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Re: Ugly Balun (choke)

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  • Kuby
    I did and he has no math.... to his charts either....
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 13, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      I did and he has no math.... to his charts either....

      --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Kjell W. Strom" <strom.lime@...> wrote:
      >
      > Check the work done by G3TXQ:
      >
      > http://www.karinya.net/g3txq/chokes/
      >
      > 73,
      > Kjell, PB3SM - SM6CPI
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:loopantennas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bo
      > Sent: 13 November 2012 18:22
      > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Re: Ugly Balun (choke)
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Another general statement that does not hold true in many cases.
      >
      >
      >
      > I analyzed the clamp on and solid ferrite core versus cost, and
      > found, yet again, pricing does not only depend on "specs" or
      > "efficiency.
      >
      >
      >
      > You are correct in stating that for a given volume of ferrite
      > material, an un-gapped (solid torrid) will give you higher
      > "efficiency" (being defined as impedance per turn) at a cost of
      > $XX.
      >
      >
      >
      > If you look at the snap on cores, the volume of the core I
      > mentioned is significantly higher (don't have the old analysis
      > anymore), helping towards attaining the impedance per turn of
      > the solid torrid.
      >
      >
      >
      > Now, if you look at pricing, this is where the market comes into
      > play. Fair-Rite has priced the snap on's that has only a small
      > association with raw material costs. They threw a lot of
      > ferrite at the big snap on to improve the impedance per turn,
      > and determined their market would pay a slight premium for the
      > convince of "snap on".
      >
      >
      >
      > One could use the solid torrid rather easily for a new
      > installation, but for existing installs, the snap on worked
      > better for me.
      >
      >
      >
      > Each case is different, and one should look at the major
      > criteria involved in bringing a solution to the issue at hand.
      >
      >
      >
      > I have a friend who likes to work the DOG (DX). He told me that
      > I could be doing these types of analysis, measure actual
      > performance with test equipment, and write mails like this, or I
      > could be working the DOG.
      >
      >
      >
      > He is at 8 band DXCC and on the door step (if not there now) of
      > Honor Roll.
      >
      >
      >
      > As you can see, I am still typing..............................
      >
      >
      >
      > Jim
      >
      >
      >
      > WA9ZBV
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: pond.james_pond <mailto:crusty@...>
      > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 8:33 AM
      > Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Ugly Balun (choke)
      >
      >
      >
      > clamp-ons are inefficient and costly.
      >
      > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Ugly Baluns DO NOT work "as advertised".
      > >
      > > I have tried many variations and evaluated them with an AIM
      > analyzer and the choking impedance is unpredictible.
      > >
      > > Get some 31 material ferrite clamp ons from Arrow Electronics
      > (Fair Rite p/n)
      > > 0431177081
      > >
      > > at $11.00 each
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > This will get it done, the ugly balun is VERY frequency
      > limited and has little choking impedance.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Jim
      > >
      > > WA9ZBV
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Kuby
      > > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:loopantennas%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 7:04 AM
      > > Subject: [loopantennas] Ugly Balun (choke)
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Has anyone figured out the math to an UglyBalun (UB), so we
      > could optimize it for the bands we use it on? To me the UB coax
      > appears to be 'short' a number of turns (coax length) for
      > 60-160m use.
      > >
      > > The current UB design looks to have coax near 40m 1/4
      > wavelength (if that is the correlation of the UB to frequency).
      > Also the UB appears to have been designed around using it on a
      > tri-band (10/15/20m) beam to replace the six-6" turns that
      > Cushcraft A3/A4 and other beams require.
      > >
      > > Th UB is not a balun that transforms impedance it is a choke
      > keeping RF off the coax shield, retaining the integrity of the
      > coax function.
      > >
      >
    • Jim Bo
      For 80 meters, I would get two snap on chokes from Arrow (I ordered 10 as they are useful in other areas) and put three turns (remember that when the coax goes
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 13, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
         
         
         
        For 80 meters, I would get two snap on chokes from Arrow (I ordered 10 as they are useful in other areas) and put three turns (remember that when the coax goes thru the core it is one turn, so three turns "look" like two loops), with each turn being 12 inch in diameter.  Space the two cores about 2 feet apart.  You want to keep the turns at a 12 diameter to keep the self resonance of the coax/core above 80 meters,  and give you "enough" choking impedance on 80 meters, so the cores do not overheat.
         
        Jim
         
        WA9ZBV
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Kuby
        Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 1:59 PM
        Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Ugly Balun (choke)

         

        I did and he has no math.... to his charts either....

        --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Kjell W. Strom" <strom.lime@...> wrote:
        >
        > Check the work done by G3TXQ:
        >
        > http://www.karinya.net/g3txq/chokes/
        >
        > 73,
        > Kjell, PB3SM - SM6CPI
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:loopantennas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Bo
        > Sent: 13 November 2012 18:22
        > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Re: Ugly Balun (choke)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Another general statement that does not hold true in many cases.
        >
        >
        >
        > I analyzed the clamp on and solid ferrite core versus cost, and
        > found, yet again, pricing does not only depend on "specs" or
        > "efficiency.
        >
        >
        >
        > You are correct in stating that for a given volume of ferrite
        > material, an un-gapped (solid torrid) will give you higher
        > "efficiency" (being defined as impedance per turn) at a cost of
        > $XX.
        >
        >
        >
        > If you look at the snap on cores, the volume of the core I
        > mentioned is significantly higher (don't have the old analysis
        > anymore), helping towards attaining the impedance per turn of
        > the solid torrid.
        >
        >
        >
        > Now, if you look at pricing, this is where the market comes into
        > play. Fair-Rite has priced the snap on's that has only a small
        > association with raw material costs. They threw a lot of
        > ferrite at the big snap on to improve the impedance per turn,
        > and determined their market would pay a slight premium for the
        > convince of "snap on".
        >
        >
        >
        > One could use the solid torrid rather easily for a new
        > installation, but for existing installs, the snap on worked
        > better for me.
        >
        >
        >
        > Each case is different, and one should look at the major
        > criteria involved in bringing a solution to the issue at hand.
        >
        >
        >
        > I have a friend who likes to work the DOG (DX). He told me that
        > I could be doing these types of analysis, measure actual
        > performance with test equipment, and write mails like this, or I
        > could be working the DOG.
        >
        >
        >
        > He is at 8 band DXCC and on the door step (if not there now) of
        > Honor Roll.
        >
        >
        >
        > As you can see, I am still typing..............................
        >
        >
        >
        > Jim
        >
        >
        >
        > WA9ZBV
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: pond.james_pond <mailto:crusty@...>
        > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 8:33 AM
        > Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Ugly Balun (choke)
        >
        >
        >
        > clamp-ons are inefficient and costly.
        >
        > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Ugly Baluns DO NOT work "as advertised".
        > >
        > > I have tried many variations and evaluated them with an AIM
        > analyzer and the choking impedance is unpredictible.
        > >
        > > Get some 31 material ferrite clamp ons from Arrow Electronics
        > (Fair Rite p/n)
        > > 0431177081
        > >
        > > at $11.00 each
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > This will get it done, the ugly balun is VERY frequency
        > limited and has little choking impedance.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Jim
        > >
        > > WA9ZBV
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Kuby
        > > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:loopantennas%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 7:04 AM
        > > Subject: [loopantennas] Ugly Balun (choke)
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Has anyone figured out the math to an UglyBalun (UB), so we
        > could optimize it for the bands we use it on? To me the UB coax
        > appears to be 'short' a number of turns (coax length) for
        > 60-160m use.
        > >
        > > The current UB design looks to have coax near 40m 1/4
        > wavelength (if that is the correlation of the UB to frequency).
        > Also the UB appears to have been designed around using it on a
        > tri-band (10/15/20m) beam to replace the six-6" turns that
        > Cushcraft A3/A4 and other beams require.
        > >
        > > Th UB is not a balun that transforms impedance it is a choke
        > keeping RF off the coax shield, retaining the integrity of the
        > coax function.
        > >
        >

      • pond.james_pond
        10 x Bird foot warmers @ $10 a pop.
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 14, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          10 x Bird foot warmers @ $10 a pop.

          --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@...> wrote:
          >
          > Another general statement that does not hold true in many cases.
          >
          >
          >
          > I analyzed the clamp on and solid ferrite core versus cost, and found, yet again, pricing does not only depend on "specs" or "efficiency.
          >
          >
          >
          > You are correct in stating that for a given volume of ferrite material, an un-gapped (solid torrid) will give you higher "efficiency" (being defined as impedance per turn) at a cost of $XX.
          >
          >
          >
          > If you look at the snap on cores, the volume of the core I mentioned is significantly higher (don't have the old analysis anymore), helping towards attaining the impedance per turn of the solid torrid.
          >
          >
          >
          > Now, if you look at pricing, this is where the market comes into play. Fair-Rite has priced the snap on's that has only a small association with raw material costs. They threw a lot of ferrite at the big snap on to improve the impedance per turn, and determined their market would pay a slight premium for the convince of "snap on".
          >
          >
          >
          > One could use the solid torrid rather easily for a new installation, but for existing installs, the snap on worked better for me.
          >
          >
          >
          > Each case is different, and one should look at the major criteria involved in bringing a solution to the issue at hand.
          >
          >
          >
          > I have a friend who likes to work the DOG (DX). He told me that I could be doing these types of analysis, measure actual performance with test equipment, and write mails like this, or I could be working the DOG.
          >
          >
          >
          > He is at 8 band DXCC and on the door step (if not there now) of Honor Roll.
          >
          >
          >
          > As you can see, I am still typing..............................
          >
          >
          >
          > Jim
          >
          >
          >
          > WA9ZBV
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: pond.james_pond
          > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 8:33 AM
          > Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Ugly Balun (choke)
          >
          >
          >
          > clamp-ons are inefficient and costly.
          >
          > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Ugly Baluns DO NOT work "as advertised".
          > >
          > > I have tried many variations and evaluated them with an AIM analyzer and the choking impedance is unpredictible.
          > >
          > > Get some 31 material ferrite clamp ons from Arrow Electronics (Fair Rite p/n)
          > > 0431177081
          > >
          > > at $11.00 each
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > This will get it done, the ugly balun is VERY frequency limited and has little choking impedance.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Jim
          > >
          > > WA9ZBV
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Kuby
          > > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 7:04 AM
          > > Subject: [loopantennas] Ugly Balun (choke)
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Has anyone figured out the math to an UglyBalun (UB), so we could optimize it for the bands we use it on? To me the UB coax appears to be 'short' a number of turns (coax length) for 60-160m use.
          > >
          > > The current UB design looks to have coax near 40m 1/4 wavelength (if that is the correlation of the UB to frequency). Also the UB appears to have been designed around using it on a tri-band (10/15/20m) beam to replace the six-6" turns that Cushcraft A3/A4 and other beams require.
          > >
          > > Th UB is not a balun that transforms impedance it is a choke keeping RF off the coax shield, retaining the integrity of the coax function.
          > >
          >
        • Jim Bo
          And...................your constructive suggestion?? Jim WA9ZBV BTW, the Rs of the choke on 80 meters is in the 4K ohm vinicity. How much power do you need to
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 14, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            And...................your constructive suggestion??
             
            Jim
            WA9ZBV
             
            BTW, the Rs of the choke on 80 meters is in the 4K ohm vinicity.
            How much power do you need to run to warm up bird's feet with 8k ohm (two chokes)???
             
            It is engineering and math, and the number two is the same on earth as it is in another galaxy.  What does your math say??
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 7:06 AM
            Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Ugly Balun (choke)

             

            10 x Bird foot warmers @ $10 a pop.

            --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@...> wrote:
            >
            > Another general statement that does not hold true in many cases.
            >
            >
            >
            > I analyzed the clamp on and solid ferrite core versus cost, and found, yet again, pricing does not only depend on "specs" or "efficiency.
            >
            >
            >
            > You are correct in stating that for a given volume of ferrite material, an un-gapped (solid torrid) will give you higher "efficiency" (being defined as impedance per turn) at a cost of $XX.
            >
            >
            >
            > If you look at the snap on cores, the volume of the core I mentioned is significantly higher (don't have the old analysis anymore), helping towards attaining the impedance per turn of the solid torrid.
            >
            >
            >
            > Now, if you look at pricing, this is where the market comes into play. Fair-Rite has priced the snap on's that has only a small association with raw material costs. They threw a lot of ferrite at the big snap on to improve the impedance per turn, and determined their market would pay a slight premium for the convince of "snap on".
            >
            >
            >
            > One could use the solid torrid rather easily for a new installation, but for existing installs, the snap on worked better for me.
            >
            >
            >
            > Each case is different, and one should look at the major criteria involved in bringing a solution to the issue at hand.
            >
            >
            >
            > I have a friend who likes to work the DOG (DX). He told me that I could be doing these types of analysis, measure actual performance with test equipment, and write mails like this, or I could be working the DOG.
            >
            >
            >
            > He is at 8 band DXCC and on the door step (if not there now) of Honor Roll.
            >
            >
            >
            > As you can see, I am still typing..............................
            >
            >
            >
            > Jim
            >
            >
            >
            > WA9ZBV
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: pond.james_pond
            > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 8:33 AM
            > Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Ugly Balun (choke)
            >
            >
            >
            > clamp-ons are inefficient and costly.
            >
            > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Ugly Baluns DO NOT work "as advertised".
            > >
            > > I have tried many variations and evaluated them with an AIM analyzer and the choking impedance is unpredictible.
            > >
            > > Get some 31 material ferrite clamp ons from Arrow Electronics (Fair Rite p/n)
            > > 0431177081
            > >
            > > at $11.00 each
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > This will get it done, the ugly balun is VERY frequency limited and has little choking impedance.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Jim
            > >
            > > WA9ZBV
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Kuby
            > > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 7:04 AM
            > > Subject: [loopantennas] Ugly Balun (choke)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Has anyone figured out the math to an UglyBalun (UB), so we could optimize it for the bands we use it on? To me the UB coax appears to be 'short' a number of turns (coax length) for 60-160m use.
            > >
            > > The current UB design looks to have coax near 40m 1/4 wavelength (if that is the correlation of the UB to frequency). Also the UB appears to have been designed around using it on a tri-band (10/15/20m) beam to replace the six-6" turns that Cushcraft A3/A4 and other beams require.
            > >
            > > Th UB is not a balun that transforms impedance it is a choke keeping RF off the coax shield, retaining the integrity of the coax function.
            > >
            >

          • tenorman1952
            ... For 40 m on up, 8 snap on ferrite beads. For 80 m on up, 15 beads. Or a good 1:1 current balun. For my antenna (fan dipole for 75/40/20 m) when running my
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 16, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@...> wrote:
              >
              > And...................your constructive suggestion??
              >
              > Jim
              > WA9ZBV
              >

              For 40 m on up, 8 snap on ferrite beads.

              For 80 m on up, 15 beads.

              Or a good 1:1 current balun.

              For my antenna (fan dipole for 75/40/20 m) when running my amp, I am using a 1:1 current balun #823A from Clear Signal Products (aka the Coax Man) in Oklahoma City.

              http://coaxman.com/showdetail.php?fetchitemnum=823A

              The snap on beads got rid of the RF in the shack, but the balun works equally well. I use the beads now on reels of RG-8X for portable operations.

              Paul - AE5JU
            • Jim Bo
              Paul, What mix do you use and what is the mfg part number? Have you measured the choking impedance vs. frequency of your set up, and if so, what were the
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 16, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Paul,
                 
                What mix do you use and what is the mfg part number?
                 
                Have you measured the choking impedance vs. frequency of your set up, and if so, what were the results?
                 
                Tnx
                 
                Jim
                WA9ZBV
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 9:45 AM
                Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Ugly Balun (choke)

                 



                --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@...> wrote:
                >
                > And...................your constructive suggestion??
                >
                > Jim
                > WA9ZBV
                >

                For 40 m on up, 8 snap on ferrite beads.

                For 80 m on up, 15 beads.

                Or a good 1:1 current balun.

                For my antenna (fan dipole for 75/40/20 m) when running my amp, I am using a 1:1 current balun #823A from Clear Signal Products (aka the Coax Man) in Oklahoma City.

                http://coaxman.com/showdetail.php?fetchitemnum=823A

                The snap on beads got rid of the RF in the shack, but the balun works equally well. I use the beads now on reels of RG-8X for portable operations.

                Paul - AE5JU

              • tenorman1952
                ... Fair Rite RCT-2 snapped on LMR-240. ... No, I just kept adding beads until the RF in the Shack problem disappeared, and added a few more for extra. The
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 17, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Paul,
                  >
                  > What mix do you use and what is the mfg part number?


                  Fair Rite RCT-2 snapped on LMR-240.


                  >
                  > Have you measured the choking impedance vs. frequency of your set up, and if so, what were the results?
                  >
                  > Tnx
                  >
                  > Jim
                  > WA9ZBV

                  No, I just kept adding beads until the "RF in the Shack" problem disappeared, and added a few more for extra. The symptoms were tingle from the metal mic (Heil HM-10) and a fluttering oscillation of my amp at anything over 350-400 watts on 80 meters. Also affected by proximity of the mic to the receiver (Ten-Tec Jupiter) and amp (Ameritron AL-811H), which are side by side.

                  No problems at 100 w, and when not using the amp.

                  I had a big bag of the Fair Rite RCT-2s, and kept putting on two at a time until the problem disappeared, then added a few more.

                  At the suggestion of very knowledgeable ham in these matters I contacted Clear Signal. The fellow there suggested their 1:1 Current Balun to replace both my fan dipole's center insulator and the beads. No problems since.

                  The FairRite Snap On Ferrite Beads are available from

                  www.hamcity.com (Jun's Electronics) RCT-2 for RG-8X and LMR-240, other 0.240" dia coax. RCT-4 for LMR-400, 9913, RG-213, other 0.400" dia coax.

                  https://www.hamcity.com/store/pc/Chokes-RFI-c655.htm

                  http://www.newark.com/ferrite-beads?isRedirect=true

                  http://palomar-engineers.com/ferrite-beads Scroll down to Split Beads. FSB-1/4 is FairRite RCT-2. FSB-1/2 is RCT-4.

                  Also look here:

                  http://palomar-engineers.com/1-1-balun-kits

                  http://www.radiodan.com/Henry/parts/RF_chokes.htm

                  Paul - AE5JU
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