal at some point, if the coil has something near the required inductance to resonate with the capacitor. I suspect you are using the telephone wire as a wire antenna - and possibly overloading the receiver's untuned front end at night, resulting in your local oscillator's harmonic content beating with WWV at 5 MHz (It works with a 450kHz Intermediate Frequency. With KFI 640 tuned, your local oscillator would be 450 kHz higher = 1,090 kHz. The fifth harmonic - 5,450 kHz - would beat against WWV at 5,000 kHz and pass through a 450 kHz IF. Some front end selectivity would help.).

      You might go to AMAZON and look up 'AM Tunable Loop Antenna'. You'll find the Kaito/Grundig AN-200 for ~$25 with free s/h, if you 'try' Prime membership. 'Super Saver' free s/h works, too - for over $25. You can connect the loop to the twisted pair inputs - and tune it when you change frequency. Not as good as 'free' parts, but it works.

      John
      --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "heavenzgoat" <hikeofyourlife@...> wrote:
      >
      > I found a discarded holder for TV dinner trays and thanks to this group I modified it to hold a box loop antenna, it's great because it has a nice handle on top to pick it up and turn it. Speaking of TV dinner, a non-functioning TV was the source for hundreds of feet of magnet wire and a burned up portable transistor radio provided the tuning cap so I'm into this for $0. Another roll of old twisted pair telephone cable and I could put the antenna across the house away from the computer equipment where my Sony home stereo receiver also sits. It doesn't have an internal ferrite, only two speaker-wire type spring terminals.
      >
      > Here's my question, do you know the math on this? I'm listening to KFI Los Angeles 640 kHz 9:30 p.m. and I clearly in the background can hear WWV, which is on 2.5, 5, 10, 15 and 20 mHz, and also WWVB at 60 kHz. Is WWVB what I'm hearing and how do the radio harmonics work out where I can hear it? The time station fades in and out but it's very clear when it's there under Tim Conway's voice.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Vince
      >







      Messages in this topic (12)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1h. Re: WWVB question
          Posted by: "vbifyz" 3ym3ym@... vbifyz
          Date: Fri May 3, 2013 11:18 am ((PDT))



      --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "John" <JRTOW3RD@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Is your twisted pair telephone wire connected to a single turn of wire on your box loop and the variable capacitor connected only to the multiple turn 'loop'? If so, turning the capacitor should peak the KFI 640 kHz signal at some point, if the coil has something near the required inductance to resonate with the capacitor. I suspect you are using the telephone wire as a wire antenna - and possibly overloading the receiver's untuned front end at night, resulting in your local oscillator's harmonic content beating with WWV at 5 MHz (It works with a 450kHz Intermediate Frequency. With KFI 640 tuned, your local oscillator would be 450 kHz higher = 1,090 kHz. The fifth harmonic - 5,450 kHz - would beat against WWV at 5,000 kHz and pass through a 450 kHz IF. Some front end selectivity would help.).
      >
      > You might go to AMAZON and look up 'AM Tunable Loop Antenna'. You'll find the Kaito/Grundig AN-200 for ~$25 with free s/h, if you 'try' Prime membership. 'Super Saver' free s/h works, too - for over $25. You can connect the loop to the twisted pair inputs - and tune it when you change frequency. Not as good as 'free' parts, but it works.
      >
      > John

      The tuned loop should provide enough selectivity.
      I think the problem is the twisted pair. If it is connected just in parallel to the capacitor on the antenna end, it destroys the selectivity by loading the circuit with the capacitance and losses of its own. So John's first question is important. The proper way to connect the feedline to the loop is to tap at 1 turn. You will see that the peaking is much sharper in this case, and the SW signals are suppressed much better.
      The pair itself also picks up signals from the air (unlike coax), bit it shouldn't be bad.

      73, Mike






      Messages in this topic (12)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1i. Re: WWVB question
          Posted by: "Jay Heyl" yahoogroups@... jheyl
          Date: Fri May 3, 2013 5:28 pm ((PDT))

      On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 7:33 AM, heavenzgoat <hikeofyourlife@...>wrote:

      >
      > I'm along the Mex border between San Diego and Imperial counties. Even at
      > a closer distance around 130 miles KFI still fades in and out and the time
      > signal can be heard. I went back and very carefully listened to a recording
      > I made a couple nights ago. I hear tones (not ticks) up to 15 seconds till
      > and then ticks till the minute tone. Finally 12 minutes into the recording
      > I heard the male WWV voice (it's hard to pick out with KFI being a talk
      > station). So, it's clearly WWV, just trying to figure out what it's doing
      > on 640 kHz, I haven't been able to find out anything from the receiver's
      > user or service manuals (it's a Sony STR-K700). BTW I listen to KFI because
      > the San Diego stations don't come in here at night.


      Yeah, that's definitely WWV. A little searching after posting that showed
      Radio Reloj doesn't appear to broadcast on 640 kHz anyway.

      I'm not all that far from you, but I've had great difficulty hearing WWV
      even when I'm trying and on the right frequency. You must be in the prime
      landing zone for one of the hops from the transmitter.

        -- Jay




      Messages in this topic (12)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________
      2. 9.5' Shielded Loop
          Posted by:  ve7sl@... cqer01
          Date: Fri May 3, 2013 4:29 pm ((PDT))

      Today I have added some new information to my LF Shielded Loop web page to show some pictures of the new 9.5' loop as well as the PCB pattern and parts placement which should make it easier to duplicate:

      http://members.shaw.ca/ve7sl/burhans.html


      Steve / VE7SL







      Messages in this topic (1)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________
      3. EZNEC and "shielded" receiving loops
          Posted by: "ad6zj" ad6zj@... ad6zj
          Date: Fri May 3, 2013 8:15 pm ((PDT))

      Hello,
      New to the group but not to antenna modeling. I use EZNEC 5.0
      One thing I have never figured out how to do is model a length of coax (as found in a "shielded" loop antenna. I know, it isn't really shielded . I scanned the posts and files areas but didn't find anything on the subject. If anyone has found a way to model coax I would sure like to hear about it.

      73
      AD6ZJ, Loren






      Messages in this topic (1)



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