Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: WWVB question

Expand Messages
  • John
    Is your twisted pair telephone wire connected to a single turn of wire on your box loop and the variable capacitor connected only to the multiple turn loop ?
    Message 1 of 17 , May 3, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Is your twisted pair telephone wire connected to a single turn of wire on your box loop and the variable capacitor connected only to the multiple turn 'loop'? If so, turning the capacitor should peak the KFI 640 kHz signal at some point, if the coil has something near the required inductance to resonate with the capacitor. I suspect you are using the telephone wire as a wire antenna - and possibly overloading the receiver's untuned front end at night, resulting in your local oscillator's harmonic content beating with WWV at 5 MHz (It works with a 450kHz Intermediate Frequency. With KFI 640 tuned, your local oscillator would be 450 kHz higher = 1,090 kHz. The fifth harmonic - 5,450 kHz - would beat against WWV at 5,000 kHz and pass through a 450 kHz IF. Some front end selectivity would help.).

      You might go to AMAZON and look up 'AM Tunable Loop Antenna'. You'll find the Kaito/Grundig AN-200 for ~$25 with free s/h, if you 'try' Prime membership. 'Super Saver' free s/h works, too - for over $25. You can connect the loop to the twisted pair inputs - and tune it when you change frequency. Not as good as 'free' parts, but it works.

      John
      --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "heavenzgoat" <hikeofyourlife@...> wrote:
      >
      > I found a discarded holder for TV dinner trays and thanks to this group I modified it to hold a box loop antenna, it's great because it has a nice handle on top to pick it up and turn it. Speaking of TV dinner, a non-functioning TV was the source for hundreds of feet of magnet wire and a burned up portable transistor radio provided the tuning cap so I'm into this for $0. Another roll of old twisted pair telephone cable and I could put the antenna across the house away from the computer equipment where my Sony home stereo receiver also sits. It doesn't have an internal ferrite, only two speaker-wire type spring terminals.
      >
      > Here's my question, do you know the math on this? I'm listening to KFI Los Angeles 640 kHz 9:30 p.m. and I clearly in the background can hear WWV, which is on 2.5, 5, 10, 15 and 20 mHz, and also WWVB at 60 kHz. Is WWVB what I'm hearing and how do the radio harmonics work out where I can hear it? The time station fades in and out but it's very clear when it's there under Tim Conway's voice.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Vince
      >
    • vbifyz
      ... The tuned loop should provide enough selectivity. I think the problem is the twisted pair. If it is connected just in parallel to the capacitor on the
      Message 2 of 17 , May 3, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "John" <JRTOW3RD@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Is your twisted pair telephone wire connected to a single turn of wire on your box loop and the variable capacitor connected only to the multiple turn 'loop'? If so, turning the capacitor should peak the KFI 640 kHz signal at some point, if the coil has something near the required inductance to resonate with the capacitor. I suspect you are using the telephone wire as a wire antenna - and possibly overloading the receiver's untuned front end at night, resulting in your local oscillator's harmonic content beating with WWV at 5 MHz (It works with a 450kHz Intermediate Frequency. With KFI 640 tuned, your local oscillator would be 450 kHz higher = 1,090 kHz. The fifth harmonic - 5,450 kHz - would beat against WWV at 5,000 kHz and pass through a 450 kHz IF. Some front end selectivity would help.).
        >
        > You might go to AMAZON and look up 'AM Tunable Loop Antenna'. You'll find the Kaito/Grundig AN-200 for ~$25 with free s/h, if you 'try' Prime membership. 'Super Saver' free s/h works, too - for over $25. You can connect the loop to the twisted pair inputs - and tune it when you change frequency. Not as good as 'free' parts, but it works.
        >
        > John

        The tuned loop should provide enough selectivity.
        I think the problem is the twisted pair. If it is connected just in parallel to the capacitor on the antenna end, it destroys the selectivity by loading the circuit with the capacitance and losses of its own. So John's first question is important. The proper way to connect the feedline to the loop is to tap at 1 turn. You will see that the peaking is much sharper in this case, and the SW signals are suppressed much better.
        The pair itself also picks up signals from the air (unlike coax), bit it shouldn't be bad.

        73, Mike
      • Jay Heyl
        ... Yeah, that s definitely WWV. A little searching after posting that showed Radio Reloj doesn t appear to broadcast on 640 kHz anyway. I m not all that far
        Message 3 of 17 , May 3, 2013
        • 0 Attachment

          On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 7:33 AM, heavenzgoat <hikeofyourlife@...> wrote:

          I'm along the Mex border between San Diego and Imperial counties. Even at a closer distance around 130 miles KFI still fades in and out and the time signal can be heard. I went back and very carefully listened to a recording I made a couple nights ago. I hear tones (not ticks) up to 15 seconds till and then ticks till the minute tone. Finally 12 minutes into the recording I heard the male WWV voice (it's hard to pick out with KFI being a talk station). So, it's clearly WWV, just trying to figure out what it's doing on 640 kHz, I haven't been able to find out anything from the receiver's user or service manuals (it's a Sony STR-K700). BTW I listen to KFI because the San Diego stations don't come in here at night.

          Yeah, that's definitely WWV. A little searching after posting that showed Radio Reloj doesn't appear to broadcast on 640 kHz anyway.

          I'm not all that far from you, but I've had great difficulty hearing WWV even when I'm trying and on the right frequency. You must be in the prime landing zone for one of the hops from the transmitter. 

            -- Jay 
        • heavenzgoat
          This is exactly what I was looking for, I figured it had to do with the IF and some harmonic but I haven t wrapped my brain around the maths part of it! WWV on
          Message 4 of 17 , May 4, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            This is exactly what I was looking for, I figured it had to do with the IF and some harmonic but I haven't wrapped my brain around the maths part of it! WWV on 5 mHz booms in here at night crystal clear, 2.5 not too good. This is a digital home stereo receiver with a great variety of inputs meant mainly for home theater and I'm sure AM radio is provided merely as a courtesy or afterthought. The included air core loop antenna is awful and meant only for local stations.

            --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, Jack Smith <Jack.Smith@...> wrote:
            >
            > Looked at the service manual for the STR-K700 but the tuner is shown
            > only as a block, ID TN1, with no details.
            >
            > Some Japanese AM receivers use 450 KHz, not 455 KHz as the IF. If that
            > is the case then ...
            >
            > Tuned to 640 KHz, the local oscillator runs at 640 + 450 KHz = 1090 KHz.
            >
            > 5th harmonic of the LO is 5450 KHz. This is *exactly* the frequency to
            > receive WWV at 5 MHz, as 5.450 MHz - 5.000 MHz = 450 KHz.
            >
            > If the IF is at 455, the match fails. LO would be 1095 KHz and the 5th
            > harmonic is 5475 KHz, so the difference frequency is then 5475 - 5000 =
            > 475 KHz. That's far enough away from the 455 KHz IF that the normal
            > selectivity in the 455 KHz IF chain will not pass the WWV mix without
            > major attenuation.
            >
            > So, my conjecture is:
            >
            > (a) the tuner uses a 450 KHz IF
            > (b) 5th harmonic mix is occurring with WWV at 5 MHz.
            >
            > The fix for it would be a low pass filter at the tuner input, cutoff
            > frequency 2 MHz or so.
            >
            > Jack K8ZOA
            >
            > On 5/3/2013 11:11 AM, W2XJ wrote:
            > > STR K700? That comes up as a 5.1 surround unit. Can you clarify the model?
            > >
            > > Sent from my iPad
            > >
            > > On May 3, 2013, at 10:33 AM, "heavenzgoat" <hikeofyourlife@...
            > > <mailto:hikeofyourlife@...>> wrote:
            > >
            > >>
            > >> I'm along the Mex border between San Diego and Imperial counties.
            > >> Even at a closer distance around 130 miles KFI still fades in and out
            > >> and the time signal can be heard. I went back and very carefully
            > >> listened to a recording I made a couple nights ago. I hear tones (not
            > >> ticks) up to 15 seconds till and then ticks till the minute tone.
            > >> Finally 12 minutes into the recording I heard the male WWV voice
            > >> (it's hard to pick out with KFI being a talk station). So, it's
            > >> clearly WWV, just trying to figure out what it's doing on 640 kHz, I
            > >> haven't been able to find out anything from the receiver's user or
            > >> service manuals (it's a Sony STR-K700). BTW I listen to KFI because
            > >> the San Diego stations don't come in here at night.
            > >>
            > >> Vince
            > >>
            > >> --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
            > >> <mailto:loopantennas%40yahoogroups.com>, Jay Heyl <yahoogroups@>
            > >> wrote:
            > >> >
            > >> > On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:47 PM, heavenzgoat <hikeofyourlife@>wrote:
            > >> >
            > >> > > I found a discarded holder for TV dinner trays and thanks to this
            > >> group I
            > >> > > modified it to hold a box loop antenna, it's great because it has
            > >> a nice
            > >> > > handle on top to pick it up and turn it. Speaking of TV dinner, a
            > >> > > non-functioning TV was the source for hundreds of feet of magnet
            > >> wire and a
            > >> > > burned up portable transistor radio provided the tuning cap so
            > >> I'm into
            > >> > > this for $0.
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > Excellent!
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > > Here's my question, do you know the math on this? I'm listening
            > >> to KFI Los
            > >> > > Angeles 640 kHz 9:30 p.m. and I clearly in the background can
            > >> hear WWV,
            > >> > > which is on 2.5, 5, 10, 15 and 20 mHz, and also WWVB at 60 kHz.
            > >> Is WWVB
            > >> > > what I'm hearing and how do the radio harmonics work out where I
            > >> can hear
            > >> > > it? The time station fades in and out but it's very clear when
            > >> it's there
            > >> > > under Tim Conway's voice.
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > Are you SURE it's WWV? Do you hear, "At the tone, the time will
            > >> be...", or
            > >> > are you just hearing ticks on the second? You didn't mention your
            > >> location
            > >> > so I have no idea if this makes any sense, but could it be Radio
            > >> Reloj out
            > >> > of Cuba? They do non-stop news in Spanish with ticks every second
            > >> and "RR"
            > >> > in Morse code at the top of every minute. Might that be what you're
            > >> > hearing. Since you're getting KFI the Spanish might be very faint
            > >> but the
            > >> > ticks and Morse code might pop through. Unless you live near the WWV
            > >> > transmitter and it's bleeding all over everything, I'm thinking
            > >> Radio Reloj
            > >> > is more likely.
            > >> >
            > >> > -- Jay
            > >> >
            > >>
            > >
            >
          • heavenzgoat
            The box loop I made is closed, with a separate one turn around the box hooked to the twisted pair running across the open beam in the living room and into the
            Message 5 of 17 , May 4, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              The box loop I made is closed, with a separate one turn around the box hooked to the twisted pair running across the open beam in the living room and into the computer/radio office. It's possible WWV at 5 mHz could be getting into that, it's a very strong signal here. Perhaps switching the feed line to coax would solve this. And like I said in another response, the AM radio part of this stereo system probably wasn't designed to have a nicer antenna than the nearly deaf one provided with the unit and I wouldn't be surprised that the front end is overwhelmed. Thanks for everyone's help, I consider the mystery solved!

              Vince


              --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "vbifyz" <3ym3ym@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "John" <JRTOW3RD@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Is your twisted pair telephone wire connected to a single turn of wire on your box loop and the variable capacitor connected only to the multiple turn 'loop'? If so, turning the capacitor should peak the KFI 640 kHz signal at some point, if the coil has something near the required inductance to resonate with the capacitor. I suspect you are using the telephone wire as a wire antenna - and possibly overloading the receiver's untuned front end at night, resulting in your local oscillator's harmonic content beating with WWV at 5 MHz (It works with a 450kHz Intermediate Frequency. With KFI 640 tuned, your local oscillator would be 450 kHz higher = 1,090 kHz. The fifth harmonic - 5,450 kHz - would beat against WWV at 5,000 kHz and pass through a 450 kHz IF. Some front end selectivity would help.).
              > >
              > > You might go to AMAZON and look up 'AM Tunable Loop Antenna'. You'll find the Kaito/Grundig AN-200 for ~$25 with free s/h, if you 'try' Prime membership. 'Super Saver' free s/h works, too - for over $25. You can connect the loop to the twisted pair inputs - and tune it when you change frequency. Not as good as 'free' parts, but it works.
              > >
              > > John
              >
              > The tuned loop should provide enough selectivity.
              > I think the problem is the twisted pair. If it is connected just in parallel to the capacitor on the antenna end, it destroys the selectivity by loading the circuit with the capacitance and losses of its own. So John's first question is important. The proper way to connect the feedline to the loop is to tap at 1 turn. You will see that the peaking is much sharper in this case, and the SW signals are suppressed much better.
              > The pair itself also picks up signals from the air (unlike coax), bit it shouldn't be bad.
              >
              > 73, Mike
              >
            • W2XJ
              I think you have got it. That radio is not really intended for DXing. It has too much antenna attached! Sent from my iPad
              Message 6 of 17 , May 4, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                I think you have got it. That radio is not really intended for DXing. It has too much antenna attached! 

                Sent from my iPad

                On May 4, 2013, at 10:35 AM, "heavenzgoat" <hikeofyourlife@...> wrote:

                 

                The box loop I made is closed, with a separate one turn around the box hooked to the twisted pair running across the open beam in the living room and into the computer/radio office. It's possible WWV at 5 mHz could be getting into that, it's a very strong signal here. Perhaps switching the feed line to coax would solve this. And like I said in another response, the AM radio part of this stereo system probably wasn't designed to have a nicer antenna than the nearly deaf one provided with the unit and I wouldn't be surprised that the front end is overwhelmed. Thanks for everyone's help, I consider the mystery solved!

                Vince

                --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "vbifyz" <3ym3ym@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "John" <JRTOW3RD@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Is your twisted pair telephone wire connected to a single turn of wire on your box loop and the variable capacitor connected only to the multiple turn 'loop'? If so, turning the capacitor should peak the KFI 640 kHz signal at some point, if the coil has something near the required inductance to resonate with the capacitor. I suspect you are using the telephone wire as a wire antenna - and possibly overloading the receiver's untuned front end at night, resulting in your local oscillator's harmonic content beating with WWV at 5 MHz (It works with a 450kHz Intermediate Frequency. With KFI 640 tuned, your local oscillator would be 450 kHz higher = 1,090 kHz. The fifth harmonic - 5,450 kHz - would beat against WWV at 5,000 kHz and pass through a 450 kHz IF. Some front end selectivity would help.).
                > >
                > > You might go to AMAZON and look up 'AM Tunable Loop Antenna'. You'll find the Kaito/Grundig AN-200 for ~$25 with free s/h, if you 'try' Prime membership. 'Super Saver' free s/h works, too - for over $25. You can connect the loop to the twisted pair inputs - and tune it when you change frequency. Not as good as 'free' parts, but it works.
                > >
                > > John
                >
                > The tuned loop should provide enough selectivity.
                > I think the problem is the twisted pair. If it is connected just in parallel to the capacitor on the antenna end, it destroys the selectivity by loading the circuit with the capacitance and losses of its own. So John's first question is important. The proper way to connect the feedline to the loop is to tap at 1 turn. You will see that the peaking is much sharper in this case, and the SW signals are suppressed much better.
                > The pair itself also picks up signals from the air (unlike coax), bit it shouldn't be bad.
                >
                > 73, Mike
                >

              • Andy
                ... Just FYI: WWV doesn t transmit at 5 mHz. But you probably meant 5 MHz. There s a world of difference between the two. Nine orders of magnitude, to be
                Message 7 of 17 , May 4, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  > It's possible WWV at 5 mHz could be getting into that ...

                  Just FYI: WWV doesn't transmit at 5 mHz. But you probably meant 5 MHz.

                  There's a world of difference between the two. Nine orders of
                  magnitude, to be exact. Lots of people don't seem to realize that.

                  Andy
                • Don
                  I have similar Sony receiver, the STR-D130. The AMBC is terrible except for very strong locals like KFI 640 with high power (50kW) or very close by. To
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 4, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I have "similar" Sony receiver, the STR-D130. The AMBC is terrible
                    except for very strong locals like KFI 640 with high power (50kW) or
                    very close by. To properly hear local KABC 790 (7kW) I had to krank the
                    volume way up to abut half way. So I stuffed a huge signal (IMHO) in
                    from an outside active vertical antenna. Then wrapped 24ft of 20ga wire
                    around that joke of a 4in x 4in plastic loop supplied to transfer the
                    signal. Direct wiring and other methods including coupling loops,
                    tunable loops I fooled around with didn't kut it. Still not good but a
                    cleaner signal - yeah, no AMDX machines are these Sony's. I would not
                    recommend these to anyone. I'm thinking of going back to my chinamart
                    review and changing it.

                    A better solution that I was going to use was an outboard receiver like
                    my Sony ICF 2010 and patch it into the front panel jack. Has
                    manufacturing consumer electronics products really gotten this cheapo?
                    You would think what used to be a good brand name like Sony with a cheap
                    manufacturing base one could make a terrific or at least a passable
                    radio for less, not just a terrible radio for less and lose any customer
                    base they used have. Also I know not many apparently listen to AMBC
                    anymore. Maybe that is what Sony thinks also?

                    Not a rant but a terrible section of an otherwise good product for the
                    price point IMHO.

                    Don KPC6NDB
                    Upland, CA
                    34.10 -117.63 1250ft
                    R-75 w/250Hz 2x R-71A w/250Hz R-70
                    Perseus SDR-IQ FUNcube Dongle Pro+
                    FRG-100B SR-AF & LPF DSP599zx
                    MFJ-784B HD-1418 AF-1 MSB-1
                    PA0RDT Mini-Whip x2 @ 25ft
                    RYO Active Antenna @ 25ft
                    LFL1010 ALA100L x2

                    On 04-May-13 07:27, heavenzgoat wrote:
                    > This is exactly what I was looking for, I figured it had to do with the IF and some harmonic but I haven't wrapped my brain around the maths part of it! WWV on 5 mHz booms in here at night crystal clear, 2.5 not too good. This is a digital home stereo receiver with a great variety of inputs meant mainly for home theater and I'm sure AM radio is provided merely as a courtesy or afterthought. The included air core loop antenna is awful and meant only for local stations.
                    >
                    > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, Jack Smith <Jack.Smith@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Looked at the service manual for the STR-K700 but the tuner is shown
                    >> only as a block, ID TN1, with no details.
                    >>
                    >> Some Japanese AM receivers use 450 KHz, not 455 KHz as the IF. If that
                    >> is the case then ...
                    >>
                    >> Tuned to 640 KHz, the local oscillator runs at 640 + 450 KHz = 1090 KHz.
                    >>
                    >> 5th harmonic of the LO is 5450 KHz. This is *exactly* the frequency to
                    >> receive WWV at 5 MHz, as 5.450 MHz - 5.000 MHz = 450 KHz.
                    >>
                    >> If the IF is at 455, the match fails. LO would be 1095 KHz and the 5th
                    >> harmonic is 5475 KHz, so the difference frequency is then 5475 - 5000 =
                    >> 475 KHz. That's far enough away from the 455 KHz IF that the normal
                    >> selectivity in the 455 KHz IF chain will not pass the WWV mix without
                    >> major attenuation.
                    >>
                    >> So, my conjecture is:
                    >>
                    >> (a) the tuner uses a 450 KHz IF
                    >> (b) 5th harmonic mix is occurring with WWV at 5 MHz.
                    >>
                    >> The fix for it would be a low pass filter at the tuner input, cutoff
                    >> frequency 2 MHz or so.
                    >>
                    >> Jack K8ZOA
                    >>
                    >> On 5/3/2013 11:11 AM, W2XJ wrote:
                    >>> STR K700? That comes up as a 5.1 surround unit. Can you clarify the model?
                    >>>
                    >>> Sent from my iPad
                    >>>
                    >>> On May 3, 2013, at 10:33 AM, "heavenzgoat" <hikeofyourlife@...
                    >>> <mailto:hikeofyourlife@...>> wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> I'm along the Mex border between San Diego and Imperial counties.
                    >>>> Even at a closer distance around 130 miles KFI still fades in and out
                    >>>> and the time signal can be heard. I went back and very carefully
                    >>>> listened to a recording I made a couple nights ago. I hear tones (not
                    >>>> ticks) up to 15 seconds till and then ticks till the minute tone.
                    >>>> Finally 12 minutes into the recording I heard the male WWV voice
                    >>>> (it's hard to pick out with KFI being a talk station). So, it's
                    >>>> clearly WWV, just trying to figure out what it's doing on 640 kHz, I
                    >>>> haven't been able to find out anything from the receiver's user or
                    >>>> service manuals (it's a Sony STR-K700). BTW I listen to KFI because
                    >>>> the San Diego stations don't come in here at night.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Vince
                    >>>>
                    >>>> --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                    >>>> <mailto:loopantennas%40yahoogroups.com>, Jay Heyl <yahoogroups@>
                    >>>> wrote:
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:47 PM, heavenzgoat <hikeofyourlife@>wrote:
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> I found a discarded holder for TV dinner trays and thanks to this
                    >>>> group I
                    >>>>>> modified it to hold a box loop antenna, it's great because it has
                    >>>> a nice
                    >>>>>> handle on top to pick it up and turn it. Speaking of TV dinner, a
                    >>>>>> non-functioning TV was the source for hundreds of feet of magnet
                    >>>> wire and a
                    >>>>>> burned up portable transistor radio provided the tuning cap so
                    >>>> I'm into
                    >>>>>> this for $0.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Excellent!
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>> Here's my question, do you know the math on this? I'm listening
                    >>>> to KFI Los
                    >>>>>> Angeles 640 kHz 9:30 p.m. and I clearly in the background can
                    >>>> hear WWV,
                    >>>>>> which is on 2.5, 5, 10, 15 and 20 mHz, and also WWVB at 60 kHz.
                    >>>> Is WWVB
                    >>>>>> what I'm hearing and how do the radio harmonics work out where I
                    >>>> can hear
                    >>>>>> it? The time station fades in and out but it's very clear when
                    >>>> it's there
                    >>>>>> under Tim Conway's voice.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Are you SURE it's WWV? Do you hear, "At the tone, the time will
                    >>>> be...", or
                    >>>>> are you just hearing ticks on the second? You didn't mention your
                    >>>> location
                    >>>>> so I have no idea if this makes any sense, but could it be Radio
                    >>>> Reloj out
                    >>>>> of Cuba? They do non-stop news in Spanish with ticks every second
                    >>>> and "RR"
                    >>>>> in Morse code at the top of every minute. Might that be what you're
                    >>>>> hearing. Since you're getting KFI the Spanish might be very faint
                    >>>> but the
                    >>>>> ticks and Morse code might pop through. Unless you live near the WWV
                    >>>>> transmitter and it's bleeding all over everything, I'm thinking
                    >>>> Radio Reloj
                    >>>>> is more likely.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> -- Jay
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links
                    >
                    > Post files here. If the file comes from a website, please put it in the Links rather than uploading the file.
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files
                    >
                    > You can now view images at higher resolution in Photos. Upload JPG and GIF into Photos. Please convert BMP or TIF to JPG or GIF before uploading.
                    > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/photos
                    >
                    > And please trim all this when replying!Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.