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Transmitting loop

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  • Danny
    Hi all I just wonder if I can use my four feet receving loop for transmit. The max power would be one watt maximum. I know that it s not a big power but it s
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 1, 2005
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      Hi all
      I just wonder if I can use my four feet receving loop for transmit. The
      max power would be one watt maximum. I know that it's not a big power
      but it's just for experimentation. Thanks for info.
      Danny
    • larry
      Do you have a ham licence?.. Larry ve3fxq ... From: Danny To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 8:48 AM Subject: [loopantennas]
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 1, 2005
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        Do you have a ham licence?..
        Larry ve3fxq


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Danny
        To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 8:48 AM
        Subject: [loopantennas] Transmitting loop


        Hi all
        I just wonder if I can use my four feet receving loop for transmit. The
        max power would be one watt maximum. I know that it's not a big power
        but it's just for experimentation. Thanks for info.
        Danny




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      • orion_radio_nederland
        I guess that s the wrong answer? You can use your antenna for transmitting. If the antenna construction is for the same transmitting freq. Of course take care
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 1, 2005
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          I guess that's the wrong answer? You can use your antenna for
          transmitting. If the antenna construction is for the same
          transmitting freq. Of course take care of the Standing wave.

          But without licence it is not allowed.

          John

          --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "larry" <larya@r...> wrote:
          > Do you have a ham licence?..
          > Larry ve3fxq
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Danny
          > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 8:48 AM
          > Subject: [loopantennas] Transmitting loop
          >
          >
          > Hi all
          > I just wonder if I can use my four feet receving loop for
          transmit. The
          > max power would be one watt maximum. I know that it's not a big
          power
          > but it's just for experimentation. Thanks for info.
          > Danny
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links
          >
          > For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos
          only allows everyone (except the uploader and moderators) to see a
          max of 300x400.
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files
          >
          > Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.
          >
          >
          >
          > -------------------------------------------------------------------
          -----------
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          >
          > a.. Visit your group "loopantennas" on the web.
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          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • vze3v8dt@verizon.net
          Not enough info given to solve that problem. Tell us more about your configuration. Important info is physical dimensions of the loop, diameter of the loop
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 1, 2005
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            Not enough info given to solve that problem. Tell us more about your configuration. Important info is physical dimensions of the loop, diameter of the loop conductor, frequency. The two things that would likely limit your ability to transmit would be the trimmer capacitor that you have needs to be rated for the fairly high voltage even at low power and the conductor size of the main loop needs to be very low loss (large diameter) for Tx in order to achieve reasonable efficiency.

            >From: Danny <dannibou@...>
            >Date: Mon Aug 01 07:48:31 CDT 2005
            >To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [loopantennas] Transmitting loop

            >Hi all
            >I just wonder if I can use my four feet receving loop for transmit. The
            >max power would be one watt maximum. I know that it's not a big power
            >but it's just for experimentation. Thanks for info.
            >Danny
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
            >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links
            >
            >For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only allows everyone (except the uploader and moderators) to see a max of 300x400.
            >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files
            >
            >Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Danny
            ... your configuration. Important info is physical dimensions of the loop, diameter of the loop conductor, frequency. The two things that would likely limit
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 1, 2005
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              --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, <vze3v8dt@v...> wrote:
              > Not enough info given to solve that problem. Tell us more about
              your configuration. Important info is physical dimensions of the
              loop, diameter of the loop conductor, frequency. The two things that
              would likely limit your ability to transmit would be the trimmer
              capacitor that you have needs to be rated for the fairly high voltage
              even at low power and the conductor size of the main loop needs to be
              very low loss (large diameter) for Tx in order to achieve reasonable
              efficiency.

              Hi
              It's a 4 feet loop wired with # 14 insulated wire 7 turns spaced 1/2
              inch. Without capacitor, it resonate at 1.8mhz. My transmitter has
              only 100mw and I have a 1 watt booster. My aim is to transmit about
              200 feet away, no more. May be I'll not need to use the booster. I
              have a variable capacitor which I salvaged from an old 3 watt CB. I
              just don't want to destroy my transmitter output transistor.
              Thanks
              Danny
            • dldorrance
              ... that ... voltage ... be ... Ok this setup might work. Be advised that you have big time losses in this loop, possibly on the order of 20 dB. For
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 1, 2005
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                --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Danny" <dannibou@y...> wrote:
                > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, <vze3v8dt@v...> wrote:
                > > Not enough info given to solve that problem. Tell us more about
                > your configuration. Important info is physical dimensions of the
                > loop, diameter of the loop conductor, frequency. The two things
                that
                > would likely limit your ability to transmit would be the trimmer
                > capacitor that you have needs to be rated for the fairly high
                voltage
                > even at low power and the conductor size of the main loop needs to
                be
                > very low loss (large diameter) for Tx in order to achieve reasonable
                > efficiency.
                >
                > Hi
                > It's a 4 feet loop wired with # 14 insulated wire 7 turns spaced 1/2
                > inch. Without capacitor, it resonate at 1.8mhz. My transmitter has
                > only 100mw and I have a 1 watt booster. My aim is to transmit about
                > 200 feet away, no more. May be I'll not need to use the booster. I
                > have a variable capacitor which I salvaged from an old 3 watt CB. I
                > just don't want to destroy my transmitter output transistor.
                > Thanks
                > Danny

                Ok this setup might work. Be advised that you have big time losses in
                this loop, possibly on the order of 20 dB. For receiving this would
                only be noticeable on the margin, where you would never hear very weak
                signals. Since you wouldn't hear them you would have no idea that
                your antenna might not be very efficient.

                There is one other consideraton, however, which could destroy your 1
                watt amplifier. Keep in mind that receivers are much more forgiving
                than transmitters regarding mismatches . Chances are overwhelming
                that the SWR at the transmitter would be very high. This reflected
                power will heat up your final. When a transistor gets too hot it will
                be destroyed. THis can happen in a millisecond.

                I have read on this list advise to retune receive-only loops every 500
                kHz. Well for a transmitter you must tune possibly every 10 kHz to
                maintain an adequate match for the transmitter to prevent fireworks.

                Do you have an antenna analyzer so that you can pre-tune your loop to
                an SWR of maybe 2:1 or less?

                Dave WA6YSO
              • Henry Kolesnik
                Reflected power does not heat up finals, it is re-reflected. High swr might exceed the voltage rating of the final transistors but reflections will not heat
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 1, 2005
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                  Reflected power does not heat up finals, it is re-reflected. High swr might exceed the voltage rating of the final transistors but reflections will not heat the finals.

                  73
                  Hank WD5JFR
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: dldorrance
                  To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 10:40 AM
                  Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                  --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Danny" <dannibou@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, <vze3v8dt@v...> wrote:
                  > > Not enough info given to solve that problem. Tell us more about
                  > your configuration. Important info is physical dimensions of the
                  > loop, diameter of the loop conductor, frequency. The two things
                  that
                  > would likely limit your ability to transmit would be the trimmer
                  > capacitor that you have needs to be rated for the fairly high
                  voltage
                  > even at low power and the conductor size of the main loop needs to
                  be
                  > very low loss (large diameter) for Tx in order to achieve reasonable
                  > efficiency.
                  >
                  > Hi
                  > It's a 4 feet loop wired with # 14 insulated wire 7 turns spaced 1/2
                  > inch. Without capacitor, it resonate at 1.8mhz. My transmitter has
                  > only 100mw and I have a 1 watt booster. My aim is to transmit about
                  > 200 feet away, no more. May be I'll not need to use the booster. I
                  > have a variable capacitor which I salvaged from an old 3 watt CB. I
                  > just don't want to destroy my transmitter output transistor.
                  > Thanks
                  > Danny

                  Ok this setup might work. Be advised that you have big time losses in
                  this loop, possibly on the order of 20 dB. For receiving this would
                  only be noticeable on the margin, where you would never hear very weak
                  signals. Since you wouldn't hear them you would have no idea that
                  your antenna might not be very efficient.

                  There is one other consideraton, however, which could destroy your 1
                  watt amplifier. Keep in mind that receivers are much more forgiving
                  than transmitters regarding mismatches . Chances are overwhelming
                  that the SWR at the transmitter would be very high. This reflected
                  power will heat up your final. When a transistor gets too hot it will
                  be destroyed. THis can happen in a millisecond.

                  I have read on this list advise to retune receive-only loops every 500
                  kHz. Well for a transmitter you must tune possibly every 10 kHz to
                  maintain an adequate match for the transmitter to prevent fireworks.

                  Do you have an antenna analyzer so that you can pre-tune your loop to
                  an SWR of maybe 2:1 or less?

                  Dave WA6YSO





                  If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links

                  For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only allows everyone (except the uploader and moderators) to see a max of 300x400.
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files

                  Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.



                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                  a.. Visit your group "loopantennas" on the web.

                  b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  loopantennas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Stumm
                  ... I think you d do better with a base loaded whip. (unless there is a reason for a loop) I m using a bottom loaded 9ft CB whip atop a 10 ft section of 2
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 1, 2005
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                    > Hi
                    > It's a 4 feet loop wired with # 14 insulated wire 7 turns spaced 1/2
                    > inch. Without capacitor, it resonate at 1.8mhz. My transmitter has
                    > only 100mw and I have a 1 watt booster. My aim is to transmit about
                    > 200 feet away, no more. May be I'll not need to use the booster. I
                    > have a variable capacitor which I salvaged from an old 3 watt CB. I
                    > just don't want to destroy my transmitter output transistor.
                    > Thanks
                    > Danny

                    I think you'd do better with a base loaded whip. (unless there is a
                    reason for a loop) I'm using a bottom loaded 9ft CB whip atop a 10 ft
                    section of 2" PVC. It's got lots of range running just 100mw.
                    The loading coil is 62 turns of close wound 16 gauge THHN. This is for
                    1700khz. 100mw is plenty of power to go 200 ft. (and it's legal) you
                    go above the BCB, (1710khz) or power output above 100mw, you'd be
                    breaking the law. - not that the FCC would immediately pounce on you...
                    They seem to have their hands full with bigger fish.

                    John
                  • dldorrance
                    Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if the wave is re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of light about 1.6 million journeys per second,
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 1, 2005
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                      Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if the wave is
                      re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of light about 1.6
                      million journeys per second, to us mortals, for all practical purposes
                      there remains a high voltage wave which is "standing" ie not moving,
                      at the final transistor (or tube). Remember the wave tanks from high
                      school physics? Those waves don't appear to move. They just stay
                      put.

                      Dave WA6YSO

                      --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Kolesnik" <kolesnik@s...>
                      wrote:
                      > Reflected power does not heat up finals, it is re-reflected. High
                      swr might exceed the voltage rating of the final transistors but
                      reflections will not heat the finals.
                      >
                      > 73
                      > Hank WD5JFR
                    • Danny
                      ... Thanks John. I tried the 9 feet antenna with base loaded coil some month ago but the range was just about 50 feet. May be something was wrong. I will try
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                        > I think you'd do better with a base loaded whip. (unless there is a
                        > reason for a loop) I'm using a bottom loaded 9ft CB whip atop a 10 ft
                        > section of 2" PVC. It's got lots of range running just 100mw.
                        > The loading coil is 62 turns of close wound 16 gauge THHN. This is for
                        > 1700khz. 100mw is plenty of power to go 200 ft. (and it's legal) you
                        > go above the BCB, (1710khz) or power output above 100mw, you'd be
                        > breaking the law. - not that the FCC would immediately pounce on you...
                        > They seem to have their hands full with bigger fish.
                        >
                        > John

                        Thanks John. I tried the 9 feet antenna with base loaded coil some
                        month ago but the range was just about 50 feet. May be something was
                        wrong. I will try it again later.
                        Danny
                      • Henry Kolesnik
                        Dave I just wanted to point out that finals cannot dissipate power. All modern solid state finals have a protection circuit to decrease power output it the
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                          Dave
                          I just wanted to point out that finals cannot dissipate power. All modern solid state finals have a protection circuit to decrease power output it the SWR rises so the resultant voltage can't damage the transistors. You can disconnect the antenna and power output will drop to zero fast so fast there's no damage. In TV stations that have long transmission lines a reflection ghost can be seen from the re-re-reflections if the SWR is not close to 1 to 1.

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: dldorrance
                          To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:21 PM
                          Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                          Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if the wave is
                          re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of light about 1.6
                          million journeys per second, to us mortals, for all practical purposes
                          there remains a high voltage wave which is "standing" ie not moving,
                          at the final transistor (or tube). Remember the wave tanks from high
                          school physics? Those waves don't appear to move. They just stay
                          put.

                          Dave WA6YSO

                          --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Kolesnik" <kolesnik@s...>
                          wrote:
                          > Reflected power does not heat up finals, it is re-reflected. High
                          swr might exceed the voltage rating of the final transistors but
                          reflections will not heat the finals.
                          >
                          > 73
                          > Hank WD5JFR




                          If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links

                          For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only allows everyone (except the uploader and moderators) to see a max of 300x400.
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files

                          Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.



                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                          a.. Visit your group "loopantennas" on the web.

                          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Stumm, John C
                          ________________________________ From: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Danny Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 5:13 AM ... Did you have the SWR dialed in fairly
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                            ________________________________

                            From: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Danny
                            Sent: Tue 8/2/2005 5:13 AM


                            >Thanks John. I tried the 9 feet antenna with base loaded coil some
                            >month ago but the range was just about 50 feet. May be something was
                            >wrong. I will try it again later.
                            >Danny

                            Did you have the SWR dialed in fairly close? At that low a power level, every little bit helps. I used an electronic SWR meter and I know mine was on the nose. I'm the guy who claimed he could hear the signal 10 miles away. I'm sure everyone assumed that my output exceeded 100mw. I was just using a stock AM88. The receiver I used had a low noise amplified loop helping it out!
                            John

                            If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links

                            For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only allows everyone (except the uploader and moderators) to see a max of 300x400.
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files

                            Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.
                            Yahoo! Groups Links










                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ya`akov N. Miles
                            Please look at my ftp website ftp://ftp.yehudi.ca/ham-radio/r_loop.f for a simple FORTRAN program which calculates the radiation resistance of a small
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                              Please look at my ftp website
                              ftp://ftp.yehudi.ca/ham-radio/r_loop.f
                              for a simple FORTRAN program which calculates the radiation resistance
                              of a small (circular) loop.

                              p.s. Has anyone tried the one meter diameter MFJ 1786 Super loop which
                              is advertised on page 147 of July 2005 QST? MFJ seems (for once) to be
                              doing it right. You can find out more at http://www.mfjenterprises.com

                              --
                              Linux - In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?
                              ftp site ftp.yehudi.ca <== Fast anonymous downloads of Linux Distributions
                              web site http://www.sem40.ru <== Russian language news site. Cool scoops
                              web site http://www.yaakov.ca <== Now powered by shaw.ca - Linux CDs $1 ea
                            • W1EOF
                              The ghost you see on TV stations is multipath which is a result of the signals taking different length paths to arrive at your antenna. They run 6 coax made
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                The ghost you see on TV stations is multipath which is a result of the
                                signals taking different length paths to arrive at your antenna. They run 6"
                                coax made from thick-wall copper pipe. Inside is Teflon donuts supporting
                                the inner conductor made from a piece of... thick it's 1" copper pipe.
                                Running 50kw (carrier!) at 400mhz+ will vaporize the copper and Teflon
                                within seconds. I've seen it.

                                While it's true that most modern solid state finals have protection
                                circuits, they are not fool-proof. I've never blown one up but plenty of
                                guys have. That's what tells me theya re not foolproof. I suspect that the
                                problem is when a fault occurs with a very fast pulse, one that is too fast
                                for the time constant of the protection circuit. This would typically be
                                more of a static or thunderstorm discharge kind of pulse, not an SWR related
                                problem. That said I could envision a case where an SWR problem would cause
                                an arc-over that would create a pulse fast and strong enough to destroy the
                                finals.

                                My $.02

                                73,

                                Mark W1EOF
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Henry Kolesnik [mailto:kolesnik@...]
                                Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:47 AM
                                To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                Dave
                                I just wanted to point out that finals cannot dissipate power. All modern
                                solid state finals have a protection circuit to decrease power output it the
                                SWR rises so the resultant voltage can't damage the transistors. You can
                                disconnect the antenna and power output will drop to zero fast so fast
                                there's no damage. In TV stations that have long transmission lines a
                                reflection ghost can be seen from the re-re-reflections if the SWR is not
                                close to 1 to 1.

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: dldorrance
                                To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:21 PM
                                Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if the wave is
                                re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of light about 1.6
                                million journeys per second, to us mortals, for all practical purposes
                                there remains a high voltage wave which is "standing" ie not moving,
                                at the final transistor (or tube). Remember the wave tanks from high
                                school physics? Those waves don't appear to move. They just stay
                                put.

                                Dave WA6YSO

                                --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Kolesnik" <kolesnik@s...>
                                wrote:
                                > Reflected power does not heat up finals, it is re-reflected. High
                                swr might exceed the voltage rating of the final transistors but
                                reflections will not heat the finals.
                                >
                                > 73
                                > Hank WD5JFR




                                If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links

                                For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only
                                allows everyone (except the uploader and moderators) to see a max of
                                300x400.
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files

                                Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.



                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                ----
                                YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                                a.. Visit your group "loopantennas" on the web.

                                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                loopantennas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                Service.


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                                ----



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links

                                For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only allows
                                everyone (except the uploader and moderators) to see a max of 300x400.
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files

                                Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.



                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                --
                                YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                                a.. Visit your group "loopantennas" on the web.

                                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                loopantennas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                Service.


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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Richards
                                I am a novice just studying for the first exams.... I gather you guys are in agreement on one thing... Whether or not you fry your output transistor, having
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                  I am a novice just studying for the first exams.... I gather you
                                  guys are in agreement on one thing...

                                  Whether or not you fry your output transistor, having that big
                                  standing wave really sucks... right?

                                  ///////////// Richards /////////////////
                                  ===========================================

                                  dldorrance wrote:

                                  >Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if the wave is
                                  >re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of light about
                                  >
                                • Henry Kolesnik
                                  Richards Any solid state rig purchased in the last 25 years hs automatic power reduction so the power output will depend on the SWR the rig s finals see and it
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                    Richards
                                    Any solid state rig purchased in the last 25 years hs automatic power reduction so the power output will depend on the SWR the rig's finals see and it will cut back power so that the SWR is always less than about two or three to one.
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Richards
                                    To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:36 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                    I am a novice just studying for the first exams.... I gather you
                                    guys are in agreement on one thing...

                                    Whether or not you fry your output transistor, having that big
                                    standing wave really sucks... right?

                                    ///////////// Richards /////////////////
                                    ===========================================

                                    dldorrance wrote:

                                    >Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if the wave is
                                    >re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of light about
                                    >


                                    If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links

                                    For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only allows everyone (except the uploader and moderators) to see a max of 300x400.
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files

                                    Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.



                                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                                    a.. Visit your group "loopantennas" on the web.

                                    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    loopantennas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • W1EOF
                                    Henry - Sorry but I have to disagree on your explanation of how the protection circuits work: Cutting back power does absolutely nothing to adjust the SWR
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Henry - Sorry but I have to disagree on your explanation of how the
                                      protection circuits work: Cutting back power does absolutely nothing to
                                      adjust the SWR down. All it does is attempt to lower the power so that the
                                      devices max power is not exceeded. SWR is a ratio of forward to reflected
                                      power. Lowering the power output from the radio will not change that ration
                                      one bit.

                                      Like any other circuit, there are compromises. They don't want the
                                      protection circuit kicking unnecessarily so the trigger has a time constant.
                                      If a pulse comes along that's great enough, and fast enough, you *WILL* lose
                                      your finals. This is way it's always always a good idea to disconnect your
                                      radios from the antenna when they are not in use.

                                      SWR on transmission lines is a complicated topic. For simplicity sake, you
                                      want to keep your SWR on coax lines as low as possible. Down in the area of
                                      1.5 or 2.0 to 1 is good. Look at the loss tables to see what happens at a
                                      particular frequency as your SWR climbs. You can easily lose 50% or more of
                                      your power before it reachs the antenna. Problem generally gets much worse
                                      as frequency goes up.


                                      73,

                                      Mark W1EOF

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Henry Kolesnik [mailto:kolesnik@...]
                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:12 PM
                                      To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                      Richards
                                      Any solid state rig purchased in the last 25 years hs automatic power
                                      reduction so the power output will depend on the SWR the rig's finals see
                                      and it will cut back power so that the SWR is always less than about two or
                                      three to one.
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Richards
                                      To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:36 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                      I am a novice just studying for the first exams.... I gather you
                                      guys are in agreement on one thing...

                                      Whether or not you fry your output transistor, having that big
                                      standing wave really sucks... right?

                                      ///////////// Richards /////////////////
                                      ===========================================

                                      dldorrance wrote:

                                      >Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if the wave is
                                      >re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of light about
                                      >


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                                    • Henry Kolesnik
                                      Perhaps I should not have used the term ghost as it generally refers to multipath signals as you have referenced. What I should have stated was that a
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                        Perhaps I should not have used the term ghost as it generally refers to multipath signals as you have referenced. What I should have stated was that a received TV picture will be smeared if the station SWR is not 1 to 1. The smear will be caused by reflections in the transmission line since TX finals cannot absorb and dissipate power from reflections. No multipath.
                                        Before I purchase a new Icom 701 in early 1980s at Dayton I asked the Icom rep if the finals were protected. He said they were and not to have any fears about losing them due to high SWR from whatever reason, even if the antenna falls apart. While the rep was talking to another customer I was calling CQ on the 701 and I disconnected the antenna connector to verify what he said. He saw me doing it and tried to jump out of his skin trying to stop me, but he was too slow. He was somewhat shaken and upset and got a little testy with me but the 701 survived. I wouldn't have purchased one it didn't pass this test, and I bought one, about $1800.00 IIRC. Later I saw him doing the what I did, monkey see, monkey do, proudly demonstrating Icom's bulletproof transceiver.

                                        73
                                        Hank WD5JFR
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: W1EOF
                                        To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:34 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                        The ghost you see on TV stations is multipath which is a result of the
                                        signals taking different length paths to arrive at your antenna. They run 6"
                                        coax made from thick-wall copper pipe. Inside is Teflon donuts supporting
                                        the inner conductor made from a piece of... thick it's 1" copper pipe.
                                        Running 50kw (carrier!) at 400mhz+ will vaporize the copper and Teflon
                                        within seconds. I've seen it.

                                        While it's true that most modern solid state finals have protection
                                        circuits, they are not fool-proof. I've never blown one up but plenty of
                                        guys have. That's what tells me theya re not foolproof. I suspect that the
                                        problem is when a fault occurs with a very fast pulse, one that is too fast
                                        for the time constant of the protection circuit. This would typically be
                                        more of a static or thunderstorm discharge kind of pulse, not an SWR related
                                        problem. That said I could envision a case where an SWR problem would cause
                                        an arc-over that would create a pulse fast and strong enough to destroy the
                                        finals.

                                        My $.02

                                        73,

                                        Mark W1EOF
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Henry Kolesnik [mailto:kolesnik@...]
                                        Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:47 AM
                                        To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                        Dave
                                        I just wanted to point out that finals cannot dissipate power. All modern
                                        solid state finals have a protection circuit to decrease power output it the
                                        SWR rises so the resultant voltage can't damage the transistors. You can
                                        disconnect the antenna and power output will drop to zero fast so fast
                                        there's no damage. In TV stations that have long transmission lines a
                                        reflection ghost can be seen from the re-re-reflections if the SWR is not
                                        close to 1 to 1.

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: dldorrance
                                        To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:21 PM
                                        Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                        Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if the wave is
                                        re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of light about 1.6
                                        million journeys per second, to us mortals, for all practical purposes
                                        there remains a high voltage wave which is "standing" ie not moving,
                                        at the final transistor (or tube). Remember the wave tanks from high
                                        school physics? Those waves don't appear to move. They just stay
                                        put.

                                        Dave WA6YSO

                                        --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Henry Kolesnik" <kolesnik@s...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > Reflected power does not heat up finals, it is re-reflected. High
                                        swr might exceed the voltage rating of the final transistors but
                                        reflections will not heat the finals.
                                        >
                                        > 73
                                        > Hank WD5JFR




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                                      • Henry Kolesnik
                                        Perhaps I could have been a little clearer, let me try again. VSWR is a ratio that depends on the mismatch and the voltage is a fucntion of power transmitted.
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                          Perhaps I could have been a little clearer, let me try again. VSWR is a ratio that depends on the mismatch and the voltage is a fucntion of power transmitted. P=E^2/R. The higher the power, the higher the voltage. Reducing power reduces the voltage but the ratio stays the same. The power is lowered to a level that won't zap the finals.

                                          73
                                          Hank WD5JFR
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: W1EOF
                                          To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 4:30 PM
                                          Subject: RE: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                          Henry - Sorry but I have to disagree on your explanation of how the
                                          protection circuits work: Cutting back power does absolutely nothing to
                                          adjust the SWR down. All it does is attempt to lower the power so that the
                                          devices max power is not exceeded. SWR is a ratio of forward to reflected
                                          power. Lowering the power output from the radio will not change that ration
                                          one bit.

                                          Like any other circuit, there are compromises. They don't want the
                                          protection circuit kicking unnecessarily so the trigger has a time constant.
                                          If a pulse comes along that's great enough, and fast enough, you *WILL* lose
                                          your finals. This is way it's always always a good idea to disconnect your
                                          radios from the antenna when they are not in use.

                                          SWR on transmission lines is a complicated topic. For simplicity sake, you
                                          want to keep your SWR on coax lines as low as possible. Down in the area of
                                          1.5 or 2.0 to 1 is good. Look at the loss tables to see what happens at a
                                          particular frequency as your SWR climbs. You can easily lose 50% or more of
                                          your power before it reachs the antenna. Problem generally gets much worse
                                          as frequency goes up.


                                          73,

                                          Mark W1EOF

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Henry Kolesnik [mailto:kolesnik@...]
                                          Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:12 PM
                                          To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                          Richards
                                          Any solid state rig purchased in the last 25 years hs automatic power
                                          reduction so the power output will depend on the SWR the rig's finals see
                                          and it will cut back power so that the SWR is always less than about two or
                                          three to one.
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Richards
                                          To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:36 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                          I am a novice just studying for the first exams.... I gather you
                                          guys are in agreement on one thing...

                                          Whether or not you fry your output transistor, having that big
                                          standing wave really sucks... right?

                                          ///////////// Richards /////////////////
                                          ===========================================

                                          dldorrance wrote:

                                          >Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if the wave is
                                          >re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of light about
                                          >


                                          If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links

                                          For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only
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                                          300x400.
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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                          If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
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                                          For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only allows
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                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files

                                          Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.



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                                          If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
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                                          For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only allows everyone (except the uploader and moderators) to see a max of 300x400.
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                                          Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.



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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Steve Baker
                                          Whether or not you fry your output transistor, having that big standing wave really sucks... right? Yes....standing waves are hard to surf. ...
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                            "Whether or not you fry your output transistor, having
                                            that big standing wave really sucks... right?"

                                            Yes....standing waves are hard to surf.

                                            --- Richards <jruing@...> wrote:

                                            > I am a novice just studying for the first exams....
                                            > I gather you
                                            > guys are in agreement on one thing...
                                            >
                                            > Whether or not you fry your output transistor,
                                            > having that big
                                            > standing wave really sucks... right?
                                            >
                                            > ///////////// Richards /////////////////
                                            > ===========================================
                                            >
                                            > dldorrance wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if
                                            > the wave is
                                            > >re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of
                                            > light about
                                            > >
                                            >


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                                          • vze3v8dt@verizon.net
                                            Hello, Richards. Good luck with your studies. In general large SWR is a bad thing, however there are things that can be done to deal with it, some more
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                              Hello, Richards. Good luck with your studies.

                                              In general large SWR is a bad thing, however there are things that can
                                              be done to deal with it, some more efficiently than others. Generally,
                                              a blanket statement about something excludes some possibilities which do
                                              work okay. An example with a high SWR is a center fed Zepp that is fed
                                              with twin lead transmission line, like 300 to 600 or more ohms
                                              characteristic impedance. At some frequencies there will be a good
                                              match between the antenna (load) and the transmission line. The next
                                              problem with that is that most rigs are set up with 50 ohm coaxial
                                              output (source impedance) so some method to convert from 50 ohms to 300
                                              - 600 ohms is needed. Sometimes people use baluns to do this, however
                                              they also have limitations and issues. For example, they introduce an
                                              extra loss element and at high power that generates heat, and so at high
                                              enough power levels with enough heat the ferrite or powdered core of a
                                              balun saturates causing the balun to become nonlinear and not work very
                                              well (as well as generating harmonics?). Maybe another way instead of
                                              using a balun is to use an antenna tuner (although most of them that
                                              have balanced line terminals also have baluns). I like my Johnson KW
                                              Matchbox tuner which doesn't have a balun and is quite efficient (at
                                              least on the "standard" (pre-WARC79) ham bands from 80 to 10m. Now,
                                              take for example an antenna impedance that is not the same as the
                                              characteristic impedance of the transmission line, then there is an
                                              SWR. The main problem with that is loss of signal in the transmission
                                              line as the reflected wave goes between from the antenna and the tuner
                                              and back again (and again and again ...). In coax this is a problem
                                              because the losses are high however using balanced feeders (twin lead)
                                              the losses are surprisingly small. So, it becomes an engineering
                                              problem, trying to minimize losses with tradeoffs of different
                                              architectures for a given design parameters. In general resonant
                                              antennas work very well and should be fed with coax or could be fed with
                                              balanced feeders and an appropriate impedance transformation at some
                                              point. Non-Resonant antennas should NOT be fed with coax (unless some
                                              tricks are done, I suppose), but would be better fed with balanced
                                              (twin-lead) feeders and use of a good "transmatch". Oh, by the way, the
                                              term "antenna tuner" is generally a false nomenclature unless it is
                                              actually employed at the end of the feedline at the antenna. However,
                                              most "antenna tuners" people use in their hamshacks actually help the
                                              transmitter match the load at that point. The only place there is a low
                                              SWR then is between the radio and the tuner, a matter of a few feet, but
                                              there could still be high SWR on the long run from the tuner to the
                                              antenna.

                                              You can learn a great deal more about this if you pick up a book called
                                              "Reflections" by Walt Maxwell, W2DU. He used to be the department head
                                              of the antenna group at a company that was at one time called RCA where
                                              communications and research satellites were developed and built. He
                                              retired before I was employed there in 1990, but it was evident that he
                                              was still greatly respected. The original version of the book was
                                              published by ARRL but later they ignored the science and tended to more
                                              folklore so they dropped his publication. It is again published in
                                              softcover as "Reflections II" and I think is in the 2nd or 3rd printing
                                              the last I knew and published now by WorldRadio Books.

                                              73,

                                              Mark, NK8Q


                                              Richards wrote:

                                              >I am a novice just studying for the first exams.... I gather you
                                              >guys are in agreement on one thing...
                                              >
                                              >Whether or not you fry your output transistor, having that big
                                              >standing wave really sucks... right?
                                              >
                                              >///////////// Richards /////////////////
                                              >===========================================
                                              >
                                              >dldorrance wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >>Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if the wave is
                                              >>re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of light about
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
                                              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links
                                              >
                                              >For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only allows everyone (except the uploader and moderators) to see a max of 300x400.
                                              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files
                                              >
                                              >Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.
                                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • dldorrance
                                              Richard, you must be a diplomat! Dave WA6YSO
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
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                                                Richard, you must be a diplomat!

                                                Dave WA6YSO

                                                --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, Richards <jruing@a...> wrote:
                                                > I am a novice just studying for the first exams.... I gather you
                                                > guys are in agreement on one thing...
                                                >
                                                > Whether or not you fry your output transistor, having that big
                                                > standing wave really sucks... right?
                                                >
                                                > ///////////// Richards /////////////////
                                                > ===========================================
                                                >
                                                > dldorrance wrote:
                                                >
                                                > >Hank, thanks for the distinction. However, even if the wave is
                                                > >re-reflected (back and forth around the speed of light about
                                                > >
                                              • Richards
                                                Thanks... Henry... I liked that story. Kinda gets right to the heart of the sales pitch.... Are you from Missouri, ... the show me state? ...
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Thanks... Henry... I liked that story. Kinda gets
                                                  right to the heart of the sales pitch.... Are you from
                                                  Missouri, ... the "show me" state? ...

                                                  ////////////// JH Richards ////////////
                                                  =================================

                                                  Henry Kolesnik wrote:

                                                  >While the rep was talking to another customer I was calling CQ on the 701 and I disconnected the antenna connector to verify what he said. He saw me doing it and tried to jump out of his skin trying to stop me, but he was too slow. He was somewhat shaken and upset and got a little testy with me but the 701 survived. I wouldn't have purchased one it didn't pass this test, and I bought one,
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Richards
                                                  WOW... THANK YOU FOR THE DETAILED REPLY. ///////// JH Richards ////////// ==================================
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    WOW... THANK YOU FOR THE DETAILED REPLY.

                                                    ///////// JH Richards //////////
                                                    ==================================

                                                    vze3v8dt@... wrote:

                                                    > Hello, Richards. Good luck with your studies.
                                                    > In general large SWR is a bad thing, however there are things that can
                                                    > be done to deal with it,
                                                  • Richards
                                                    Actually ... Worse than a diplomat.... I am a trial lawyer... (although I do not take injury cases...mostly business, criminal and divorce trial cases...)
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Aug 2, 2005
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Actually ... Worse than a diplomat.... I am a trial lawyer...
                                                      (although I do not take injury cases...mostly business,
                                                      criminal and divorce trial cases...)

                                                      So... it is a rare instance that I play "diplomat!" Please do not
                                                      tell anyone in my town - they will think I have gone soft...

                                                      Thanks for poking some fun. //// JH Richards ///
                                                      ==========================================

                                                      dldorrance wrote:

                                                      >Richard, you must be a diplomat!
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                    • Henry Kolesnik
                                                      Tulsa, OK ... From: Richards To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Aug 3, 2005
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Tulsa, OK
                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: Richards
                                                        To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 11:10 PM
                                                        Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Re: Transmitting loop


                                                        Thanks... Henry... I liked that story. Kinda gets
                                                        right to the heart of the sales pitch.... Are you from
                                                        Missouri, ... the "show me" state? ...

                                                        ////////////// JH Richards ////////////
                                                        =================================

                                                        Henry Kolesnik wrote:

                                                        >While the rep was talking to another customer I was calling CQ on the 701 and I disconnected the antenna connector to verify what he said. He saw me doing it and tried to jump out of his skin trying to stop me, but he was too slow. He was somewhat shaken and upset and got a little testy with me but the 701 survived. I wouldn't have purchased one it didn't pass this test, and I bought one,
                                                        >
                                                        >


                                                        If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links

                                                        For uploading images, I prefer the Files section since Photos only allows everyone (except the uploader and moderators) to see a max of 300x400.
                                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files

                                                        Put them in the appropriate folder, or create one.



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                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • RICH
                                                        For those interested in a commercially made Transmitting Loop antenna There is one available on the e-Place. It is made by ARA and is the ARA Model MLA1/E, 1.8
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Aug 6, 2005
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                                                          For those interested in a commercially made Transmitting Loop antenna
                                                          There is one available on the e-Place. It is made by ARA and is the
                                                          ARA Model MLA1/E, 1.8 MHZ to 15 MHZ, REMOTE CONTROLLED, 1000 Watts,
                                                          TX&RX VERT/HORIZ Item number: 796289675.

                                                          There a a lot of pictures and a good description. This along with the
                                                          ARA Catalog description/Specifications should give you a good idea of
                                                          the antenna.

                                                          RICH WA6KNW
                                                        • Richard M. MC Clung
                                                          The item number should be: 5796289675. Some how the first 5 was eliminated the first time I sent the info..... RICH WA6KNW From: RICH
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Aug 8, 2005
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                                                            The item number should be: 5796289675. Some how the first 5 was
                                                            eliminated the first time I sent the info.....
                                                            RICH WA6KNW

                                                            From: "RICH" <sgm460122@...>
                                                            Subject: Re: Transmitting loop

                                                            For those interested in a commercially made Transmitting Loop
                                                            antenna There is one available on the e-Place. It is made by ARA and
                                                            is the ARA Model MLA1/E, 1.8 MHZ to 15 MHZ, REMOTE CONTROLLED, 1000
                                                            Watts, TX&RX VERT/HORIZ Item number: 796289675.

                                                            There a a lot of pictures and a good description. This along with
                                                            the ARA Catalog description/Specifications should give you a good
                                                            idea
                                                            of the antenna.

                                                            RICH WA6KNW
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