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160m Loop: pro's, con's, model's, build

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  • DRK45365
    Anyone have a 160m loop up? How high off the ground? How fed? How does it work? Any pro s, con s methods in using/building? Anyone model a 160m loop using 450
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 19 12:19 PM
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      Anyone have a 160m loop up? How high off the ground? How fed?

      How does it work? Any pro's, con's methods in using/building?

      Anyone model a 160m loop using 450 ladder line feed?
    • Dale Parfitt
      Is your use for 160M only? Is this for DX or local use? If for DX, you re as well off with a dipole as high as you can get it. If for NVIS, I guess the full
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 19 1:14 PM
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        Is your use for 160M only? Is this for DX or local use?
        If for DX, you're as well off with a dipole as high as you can get it.
        If for NVIS, I guess the full wave loop has some gain compared to a dipole when mounted low. Personally, I can't see the advantage when it requires 2X the wire and 2X the supports, unless you want to also use it on higher bands- as the VSWR excursions are not as great as would be w/ a 160M dipole.

        Dale W4OP



        Anyone have a 160m loop up? How high off the ground? How fed?

        How does it work? Any pro's, con's methods in using/building?

        Anyone model a 160m loop using 450 ladder line feed?






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      • DRK45365
        This will be an all-band loop using 450 ladder allowing it to be an all HF band antenna. The reason for little info is few HAMs have the property or methods to
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 20 11:48 AM
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          This will be an all-band loop using 450 ladder allowing it to be an all HF band antenna. The reason for little info is few HAMs have the property or methods to install such a big antenna (I've only heard of one person using a 160/80m rhombic)....

          I'm installing a square 160m loop with ~75' of 450 ladder. The loop will almost be prefect E/W-N/S square with the ladder line coming off mid-east leg. Nice thing about a loop is no counterpoise needed.

          I'd like to know what the pattern will be with the loop 25-35' off the ground for the various bands?

          I intend to play/install the Ugly balun to see what affect this may have.

          Suggest you do some more reading/research on horizontal loops to discover the advantages.....

          --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Parfitt" <parinc1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Is your use for 160M only? Is this for DX or local use?
          > If for DX, you're as well off with a dipole as high as you can get it.
          > If for NVIS, I guess the full wave loop has some gain compared to a dipole when mounted low. Personally, I can't see the advantage when it requires 2X the wire and 2X the supports, unless you want to also use it on higher bands- as the VSWR excursions are not as great as would be w/ a 160M dipole.
          >
          > Dale W4OP
          >
          >
          >
          > Anyone have a 160m loop up? How high off the ground? How fed?
          >
          > How does it work? Any pro's, con's methods in using/building?
          >
          > Anyone model a 160m loop using 450 ladder line feed?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3453 - Release Date: 02/19/11 02:34:00
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Steve Ellington
          That s a pretty common antenna. I ve had several just like it. You can see patterns for each band if you go to cebik.com. Follow the instructions to set up a
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 20 1:41 PM
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            That's a pretty common antenna. I've had several just like it. You can see patterns for each band if you go to cebik.com.
            Follow the instructions to set up a free account. Cebik, W4RNL, was a real expert on antenna modeling. Once you get there, look for an article under "Tales and Technical" about large loops. "Horizontally Oriented, Horizontally Polarized Large Wire Loop Antennas"....Basically your radiation on 160m will be NVIS just like a dipole. On higher bands the angle becomes lower and max again favors the side opposite the feedline but with many smaller lobes all around the antenna.
            The only real advantage to the antenna is ease of loading. The impedance doesn't become super high on any harmonic. 450 ohm feed is ok. 300 ohm ladder line will have a slightly lower swr on most bands and will be easier to match at the rig end.
            Ugly baluns will not do much on 160m but this isn't too critical.
            Don't expect miracles. On 20 meters, a 33' dipole at the same height will outperform it in the broadside direction. The horiz. loop is just a good all purpose antenna that takes up a lot of room.
            73

            Steve
            N4LQ
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: DRK45365
            To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 2:48 PM
            Subject: [loopantennas] Re: 160m Loop: pro's, con's, model's, build



            This will be an all-band loop using 450 ladder allowing it to be an all HF band antenna. The reason for little info is few HAMs have the property or methods to install such a big antenna (I've only heard of one person using a 160/80m rhombic)....

            I'm installing a square 160m loop with ~75' of 450 ladder. The loop will almost be prefect E/W-N/S square with the ladder line coming off mid-east leg. Nice thing about a loop is no counterpoise needed.

            I'd like to know what the pattern will be with the loop 25-35' off the ground for the various bands?

            I intend to play/install the Ugly balun to see what affect this may have.

            Suggest you do some more reading/research on horizontal loops to discover the advantages.....

            --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Parfitt" <parinc1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Is your use for 160M only? Is this for DX or local use?
            > If for DX, you're as well off with a dipole as high as you can get it.
            > If for NVIS, I guess the full wave loop has some gain compared to a dipole when mounted low. Personally, I can't see the advantage when it requires 2X the wire and 2X the supports, unless you want to also use it on higher bands- as the VSWR excursions are not as great as would be w/ a 160M dipole.
            >
            > Dale W4OP
            >
            >
            >
            > Anyone have a 160m loop up? How high off the ground? How fed?
            >
            > How does it work? Any pro's, con's methods in using/building?
            >
            > Anyone model a 160m loop using 450 ladder line feed?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3453 - Release Date: 02/19/11 02:34:00
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • M HOLDEN
            Whoa! Any full size horizontal loop will have a feed point impedance of around 110 ohms. If you want to match that to your transmitter, (50 ohms), use a
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 25 2:45 PM
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              Whoa! Any full size horizontal loop will have a feed point impedance of around 110 ohms. If you want to match that to your transmitter, (50 ohms), use a quarter wave of 75 to 80 ohm twin (don't forget the velocity factor) and you will have a low loss and efficient set-up. The use of twin of higher impedance than 75 ohms is to obtain a medium impedance match for multi-band working. As a large loop is used on its harmonics for the higher frequencies, the feed point impedance changes from band to band, but, generally, is in the "medium impedance" range. Your 160 metre loop on 20 metres will produce rather low angles of radiation, and be a horizon kissing loop on 10 metres.The W4RNL Cebik site will provide you with detailed information about radiation patterns, and is the wire antenna bible on line.
              A common misconception about horizontal wire loops is that they warm the ground beneath them. This is not the truth. The ground beneath will act as a reflector, and the degree of that reflection is all about ground conductivity (soggy soil or desert sand), and spacings between ground and antenna. The ground beneath any antenna will affect the radiation pattern, and why loops are singled out as somehow worse than other types of antennas is beyond me.
              Baluns are rf transformers intended to match in ratios of 4:1 or 1:1 in the most common types. If you have a 4:1 balun attached to 110 ohms antenna impedance, then the transformation will be down to around 27 ohms, (not a good idea). Baluns are not intended for multiple impedance use. However, if you need to fry eggs in your shack, they could help. Avoid using coaxial cable, (very singular impedance stuff) and you will not need a balun. Twin feeder into a balanced antenna tuning unit is the obvious solution. Read up on doublet antennas and apply the same tuning practice to loop feeders instead to achieve great results.
              Mike G4HOL



              From: DRK45365 <n6jsx@...>
              To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
              Cc:
              Sent: Sunday, 20 February 2011, 19:48:27
              Subject: [loopantennas] Re: 160m Loop: pro's, con's, model's, build



              This will be an all-band loop using 450 ladder allowing it to be an all HF band antenna. The reason for little info is few HAMs have the property or methods to install such a big antenna (I've only heard of one person using a 160/80m rhombic)....

              I'm installing a square 160m loop with ~75' of 450 ladder. The loop will almost be prefect E/W-N/S square with the ladder line coming off mid-east leg. Nice thing about a loop is no counterpoise needed.

              I'd like to know what the pattern will be with the loop 25-35' off the ground for the various bands?

              I intend to play/install the Ugly balun to see what affect this may have.

              Suggest you do some more reading/research on horizontal loops to discover the advantages.....

              --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Parfitt" <parinc1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Is your use for 160M only? Is this for DX or local use?
              > If for DX, you're as well off with a dipole as high as you can get it.
              > If for NVIS, I guess the full wave loop has some gain compared to a dipole when mounted low. Personally, I can't see the advantage when it requires 2X the wire and 2X the supports, unless you want to also use it on higher bands- as the VSWR excursions are not as great as would be w/ a 160M dipole.
              >
              > Dale W4OP
              >
              >
              >
              > Anyone have a 160m loop up? How high off the ground? How fed?
              >
              > How does it work? Any pro's, con's methods in using/building?
              >
              > Anyone model a 160m loop using 450 ladder line feed?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3453 - Release Date: 02/19/11 02:34:00
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kuby
              Wow, a Loop-Group and so few with information to share.... It must be that 160/80m Loops are so complicated and take so much work to put up that there are so
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 9, 2012
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                Wow, a Loop-Group and so few with information to share....

                It must be that 160/80m Loops are so complicated and take so much work to put up that there are so few HAMs using them.

                *************************
                Has anyone 'modeled' or "USE" a full wave 160m loop? Using 450 ladder-line or coax?

                My desire is to install a square 160m loop with ~75' of 450 ladder. The loop will almost be a prefect E/W-N/S square with the ladder-line coming off mid-east leg.

                I'd like to know what the pattern will be with the loop 15', 20', 25', 30', 35' off the ground for the various bands? What the optimal height for this Loop for DX distances or USA distances.

                I intend to install an Ugly-balun to see the cause-n-affects.

                Does anyone have a 160m loop up? How high off the ground? How fed?
                How does it work? Pro's & con's in using/building?

                From what I've heard there may be some compromise in TX but it is a screamer on RX over all wires antennas (except multi-wave Rhombic).


                --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, <n6jsx@...> wrote:
                >
                > Anyone have a 160m loop up? How high off the ground? How fed?
                >
                > How does it work? Any pro's, con's methods in using/building?
                >
                > Anyone model a 160m loop using 450 ladder line feed?
                >
              • Jim Bo
                Kuby, Search the group and see my input ref UGLY balun. Not only are they UGLY, they don t work unless you have a method of measuring what they are actually
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 9, 2012
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                  Kuby,
                   
                  Search the group and see my input ref UGLY balun.  Not only are they UGLY, they don't work unless you have a method of measuring what they are actually doing.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Kuby
                  Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 10:42 AM
                  Subject: [loopantennas] Re: 160m Loop: pro's, con's, model's, build

                   

                  Wow, a Loop-Group and so few with information to share....

                  It must be that 160/80m Loops are so complicated and take so much work to put up that there are so few HAMs using them.

                  *************************
                  Has anyone 'modeled' or "USE" a full wave 160m loop? Using 450 ladder-line or coax?

                  My desire is to install a square 160m loop with ~75' of 450 ladder. The loop will almost be a prefect E/W-N/S square with the ladder-line coming off mid-east leg.

                  I'd like to know what the pattern will be with the loop 15', 20', 25', 30', 35' off the ground for the various bands? What the optimal height for this Loop for DX distances or USA distances.

                  I intend to install an Ugly-balun to see the cause-n-affects.

                  Does anyone have a 160m loop up? How high off the ground? How fed?
                  How does it work? Pro's & con's in using/building?

                  From what I've heard there may be some compromise in TX but it is a screamer on RX over all wires antennas (except multi-wave Rhombic).

                  --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, <n6jsx@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Anyone have a 160m loop up? How high off the ground? How fed?
                  >
                  > How does it work? Any pro's, con's methods in using/building?
                  >
                  > Anyone model a 160m loop using 450 ladder line feed?
                  >

                • Kuby
                  I ve had quit the contrary, high SUCCESS with UB s. I m even trying to get the math formula for optimizing UB s for specific bands or range of multi-bands. We
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 9, 2012
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                    I've had quit the contrary, high SUCCESS with UB's. I'm even trying to get the math formula for optimizing UB's for specific bands or range of multi-bands. We all have opinions - mine come from 'real' UB use.

                    --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Kuby,
                    >
                    > Search the group and see my input ref UGLY balun. Not only are they UGLY, they don't work unless you have a method of measuring what they are actually doing.
                  • Jim Bo
                    Have you measured one with an analyzer?? It is not an opinion, it was measured. I have the data/scans if you are interested. What is your real data say? Jim
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 9, 2012
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                      Have you measured one with an analyzer??
                       
                       
                       
                      It is not an opinion, it was measured.  I have the data/scans if you are interested.
                       
                      What is your "real" data say?
                       
                      Jim
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Kuby
                      Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 12:10 PM
                      Subject: [loopantennas] Re: 160m Loop: pro's, con's, model's, build

                       

                      I've had quit the contrary, high SUCCESS with UB's. I'm even trying to get the math formula for optimizing UB's for specific bands or range of multi-bands. We all have opinions - mine come from 'real' UB use.

                      --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Kuby,
                      >
                      > Search the group and see my input ref UGLY balun. Not only are they UGLY, they don't work unless you have a method of measuring what they are actually doing.

                    • Kuby
                      Congrats you ve successfully killed this topic.... Meaningful Topic data be damn.... You ve won - I m gone.... I ll find a more meaning full forum to acquire
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 12, 2012
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                        Congrats you've successfully killed this topic....
                        Meaningful Topic data be damn....

                        You've won - I'm gone.... I'll find a more meaning full forum to acquire info....

                        --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Have you measured one with an analyzer??
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > It is not an opinion, it was measured. I have the data/scans if you are interested.
                        >
                        > What is your "real" data say?
                        >
                        > Jim
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Kuby
                        > To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 12:10 PM
                        > Subject: [loopantennas] Re: 160m Loop: pro's, con's, model's, build
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I've had quit the contrary, high SUCCESS with UB's. I'm even trying to get the math formula for optimizing UB's for specific bands or range of multi-bands. We all have opinions - mine come from 'real' UB use.
                        >
                        > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Bo" <jbollit@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Kuby,
                        > >
                        > > Search the group and see my input ref UGLY balun. Not only are they UGLY, they don't work unless you have a method of measuring what they are actually doing.
                        >
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