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Re: [loopantennas] AM Loop

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  • Chris Trask
    ... Matching the antenna to the load and using narrow-band tuning can make a great deal of difference in the S/N ratio. I did just that for an HF loop
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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      >
      > Hi; What is the best AM antenna I can build? Tried a 4ft. box loop but
      > still is noisy. My goal is clear reception of the 560 am approx. 75
      > mi. away. Got some litz wire and want to make best use of it. Thank
      > You, Alexis.
      >

      Matching the antenna to the load and using narrow-band tuning can make a
      great deal of difference in the S/N ratio. I did just that for an HF loop
      recently:

      http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Paper011.html

      Chris

      ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and
      / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications
      / extinct stuff, anyhow? /
      \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY
      _ |/ Principal Engineer
      oo\ Sonoran Radio Research
      (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240
      \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
      \ \ / \
      \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515
      . ( ) \
      '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@...
      | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
      c__; c__; '-..'>.__

      Graphics by Loek Frederiks
    • Jay Heyl
      ... Loops are usually among the best at rejecting locally generated noise, but they are no immune. If you have a lot of RF noise in your area, the antenna is
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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        On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 3:33 PM, xxxalexxxisxxx <alexdsmith@...> wrote:
        > Hi; What is the best AM antenna I can build? Tried a 4ft. box loop but
        > still is noisy. My goal is clear reception of the 560 am approx. 75
        > mi. away. Got some litz wire and want to make best use of it. Thank

        Loops are usually among the best at rejecting locally generated noise,
        but they are no immune. If you have a lot of RF noise in your area,
        the antenna is going to pick some of it up.

        Depending on the power and antenna pattern of the station in question,
        you may also be asking for something that simply isn't possible
        without going to extreme measures.

        Perhaps you can give us a bit more information about your situation.
        What kind of noise are you hearing? Do you hear it on neighboring
        stations as well? What radio are you using? Can you put the antenna
        outside or must it be an indoor antenna? Which station are you trying
        to hear and approximately where do you live in relation to the
        transmitter? (Or check the antenna pattern at
        http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/home to see if you should be
        within the station's reception area.)

        -- Jay
      • alexis smith
        ... Thank You ; I will study this, Alexis.
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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          Chris Trask wrote:

          > >
          > > Hi; What is the best AM antenna I can build? Tried a 4ft. box loop but
          > > still is noisy. My goal is clear reception of the 560 am approx. 75
          > > mi. away. Got some litz wire and want to make best use of it. Thank
          > > You, Alexis.
          > >
          >
          > Matching the antenna to the load and using narrow-band tuning can make a
          > great deal of difference in the S/N ratio. I did just that for an HF loop
          > recently:
          >
          > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Paper011.html
          > <http://www.home.earthlink.net/%7Echristrask/Paper011.html>
          >
          > Chris
          >
          > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and
          > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications
          > / extinct stuff, anyhow? /
          > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY
          > _ |/ Principal Engineer
          > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research
          > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240
          > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
          > \ \ / \
          > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515
          > . ( ) \
          > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@...
          > <mailto:christrask%40earthlink.net>
          > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
          > <http://www.home.earthlink.net/%7Echristrask>
          > c__; c__; '-..'>.__
          >
          > Graphics by Loek Frederiks
          >
          >

          Thank You ; I will study this, Alexis.
        • alexis smith
          ... Hi Jay; The station I want to get clearly is WQAM Miami, I live in WPB FL, The link You sent shows me just out of local coverage area. I can and do use my
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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            Jay Heyl wrote:

            > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 3:33 PM, xxxalexxxisxxx
            > <alexdsmith@... <mailto:alexdsmith%40bellsouth.net>> wrote:
            > > Hi; What is the best AM antenna I can build? Tried a 4ft. box loop but
            > > still is noisy. My goal is clear reception of the 560 am approx. 75
            > > mi. away. Got some litz wire and want to make best use of it. Thank
            >
            > Loops are usually among the best at rejecting locally generated noise,
            > but they are no immune. If you have a lot of RF noise in your area,
            > the antenna is going to pick some of it up.
            >
            > Depending on the power and antenna pattern of the station in question,
            > you may also be asking for something that simply isn't possible
            > without going to extreme measures.
            >
            > Perhaps you can give us a bit more information about your situation.
            > What kind of noise are you hearing? Do you hear it on neighboring
            > stations as well? What radio are you using? Can you put the antenna
            > outside or must it be an indoor antenna? Which station are you trying
            > to hear and approximately where do you live in relation to the
            > transmitter? (Or check the antenna pattern at
            > http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/home
            > <http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/home> to see if you should be
            > within the station's reception area.)
            >
            > -- Jay
            >
            >

            Hi Jay; The station I want to get clearly is WQAM Miami, I live in WPB
            FL, The link You sent shows me just out of local coverage area. I can
            and do use my box antenna outside, I only have trouble with neighbor
            station at night. I use a CC radio and Adcom gtp 500. Most of the noise
            I hear is static. Thank You Alexis.
          • patbelcher
            Hello, I live on the Lake Worth/Boynton Beach line and I get WQAM pretty good in the daytime, but I hear what you are saying. No matter which receiver or
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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              Hello,
              I live on the Lake Worth/Boynton Beach line and I get WQAM pretty
              good in the daytime, but I hear what you are saying. No matter which
              receiver or antenna I use, I still get a Spanish radio station in
              the background. Maybe look into some mods for your receiver. Check
              out www.kiwa.com
              Hope this helps.
              Pat

              --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, alexis smith <alexdsmith@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Jay Heyl wrote:
              >
              > > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 3:33 PM, xxxalexxxisxxx
              > > <alexdsmith@... <mailto:alexdsmith%40bellsouth.net>> wrote:
              > > > Hi; What is the best AM antenna I can build? Tried a 4ft. box
              loop but
              > > > still is noisy. My goal is clear reception of the 560 am
              approx. 75
              > > > mi. away. Got some litz wire and want to make best use of it.
              Thank
              > >
              > > Loops are usually among the best at rejecting locally generated
              noise,
              > > but they are no immune. If you have a lot of RF noise in your
              area,
              > > the antenna is going to pick some of it up.
              > >
              > > Depending on the power and antenna pattern of the station in
              question,
              > > you may also be asking for something that simply isn't possible
              > > without going to extreme measures.
              > >
              > > Perhaps you can give us a bit more information about your
              situation.
              > > What kind of noise are you hearing? Do you hear it on neighboring
              > > stations as well? What radio are you using? Can you put the
              antenna
              > > outside or must it be an indoor antenna? Which station are you
              trying
              > > to hear and approximately where do you live in relation to the
              > > transmitter? (Or check the antenna pattern at
              > > http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/home
              > > <http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/home> to see if you should
              be
              > > within the station's reception area.)
              > >
              > > -- Jay
              > >
              > >
              >
              > Hi Jay; The station I want to get clearly is WQAM Miami, I live in
              WPB
              > FL, The link You sent shows me just out of local coverage area. I
              can
              > and do use my box antenna outside, I only have trouble with
              neighbor
              > station at night. I use a CC radio and Adcom gtp 500. Most of the
              noise
              > I hear is static. Thank You Alexis.
              >
            • tenorman1952
              ... See my folder Loop Kits in the Photo section. The MTM Scientific AM Loop is approximately 17 x 17 (24 on the diagonal) with 15 turns at 1/8 spacing.
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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                --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "xxxalexxxisxxx" <alexdsmith@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hi; What is the best AM antenna I can build? Tried a 4ft. box loop but
                > still is noisy. My goal is clear reception of the 560 am approx. 75
                > mi. away. Got some litz wire and want to make best use of it. Thank
                > You, Alexis.


                See my folder Loop Kits in the Photo section. The MTM Scientific AM
                Loop is approximately 17" x 17" (24" on the diagonal) with 15 turns at
                1/8" spacing. The tuning capacitor is a standard 9.6-365 pf tuning
                cap. There is a 1 turn pickup loop just inside of the 15 turn loop.

                http://www.mtmscientific.com/loop.html

                http://www.mtmscientific.com/pickup.html

                Well, whatdya know? If you click Photos by Customers, that is mine at
                the top of that page! I didn't know that until just now.

                The pickup loop shown is probably better than what I did. You could
                also make a coax pickup loop, making a, say, 10" dia loop on the end,
                soldering the center conductor of the very end back to the shield of
                the coax. I've made pickup loops like that and they work well.

                Of course, dimensions may be altered, but that will change the number
                of turns required, too. I have read comments from those that
                experimented with sizes that beyond a 2' loop, there are diminishing
                returns, that is, a 4' loop is not much better than a 2', but I have
                not built any larger.

                So, what is the best loop? I don't know, and I don't think anyone here
                knows... but there are a number of good designs. And this is THE place
                to share ideas, see what others are doing, find out what works, what
                doesn't.

                Paul C.
              • Jay Heyl
                ... You should be able to hear WQAM on the CCRadio without any trouble at all. You certainly shouldn t need a giant loop. If anything, that s going to overload
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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                  On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 5:08 PM, alexis smith <alexdsmith@...> wrote:

                  > Hi Jay; The station I want to get clearly is WQAM Miami, I live in WPB
                  > FL, The link You sent shows me just out of local coverage area. I can
                  > and do use my box antenna outside, I only have trouble with neighbor
                  > station at night. I use a CC radio and Adcom gtp 500. Most of the noise
                  > I hear is static. Thank You Alexis.

                  You should be able to hear WQAM on the CCRadio without any trouble at
                  all. You certainly shouldn't need a giant loop. If anything, that's
                  going to overload the CCRadio. I have to think if you're getting a lot
                  of noise in the signal it almost has to be coming from a local source.
                  Have you tried taking a walk with the radio to see what it sounds like
                  outside and at different spots in your neighborhood? Do you get the
                  same or similar noise on other stations? Do you normally use the radio
                  plugged in to AC or on battery? Does it sound different on battery?

                  If you don't want to walk around with the CCRadio, I recommend getting
                  a Sony SRF-59 for portable use with earphones. It's a great little
                  radio you can get at most Kmarts for $15. Do not let the cheap looks
                  fool you. There's a radio giant lurking under that cheap exterior.

                  If outside reception is okay, then walk around the house with the
                  radio and see if the noise gets stronger or weaker. I used to have a
                  "green plug" behind my refrigerator that turned out to be a huge
                  source of RFI. I located it using a portable SW radio with the antenna
                  fully retracted. When I got rid of that thing my noise level dropped
                  about 5 s-points.

                  Really, WQAM should be no problem for you. I'm pretty sure I can get
                  them here in Orlando. It's not a great signal, but it's there.

                  If you can't locate and eliminate a noise source, I would suggest
                  trying a small, tuned loop similar to the Terk or the Select-A-Tenna.
                  You should be able to inductively couple it to the CCRadio, so just
                  put the loop near the radio and tune the antenna to peak the radio
                  signal on that frequency. You can build your own tuned loop for about
                  $15 in parts. There are plans all over the Internet. (I'd start in the
                  file section for this group.)

                  -- Jay
                • gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
                  Why do you want to listen to the station? Is it technical challenge only or programing you like. You will understand the question as you read below. What they
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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                    Why do you want to listen to the station? Is it technical challenge only or programing you like. You will understand the question as you read below.

                    What they said, they just may be too week, far and conditions / environment (terrain, RFI far-dist) prevents clean reception.

                    Hate to say it, have you tried the Internet? Many stations have streaming content.

                    http://www.radio-locator.com/

                    Go to link and put the info in and select fringe stations. If it does not show up that is your first clue it is outside their fringe coverage area. If the station does not show, put in the zip code of the town the station is in and try again.

                    (*** NOTE: THERE IS A LINK TO THE STATIONS COVERAGE MAPS, DAY AND NIGHT. THAT ALONE MIGHT TELL YOU IF THERE IS ANY CHANCE YOU ARE ABLE TO GET THE STATION CLEANLY.)


                    **** Ignore below if you're JUST trying the Station as a technical challenge ****

                    When you see the station you will see some info and links to their web page and a icon indicating if they have streaming audio. IF THE STATION has a web page and simultaneous streaming audio of their programing you can go there and listen all day long static free ( if you have high speed Net connection).

                    You can also just google the radios call sign, that might get you direct to the station Net page if they have one. Some times stations don't have live streaming audio but PodCast. Basically the Podcast is audio files of recent programing. You can down load it and play it back on the computer or iPod / MP3 player. I use this a lot for programing.

                    Is there some particular program you want or need to hear? Is there some synidcaded radio program you want to hear? You can find a station that does carry that program and do the above, go to their streaming audio. The station can be 1000's of miles or half way around the world.

                    Sadly this is part of the reason SW radio is dying. For example BBC stopped SW radio to North America. Their logic, there're other ways to listen, satellite radio, cable tv and yes streaming audio on the NET. Boooooooo. (but the fact of life, Sat and Net are pretty good for getting live/streaming audio). The down side of both Sat and Net is you need to pay for it. Sat you need a service and special radio and Net you need a fairly expensive high-speed cable internet connection.

                    Why is that one station so important? If you really have to have it you just might be out of luck.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • alexis smith
                    ... Hi; To listen live to radio brodcast of dolphin games, not allowed to be on computer due to NFL rules. ThankYou, Alexis.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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                      gmcjetpilot@... wrote:

                      > Why do you want to listen to the station? Is it technical challenge
                      > only or programing you like. You will understand the question as you
                      > read below.
                      >
                      > What they said, they just may be too week, far and conditions /
                      > environment (terrain, RFI far-dist) prevents clean reception.
                      >
                      > Hate to say it, have you tried the Internet? Many stations have
                      > streaming content.
                      >
                      > http://www.radio-locator.com/ <http://www.radio-locator.com/>
                      >
                      > Go to link and put the info in and select fringe stations. If it does
                      > not show up that is your first clue it is outside their fringe
                      > coverage area. If the station does not show, put in the zip code of
                      > the town the station is in and try again.
                      >
                      > (*** NOTE: THERE IS A LINK TO THE STATIONS COVERAGE MAPS, DAY AND
                      > NIGHT. THAT ALONE MIGHT TELL YOU IF THERE IS ANY CHANCE YOU ARE ABLE
                      > TO GET THE STATION CLEANLY.)
                      >
                      >
                      > **** Ignore below if you're JUST trying the Station as a technical
                      > challenge ****
                      >
                      > When you see the station you will see some info and links to their web
                      > page and a icon indicating if they have streaming audio. IF THE
                      > STATION has a web page and simultaneous streaming audio of their
                      > programing you can go there and listen all day long static free ( if
                      > you have high speed Net connection).
                      >
                      > You can also just google the radios call sign, that might get you
                      > direct to the station Net page if they have one. Some times stations
                      > don't have live streaming audio but PodCast. Basically the Podcast is
                      > audio files of recent programing. You can down load it and play it
                      > back on the computer or iPod / MP3 player. I use this a lot for
                      > programing.
                      >
                      > Is there some particular program you want or need to hear? Is there
                      > some synidcaded radio program you want to hear? You can find a station
                      > that does carry that program and do the above, go to their streaming
                      > audio. The station can be 1000's of miles or half way around the world.
                      >
                      > Sadly this is part of the reason SW radio is dying. For example BBC
                      > stopped SW radio to North America. Their logic, there're other ways to
                      > listen, satellite radio, cable tv and yes streaming audio on the NET.
                      > Boooooooo. (but the fact of life, Sat and Net are pretty good for
                      > getting live/streaming audio). The down side of both Sat and Net is
                      > you need to pay for it. Sat you need a service and special radio and
                      > Net you need a fairly expensive high-speed cable internet connection.
                      >
                      > Why is that one station so important? If you really have to have it
                      > you just might be out of luck.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >

                      Hi; To listen live to radio brodcast of dolphin games, not allowed to be
                      on computer due to NFL rules. ThankYou, Alexis.
                    • Chris Trask
                      ... LOL! Oh, what a fool I ve been, helping a Dolphins fan. If you had said Steelers, then I d be cheering. :{b Chris ,----------------------. High
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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                        >
                        > > Why do you want to listen to the station? Is it technical challenge
                        > > only or programing you like. You will understand the question as you
                        > > read below.
                        >

                        <<<SNIP>>>

                        >
                        > > Why is that one station so important? If you really have to have it
                        > > you just might be out of luck.
                        > >
                        >
                        > Hi; To listen live to radio brodcast of dolphin games, not allowed to be
                        > on computer due to NFL rules. ThankYou, Alexis.
                        >

                        LOL! Oh, what a fool I've been, helping a Dolphins fan. If you had
                        said Steelers, then I'd be cheering. :{b

                        Chris

                        ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and
                        / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications
                        / extinct stuff, anyhow? /
                        \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY
                        _ |/ Principal Engineer
                        oo\ Sonoran Radio Research
                        (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240
                        \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
                        \ \ / \
                        \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515
                        . ( ) \
                        '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@...
                        | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
                        c__; c__; '-..'>.__

                        Graphics by Loek Frederiks
                      • patbelcher
                        So what type of results do you get with the 2 foot loop. I have seen these before, so I was just curious. Thanks, Pat--- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com,
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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                          So what type of results do you get with the 2 foot loop. I have seen
                          these before, so I was just curious.
                          Thanks,
                          Pat--- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "tenorman1952"
                          <tenorman1952@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "xxxalexxxisxxx"
                          <alexdsmith@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi; What is the best AM antenna I can build? Tried a 4ft. box
                          loop but
                          > > still is noisy. My goal is clear reception of the 560 am approx.
                          75
                          > > mi. away. Got some litz wire and want to make best use of it.
                          Thank
                          > > You, Alexis.
                          >
                          >
                          > See my folder Loop Kits in the Photo section. The MTM Scientific
                          AM
                          > Loop is approximately 17" x 17" (24" on the diagonal) with 15
                          turns at
                          > 1/8" spacing. The tuning capacitor is a standard 9.6-365 pf
                          tuning
                          > cap. There is a 1 turn pickup loop just inside of the 15 turn
                          loop.
                          >
                          > http://www.mtmscientific.com/loop.html
                          >
                          > http://www.mtmscientific.com/pickup.html
                          >
                          > Well, whatdya know? If you click Photos by Customers, that is
                          mine at
                          > the top of that page! I didn't know that until just now.
                          >
                          > The pickup loop shown is probably better than what I did. You
                          could
                          > also make a coax pickup loop, making a, say, 10" dia loop on the
                          end,
                          > soldering the center conductor of the very end back to the shield
                          of
                          > the coax. I've made pickup loops like that and they work well.
                          >
                          > Of course, dimensions may be altered, but that will change the
                          number
                          > of turns required, too. I have read comments from those that
                          > experimented with sizes that beyond a 2' loop, there are
                          diminishing
                          > returns, that is, a 4' loop is not much better than a 2', but I
                          have
                          > not built any larger.
                          >
                          > So, what is the best loop? I don't know, and I don't think anyone
                          here
                          > knows... but there are a number of good designs. And this is THE
                          place
                          > to share ideas, see what others are doing, find out what works,
                          what
                          > doesn't.
                          >
                          > Paul C.
                          >
                        • Jay Heyl
                          ... Hi Alexis, I ve done a bit more research on this and am convinced you should be able to get a decent signal from WQAM unless you have a local noise source
                          Message 12 of 27 , Sep 8, 2008
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                            On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 5:08 PM, alexis smith <alexdsmith@...> wrote:

                            > Hi Jay; The station I want to get clearly is WQAM Miami, I live in WPB
                            > FL, The link You sent shows me just out of local coverage area. I can
                            > and do use my box antenna outside, I only have trouble with neighbor
                            > station at night. I use a CC radio and Adcom gtp 500. Most of the noise
                            > I hear is static. Thank You Alexis.

                            Hi Alexis,

                            I've done a bit more research on this and am convinced you should be
                            able to get a decent signal from WQAM unless you have a local noise
                            source interfering.

                            On my drive home tonight I tuned to 560 and was able to get a weak but
                            listenable signal from here in Orlando. That would have been when they
                            were still on day power of 5kW. Just a bit ago, about 11pm EDT, I
                            tuned in with my Panasonic RF-2200 and was able to get a fair signal
                            from WQAM. There was a Spanish station underneath, but I was able to
                            null them by rotating the antenna. (The RF-2200 has a rotatable
                            ferrite antenna on the top.)

                            These things lead me to conclude the issue must be one of the
                            following. 1) You have a local noise source that's interfering with
                            your reception. If this is the case, it's unlikely any antenna is
                            going to solve the problem. Your best bet is to find the source of the
                            noise and do whatever you can to eliminate it.

                            2) You have a MW transmitter nearby that is overloading the CCRadio
                            and causing it to become desensitized. The CCRadio is known for being
                            subject to this in strong signal areas. It's one of the side effects
                            of a sensitive radio that is difficult to overcome. If this is the
                            case, you might have better luck with a less sensitive radio. Or with
                            a radio that has an adjustable RF gain control.

                            Since you mention you have the same problem with your Adcom tuner, it
                            either shares the CCRadio's penchant for overload, or you have a local
                            noise issue. The latter would seem more likely.

                            Short of finding and eliminating the noise source, there's not a whole
                            lot you can do. If the noise is coming from a single source, you might
                            be able to use two antennas with a phaser to null out the noise.

                            Disregard the desired signal for a moment. When tuned to 560, can you
                            rotate the radio to minimize the noise? Don't pay attention to the
                            station, just to the noise. When you rotate the radio does the noise
                            ever get significantly lower in volume? If it does, then the phaser
                            solution might have some promise.

                            As to finding the noise, common sources are TVs, dimmer switches,
                            touch-lamps, computers, computer monitors (more CRT than LCD), compact
                            fluorescent lights, regular fluorescent lights. I had a security light
                            that used to generate a huge amount of noise because it was set to
                            stay on at a dimmed level at night, going to full brightness if there
                            was any motion in the area. The noise was horrendous. I changed the
                            settings on the light so it was completely off unless there was motion
                            and the noise went away. I'm sure some of the others can contribute
                            other ideas for noise sources.

                            I hope this helps.

                            -- Jay
                          • alexis smith
                            ... Be nice; At least Your team kicks ass , I like Ben. Good luck this year, Should be You and Colts at end, Alexis.
                            Message 13 of 27 , Sep 9, 2008
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                              Chris Trask wrote:

                              > >
                              > > > Why do you want to listen to the station? Is it technical challenge
                              > > > only or programing you like. You will understand the question as you
                              > > > read below.
                              > >
                              >
                              > <<<SNIP>>>
                              >
                              > >
                              > > > Why is that one station so important? If you really have to have it
                              > > > you just might be out of luck.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > Hi; To listen live to radio brodcast of dolphin games, not allowed to be
                              > > on computer due to NFL rules. ThankYou, Alexis.
                              > >
                              >
                              > LOL! Oh, what a fool I've been, helping a Dolphins fan. If you had
                              > said Steelers, then I'd be cheering. :{b
                              >
                              > Chris
                              >
                              > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and
                              > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications
                              > / extinct stuff, anyhow? /
                              > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY
                              > _ |/ Principal Engineer
                              > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research
                              > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240
                              > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
                              > \ \ / \
                              > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515
                              > . ( ) \
                              > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@...
                              > <mailto:christrask%40earthlink.net>
                              > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
                              > <http://www.home.earthlink.net/%7Echristrask>
                              > c__; c__; '-..'>.__
                              >
                              > Graphics by Loek Frederiks
                              >
                              >

                              Be nice; At least Your team kicks ass , I like Ben. Good luck this year,
                              Should be You and Colts at end, Alexis.
                            • Chris Trask
                              ... There was a time when the Dolphins were a team to be reckoned with. I watched the Bares and the Clots (sic, sic, sic) the other day. Not sure of the Clots
                              Message 14 of 27 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                >
                                > Be nice; At least Your team kicks ass , I like Ben. Good luck this year,
                                > Should be You and Colts at end, Alexis.
                                >

                                There was a time when the Dolphins were a team to be reckoned with.

                                I watched the Bares and the Clots (sic, sic, sic) the other day. Not
                                sure of the Clots will be a contender this year.

                                Chris

                                ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and
                                / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications
                                / extinct stuff, anyhow? /
                                \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY
                                _ |/ Principal Engineer
                                oo\ Sonoran Radio Research
                                (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240
                                \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
                                \ \ / \
                                \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515
                                . ( ) \
                                '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@...
                                | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
                                c__; c__; '-..'>.__

                                Graphics by Loek Frederiks
                              • Chris Trask
                                ... Are those two stations in the same direction? If not, you could use a phased array of two antennas to cancel out the unwanted one. Modifying the receiver
                                Message 15 of 27 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                  >
                                  > Hello,
                                  > I live on the Lake Worth/Boynton Beach line and I get WQAM pretty
                                  > good in the daytime, but I hear what you are saying. No matter which
                                  > receiver or antenna I use, I still get a Spanish radio station in
                                  > the background. Maybe look into some mods for your receiver. Check
                                  > out www.kiwa.com
                                  > Hope this helps.
                                  > Pat
                                  >

                                  Are those two stations in the same direction? If not, you could use a
                                  phased array of two antennas to cancel out the unwanted one. Modifying the
                                  receiver will not help unless the two stations are at different frequencies,
                                  and then only if their sidebands do not overlap each other's carriers.

                                  Chris

                                  ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and
                                  / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications
                                  / extinct stuff, anyhow? /
                                  \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY
                                  _ |/ Principal Engineer
                                  oo\ Sonoran Radio Research
                                  (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240
                                  \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
                                  \ \ / \
                                  \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515
                                  . ( ) \
                                  '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@...
                                  | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
                                  c__; c__; '-..'>.__

                                  Graphics by Loek Frederiks
                                • tenorman1952
                                  ... wrote: (trimmed) ... compact ... light ... there ... motion ... I had not realized just how much manmade noise was present until the power was out a few
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                    --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Heyl" <yahoogroups@...>
                                    wrote:

                                    (trimmed)

                                    > As to finding the noise, common sources are TVs, dimmer switches,
                                    > touch-lamps, computers, computer monitors (more CRT than LCD),
                                    compact
                                    > fluorescent lights, regular fluorescent lights. I had a security
                                    light
                                    > that used to generate a huge amount of noise because it was set to
                                    > stay on at a dimmed level at night, going to full brightness if
                                    there
                                    > was any motion in the area. The noise was horrendous. I changed the
                                    > settings on the light so it was completely off unless there was
                                    motion
                                    > and the noise went away. I'm sure some of the others can contribute
                                    > other ideas for noise sources.
                                    >
                                    > I hope this helps.
                                    >
                                    > -- Jay

                                    I had not realized just how much manmade noise was present until the
                                    power was out a few days due to Hurricane Gustav passing directly
                                    over us. Tuning through the AM band with my Grundig S350DL was like
                                    listening to FM with mute. With RF gain and volume full up, and
                                    placing my ear close to the speaker, I could just barely hear a
                                    soft "shhhhhh" between stations, and the occasional soft crackle of
                                    distant lightning. Nothing else. I heard distant daytime stations I
                                    had never heard before.

                                    This is now moot, as power is back, along with all the other noise.
                                    Computers produce a lot of noise, even laptops.

                                    Paul
                                  • Jay Heyl
                                    ... The Spanish station is probably Radio Rebelde in Holguin, Cuba. This is the only Cuban station I can find documented on 560. Holguin is fairly far to the
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                      On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 6:28 PM, patbelcher <patbelcher@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > I live on the Lake Worth/Boynton Beach line and I get WQAM pretty
                                      > good in the daytime, but I hear what you are saying. No matter which
                                      > receiver or antenna I use, I still get a Spanish radio station in
                                      > the background. Maybe look into some mods for your receiver. Check
                                      > out www.kiwa.com
                                      >

                                      The Spanish station is probably Radio Rebelde in Holguin, Cuba. This is the
                                      only Cuban station I can find documented on 560. Holguin is fairly far to
                                      the east of your line to WQAM. You should be able to null out the Spanish
                                      station by rotating your radio and still get a signal from WQAM. I was able
                                      to do so at about 11pm last night. When I tried again later (about 1am) I
                                      was getting too many signals, possibly from Mexico in addition to Cuba, and
                                      was not able to null them all out.

                                      I don't think any of the Kiwa mods are going to help with this situation.
                                      The Kiwa loop might help, but he stopped making those a few years ago.

                                      -- Jay


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • alexis smith
                                      ... Thank You Chris; Alexis.
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                        Chris Trask wrote:

                                        > >
                                        > > Hello,
                                        > > I live on the Lake Worth/Boynton Beach line and I get WQAM pretty
                                        > > good in the daytime, but I hear what you are saying. No matter which
                                        > > receiver or antenna I use, I still get a Spanish radio station in
                                        > > the background. Maybe look into some mods for your receiver. Check
                                        > > out www.kiwa.com
                                        > > Hope this helps.
                                        > > Pat
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Are those two stations in the same direction? If not, you could use a
                                        > phased array of two antennas to cancel out the unwanted one. Modifying the
                                        > receiver will not help unless the two stations are at different
                                        > frequencies,
                                        > and then only if their sidebands do not overlap each other's carriers.
                                        >
                                        > Chris
                                        >
                                        > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and
                                        > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications
                                        > / extinct stuff, anyhow? /
                                        > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY
                                        > _ |/ Principal Engineer
                                        > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research
                                        > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240
                                        > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240
                                        > \ \ / \
                                        > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515
                                        > . ( ) \
                                        > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@...
                                        > <mailto:christrask%40earthlink.net>
                                        > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask
                                        > <http://www.home.earthlink.net/%7Echristrask>
                                        > c__; c__; '-..'>.__
                                        >
                                        > Graphics by Loek Frederiks
                                        >
                                        >

                                        Thank You Chris; Alexis.
                                      • alexis smith
                                        ... Hi Jay; I am very great full for Your knowledge and help, I just purchased a Sony SRF-59 on ebay as none of my local stores carried it. I walked around my
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                          Jay Heyl wrote:

                                          > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 6:28 PM, patbelcher <patbelcher@...
                                          > <mailto:patbelcher%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > I live on the Lake Worth/Boynton Beach line and I get WQAM pretty
                                          > > good in the daytime, but I hear what you are saying. No matter which
                                          > > receiver or antenna I use, I still get a Spanish radio station in
                                          > > the background. Maybe look into some mods for your receiver. Check
                                          > > out www.kiwa.com
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > The Spanish station is probably Radio Rebelde in Holguin, Cuba. This
                                          > is the
                                          > only Cuban station I can find documented on 560. Holguin is fairly far to
                                          > the east of your line to WQAM. You should be able to null out the Spanish
                                          > station by rotating your radio and still get a signal from WQAM. I was
                                          > able
                                          > to do so at about 11pm last night. When I tried again later (about 1am) I
                                          > was getting too many signals, possibly from Mexico in addition to
                                          > Cuba, and
                                          > was not able to null them all out.
                                          >
                                          > I don't think any of the Kiwa mods are going to help with this situation.
                                          > The Kiwa loop might help, but he stopped making those a few years ago.
                                          >
                                          > -- Jay
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >

                                          Hi Jay; I am very great full for Your knowledge and help, I just
                                          purchased a Sony SRF-59 on ebay as none of my local stores carried it. I
                                          walked around my house with cc radio and I have a noisy house, mostly my
                                          home theater hd dvr`s and batt backup. There are some quieter aereas on
                                          the street but still pick up static noise. Would a copper tube shielded
                                          anntenna help? Thank You, Alexis.
                                        • Jay Heyl
                                          ... For the most part, if you re in a noisy environment, the radio is going to pick up that noise. Short of getting rid of the noise, a tuned loop is about the
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                            On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 7:16 PM, alexis smith <alexdsmith@...> wrote:

                                            > walked around my house with cc radio and I have a noisy house, mostly my
                                            > home theater hd dvr`s and batt backup. There are some quieter aereas on
                                            > the street but still pick up static noise. Would a copper tube shielded
                                            > anntenna help? Thank You, Alexis.

                                            For the most part, if you're in a noisy environment, the radio is
                                            going to pick up that noise. Short of getting rid of the noise, a
                                            tuned loop is about the best you can do. In that regard, you've
                                            certainly come to the right place.

                                            I don't know much about shielded loops so I think I'll let some of the
                                            other folks take it from here. Best of luck in hearing the Dolphins.

                                            -- Jay
                                          • tenorman1952
                                            ... seen ... (trimmed) ... Excellent! I can tune in a weak distant 860 khz AM next to our local blowtorch WWL 870 AM. And this loop will tune from 530 to 1710
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                              --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "patbelcher" <patbelcher@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > So what type of results do you get with the 2 foot loop. I have
                                              seen
                                              > these before, so I was just curious.
                                              > Thanks,
                                              > Pat--- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "tenorman1952"
                                              > <tenorman1952@> wrote:

                                              (trimmed)

                                              > > http://www.mtmscientific.com/loop.html

                                              Excellent! I can tune in a weak distant 860 khz AM next to our local
                                              blowtorch WWL 870 AM.

                                              And this loop will tune from 530 to 1710 khz with additional
                                              adjustment on each end of the tuning capacitor.

                                              It actually measures 24" on the diagonal, 17" on each side, 15 turns
                                              of 22 ga magnet wire at 1/8" spacing, with 9.6-380 pf tuning
                                              capacitor.

                                              I couldn't ask for any better for AM. Only drawback is having to
                                              tune it, which is not difficult.

                                              I use 4 turn untuned loops with my stereo receivers and tuners. That
                                              is the "Ultimate AM Loop Antenna" from a kit sold on eBay by seller
                                              jburns1987. This loop measures 12" on each side, 17" on the
                                              diagonal, and has 4 turns of stranded insulated hookup wire.
                                              The "Ultimate" is much better than the tiny loops that usually come
                                              with stereo receivers. At night I easily pick up, from my home on
                                              the Gulf Coast, WOAI in San Antonio, WSB in Atlanta, KMOX in St.
                                              Louis, WLW Cinncinnati, WLS and WGN in Chicago.

                                              Of course, the MTM tuned loop will bring them in a little better, and
                                              bring in other stations the Ultimate won't.

                                              Paul C.
                                              tenorman1952
                                            • airchecklover
                                              Alex; I ve got the 2ft MTM Scientific loop and the CCrane Twin-Ferrite. The 2ft loop will outperform the 1 ft loops currently on the market - ie, Terk.
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                                Alex; I've got the 2ft MTM Scientific loop and the CCrane
                                                Twin-Ferrite. The 2ft loop will outperform the 1 ft loops currently
                                                on the market - ie, Terk. Select-A-Tenna and the two new ones from
                                                China. The T-F will work about the same as the 2 ft. loop. Which is
                                                better (2 ft loop or T-F)? They are about the same price new. The 2
                                                ft. loop will never need batteries (it is passive) and you don't have
                                                to mess around with cables. The T-F is less bulky and you can place
                                                the antenna head away from the remote tuning box and your receiver.
                                                It's a 50/50 toss up. If however you purchase both, through extensive
                                                testing I have found the two antennas working together are an
                                                incredible combination. ((i will post audio files on these tests in
                                                the next week or so - you will be able to hear what i have learned))

                                                Hope that helps,

                                                Mark

                                                =======================================work

                                                > --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "xxxalexxxisxxx" <alexdsmith@>
                                                > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hi; What is the best AM antenna I can build? Tried a 4ft. box loop but
                                                > > still is noisy. My goal is clear reception of the 560 am approx. 75
                                                > > mi. away. Got some litz wire and want to make best use of it. Thank
                                                > > You, Alexis.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > See my folder Loop Kits in the Photo section. The MTM Scientific AM
                                                > Loop is approximately 17" x 17" (24" on the diagonal) with 15 turns at
                                                > 1/8" spacing. The tuning capacitor is a standard 9.6-365 pf tuning
                                                > cap. There is a 1 turn pickup loop just inside of the 15 turn loop.
                                                >
                                                > http://www.mtmscientific.com/loop.html
                                                >
                                                > http://www.mtmscientific.com/pickup.html
                                                >
                                                > Well, whatdya know? If you click Photos by Customers, that is mine at
                                                > the top of that page! I didn't know that until just now.
                                                >
                                                > The pickup loop shown is probably better than what I did. You could
                                                > also make a coax pickup loop, making a, say, 10" dia loop on the end,
                                                > soldering the center conductor of the very end back to the shield of
                                                > the coax. I've made pickup loops like that and they work well.
                                                >
                                                > Of course, dimensions may be altered, but that will change the number
                                                > of turns required, too. I have read comments from those that
                                                > experimented with sizes that beyond a 2' loop, there are diminishing
                                                > returns, that is, a 4' loop is not much better than a 2', but I have
                                                > not built any larger.
                                                >
                                                > So, what is the best loop? I don't know, and I don't think anyone here
                                                > knows... but there are a number of good designs. And this is THE place
                                                > to share ideas, see what others are doing, find out what works, what
                                                > doesn't.
                                                >
                                                > Paul C.
                                                >
                                              • alexis smith
                                                ... Hi Jay; I turned off all the ac breakers in my house to find noise. By turning on individual breakers I found a noisy power supply for a security camera,
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Sep 11, 2008
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                                                  Jay Heyl wrote:

                                                  > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 5:08 PM, alexis smith <alexdsmith@...
                                                  > <mailto:alexdsmith%40bellsouth.net>> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Hi Jay; The station I want to get clearly is WQAM Miami, I live in WPB
                                                  > > FL, The link You sent shows me just out of local coverage area. I can
                                                  > > and do use my box antenna outside, I only have trouble with neighbor
                                                  > > station at night. I use a CC radio and Adcom gtp 500. Most of the noise
                                                  > > I hear is static. Thank You Alexis.
                                                  >
                                                  > You should be able to hear WQAM on the CCRadio without any trouble at
                                                  > all. You certainly shouldn't need a giant loop. If anything, that's
                                                  > going to overload the CCRadio. I have to think if you're getting a lot
                                                  > of noise in the signal it almost has to be coming from a local source.
                                                  > Have you tried taking a walk with the radio to see what it sounds like
                                                  > outside and at different spots in your neighborhood? Do you get the
                                                  > same or similar noise on other stations? Do you normally use the radio
                                                  > plugged in to AC or on battery? Does it sound different on battery?
                                                  >
                                                  > If you don't want to walk around with the CCRadio, I recommend getting
                                                  > a Sony SRF-59 for portable use with earphones. It's a great little
                                                  > radio you can get at most Kmarts for $15. Do not let the cheap looks
                                                  > fool you. There's a radio giant lurking under that cheap exterior.
                                                  >
                                                  > If outside reception is okay, then walk around the house with the
                                                  > radio and see if the noise gets stronger or weaker. I used to have a
                                                  > "green plug" behind my refrigerator that turned out to be a huge
                                                  > source of RFI. I located it using a portable SW radio with the antenna
                                                  > fully retracted. When I got rid of that thing my noise level dropped
                                                  > about 5 s-points.
                                                  >
                                                  > Really, WQAM should be no problem for you. I'm pretty sure I can get
                                                  > them here in Orlando. It's not a great signal, but it's there.
                                                  >
                                                  > If you can't locate and eliminate a noise source, I would suggest
                                                  > trying a small, tuned loop similar to the Terk or the Select-A-Tenna.
                                                  > You should be able to inductively couple it to the CCRadio, so just
                                                  > put the loop near the radio and tune the antenna to peak the radio
                                                  > signal on that frequency. You can build your own tuned loop for about
                                                  > $15 in parts. There are plans all over the Internet. (I'd start in the
                                                  > file section for this group.)
                                                  >
                                                  > -- Jay
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  Hi Jay; I turned off all the ac breakers in my house to find noise. By
                                                  turning on individual breakers I found a noisy power supply for a
                                                  security camera, the wiring carried noise everywhere!. Replaced
                                                  offending wall wart, now I can hear 560AM, great lesson. Thank You for
                                                  all Your help!!! Alexis.
                                                • Jay Heyl
                                                  ... That sounds almost exactly like the problem I had with the security light. The house was dead quiet RF-wise during the day. At night there would be a
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Sep 11, 2008
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                                                    On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 11:19 AM, alexis smith <alexdsmith@...>wrote:

                                                    >
                                                    > Hi Jay; I turned off all the ac breakers in my house to find noise. By
                                                    > turning on individual breakers I found a noisy power supply for a
                                                    > security camera, the wiring carried noise everywhere!. Replaced
                                                    > offending wall wart, now I can hear 560AM, great lesson. Thank You for
                                                    > all Your help!!! Alexis.
                                                    >

                                                    That sounds almost exactly like the problem I had with the security light.
                                                    The house was dead quiet RF-wise during the day. At night there would be a
                                                    horrible noise almost everywhere. I eventually found the noise was worse in
                                                    the garage, and finally narrowed it down to one switch. Turns out the
                                                    security light was wired to an outside socket at the back of the house I
                                                    assume was intended for Christmas lights. It was controlled by a switch in
                                                    the garage that was taped into the "on" position and marked "Do not turn
                                                    off". (I assume a previous owner marked it.) Of course, I turned it off and
                                                    the noise immediately disappeared.

                                                    I eventually figured out it was the dimmer on the security light and it
                                                    could be configured to stay off until it detected motion. Problem solved.

                                                    It was really amazing how the house wiring carried the noise practically
                                                    everywhere throughout the house.

                                                    I'm very glad you were able to find and fix the problem. That was a good
                                                    approach turning everything off and trying it one circuit at a time. Given
                                                    how the wiring was propagating the noise, that probably saved you hours of
                                                    checking things around the house.

                                                    -- Jay


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Bill McGraw
                                                    My crude 8 loop has worked with WSL Nashville--300+ miles, WWL in New Orleans 280 miles and a station in Dallas. I have two V-caps and the larger 3 gang works
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Sep 12, 2008
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      My crude 8" loop has worked with WSL Nashville--300+ miles, WWL in New
                                                      Orleans 280 miles and a station in Dallas. I have two V-caps and the larger
                                                      3 gang works the best. Next will be a 2' square with how many loops up to 7
                                                      or so I'll need for AM/MF broadcast. I might even use coax and a toroid
                                                      balun. Will a loop work with shortwave HF? How does it work and how does it
                                                      connect the best--pick up loop? I have no idea.

                                                      William W."Bill" McGraw
                                                      "Somewhere South of Chicago"
                                                      Greenville, MS 38701
                                                    • Jay Heyl
                                                      ... Is that daytime or night time reception? -- Jay
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Sep 12, 2008
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                                                        On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 3:42 AM, Bill McGraw <mcgr3799@...> wrote:
                                                        > My crude 8" loop has worked with WSL Nashville--300+ miles, WWL in New
                                                        > Orleans 280 miles and a station in Dallas. I have two V-caps and the larger

                                                        Is that daytime or night time reception?

                                                        -- Jay
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