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Re: Don't mention "C Crane" or "Twin Coil Ferrite Loop"

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  • Steve
    My 2 cents as a layman, IANAL: The trademark thing could be called fair use, since you are only identifying the item you reverse engineered. IE, you aren t
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 1, 2007
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      My 2 cents as a layman, IANAL:

      The trademark thing could be called fair use, since you are only
      identifying the item you reverse engineered. IE, you aren't trying to
      pass off your own design as if it were C. Crane's.

      And a trademark search on http://www.uspto.gov shows no matches for
      either "C. Crane" nor "Twin coil ferrite am antenna". The first is the
      guy's name (someone's name is not trademarkable) and the second is
      merely descriptive (which is also not trademarkable).

      The copyright thing sounds like pure FUD. You didn't redraw the patent
      drawing, you reverse engineered the actual item. Copyrights are -very-
      specific in nature, so your schematic would have to be an almost exact
      copy in placement of lines and components and text to be an infringement.

      And so far, reverse engineering an item is still legal.

      Steve Greenfield

      --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "w1eof@..." <w1eof@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Below is an email sent to me tonight from a rep from C. Crane company.
      > He called me last night and was very nice on the telephone. I explained
      > that I didn't feel like I had violated any copyright but that I would
      > consider taking it down. Tonight I get this ridiculous email where they
      > claim I can't even mention the name of the company or the product
      > without their written permission.
      >
      > At any rate, I got better things to do with my time than fight-off
      > frivolous lawsuits. So I will be taking the file down tonight.
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Mark
      >
      >
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > Mark Titterington
      > Hamnutz Website Hosting
      >
      > Dear Mr. Titterington:
      > C. Crane Company, Inc. ("C. Crane"), was recently made aware that you
      > are using the name "C. Crane" and "Twin Coil Ferrite AM Antenna" on a
      > portable document file located at the following URL:
      > http://www.hamnutz.com/loops/ccrane.pdf
      > As you may know, C. Crane has used these names not only on our product,
      > but also on documents, radio advertisements, trade and consumer
      > advertising, catalogs, C. Crane website(s), and other promotional and
      > licensed material distributed worldwide. This product has been in
      > existence since 2001 and has enjoyed tremendous success.
      > United States trademark law requires that C. Crane take all reasonable
      > steps to prevent others from using its marks, or confusingly similar
      > marks, in such a way so as to "dilute" its distinctiveness as an
      > exclusive designator of C. Crane's goods and services. If the mark is
      > used by too many different sources, it becomes a "generic" term, and C.
      > Crane may lose its exclusive right to use it. Thus, it is C. Crane's
      > responsibility to police the use of "C. Crane" and "Twin Coil
      Ferrite AM
      > Antenna" in any manner, and stop all unauthorized use of its
      trademark(s).
      > In addition to the trademark infringement, C. Crane has reason to
      > believe you have made an unauthorized use of our copyrighted C. Crane
      > Twin Coil Ferrite AM Antenna Schematic (the "Schematic") in the
      > preparation of a schematic derived there from. We reserve all rights to
      > the original "Schematic", first published in 2001, and have registered
      > copyright therein. Your work entitled Twin Coil Ferrite AM Antenna
      by C.
      > Crane clearly used our "Schematic" as its basis.
      > As you neither asked for nor received permission to use our "Schematic"
      > as the basis for the infringing schematic and you neither asked for nor
      > received permission to make or distribute copies, including electronic
      > copies, of the same, we believe you have willfully infringed our rights
      > under 17 U.S.C. Section 101 et seq. and could be liable for statutory
      > damages as high as $150,000 as set forth in Section 504(c)(2) therein.
      > Although we believe your use of "C. Crane" and "Twin Coil Ferrite AM
      > Antenna" was not intended to harm C. Crane in any manner, we trust that
      > you can appreciate our concerns. Accordingly, we request that you
      > refrain from using the words "C. Crane" and "Twin Coil Ferrite AM
      > Antenna" without express written permission, and remove all references
      > from the above-mentioned website. In addition, we request that you
      > provide C. Crane with written assurance that you will refrain from
      using
      > its trademarks in the future by no later than August 31st, 2007.
      > In addition, we request that you immediately cease the use and
      > distribution of all infringing works derived from the "Schematic", and
      > all copies, including electronic copies, of the same, that you deliver
      > to us, if applicable, all unused, undistributed copies of same, or
      > destroy such copies immediately and that you desist from this or any
      > other infringement of our rights in the future. If we have not received
      > an affirmative response from you by August 31st, 2007 indicating that
      > you have fully complied with these requirements, We will be forced to
      > take further action against you.
      > Thank you for your attention to this matter, and we look forward to
      > hearing back from you no later than August 31st, 2007.
      > Sincerely,
      > Robbie Crossley
      > Website Manager
      > C. Crane Company, Inc.
      > 1-800-522-8863
      > http://www.ccrane.com
      >
    • Richards
      Not so, Dick Tracy... You have forgotten there are trade names and trade marks and also lots of registered marketing trade phrases and logos. Remember
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
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        Not so, Dick Tracy...
        You have forgotten there are "trade names" and "trade marks" and also
        lots of registered marketing trade phrases and logos. Remember how
        Paris Hilton wanted to patent or register (i.e. protect) some little
        ditty like, "That's Hot" and got all cheesed off because the govt said
        that was just a bit too vague and already had a public use - certainly
        not unique to her or any product she was peddling. But you can register
        a trade name for a person's name or even a phrase (if it is sufficiently
        unique and not already having a secondary meaning or usage).

        ========== Richards =============
        ===============================================================
        >> > Steve said =

        The first is the
        > guy's name (someone's name is not trademarkable) and the second is
        > merely descriptive (which is also not trademarkable).

        ==============================================================
      • WILLIAM STEFFEL
        I always thought you could copy a patented item as long as it was for your own personal use & not to be sold. Am I wrong about this? ... From:
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
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          I always thought you could copy a patented item as long as it was for your
          own personal use & not to be sold. Am I wrong about this?
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <w1eof@...>
          To: <loopantennas@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:03 PM
          Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Don't mention "C Crane" or "Twin Coil Ferrite
          Loop"


          > Doing what I can to help...
          >
          > Thanks for the support.
          >
          > Mark
          >
          >
          > Richards wrote:
          > > Fabulous post. Excellent. /// Richards ///
          > > ==========================================================
          > >
          > > w1eof@... wrote:
          > >
          > >> A few comments:
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >> 1. I did not not admit to any wrong doing. On the contrary I expressed
          > >> my opinion that their charges were groundless.
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >> 2. To say that I cannot use their name to refer to their product is
          > >> ridiculous.
          > >>
          > >
          > > * * *
          > > In my experience people like that don't change their way of doing
          > > business or relating to people. I do not want to get bound into a legal
          > > agreement or a business relationship with someone who would approach
          > > anyone the way he did me.
          > >
          > >
          > >> So that's my take on this short little bit of drama.
          > >>
          > >
          > > ===============================================================
          > >
          > >
          > > If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links
          > >
          > > Post files here. If the file comes from a website, please put it in the
          Links rather than uploading the file.
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files
          > >
          > > You can now view images at higher resolution in Photos. Upload JPG and
          GIF into Photos. Please convert BMP or TIF to JPG or GIF before uploading.
          > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/photos
          > >
          > > And please trim all this when replying!
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links
          >
          > Post files here. If the file comes from a website, please put it in the
          Links rather than uploading the file.
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files
          >
          > You can now view images at higher resolution in Photos. Upload JPG and GIF
          into Photos. Please convert BMP or TIF to JPG or GIF before uploading.
          > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/photos
          >
          > And please trim all this when replying!
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Paul Birke
          I always thought that was the law here in Canada. For the USA I would assume the same best Paul ... From: WILLIAM STEFFEL To:
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 2, 2007
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            I always thought that was the law here in Canada.
            For the USA I would assume the same

            best
            Paul

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: WILLIAM STEFFEL <w.steffel@...>
            To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2007 7:34:45 PM
            Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Don't mention "C Crane" or "Twin Coil Ferrite Loop"

            I always thought you could copy a patented item as long as it was for your
            own personal use & not to be sold. Am I wrong about this?
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <w1eof@...>
            To: <loopantennas@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:03 PM
            Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Don't mention "C Crane" or "Twin Coil Ferrite
            Loop"


            > Doing what I can to help...
            >
            > Thanks for the support.
            >
            > Mark
            >
            >
            > Richards wrote:
            > > Fabulous post. Excellent. /// Richards ///
            > > ==========================================================
            > >
            > > w1eof@... wrote:
            > >
            > >> A few comments:
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >> 1. I did not not admit to any wrong doing. On the contrary I expressed
            > >> my opinion that their charges were groundless.
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >> 2. To say that I cannot use their name to refer to their product is
            > >> ridiculous.
            > >>
            > >
            > > * * *
            > > In my experience people like that don't change their way of doing
            > > business or relating to people. I do not want to get bound into a legal
            > > agreement or a business relationship with someone who would approach
            > > anyone the way he did me.
            > >
            > >
            > >> So that's my take on this short little bit of drama.
            > >>
            > >
            > > ===============================================================
            > >
            > >
            > > If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links
            > >
            > > Post files here. If the file comes from a website, please put it in the
            Links rather than uploading the file.
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files
            > >
            > > You can now view images at higher resolution in Photos. Upload JPG and
            GIF into Photos. Please convert BMP or TIF to JPG or GIF before uploading.
            > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/photos
            > >
            > > And please trim all this when replying!
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links
            >
            > Post files here. If the file comes from a website, please put it in the
            Links rather than uploading the file.
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files
            >
            > You can now view images at higher resolution in Photos. Upload JPG and GIF
            into Photos. Please convert BMP or TIF to JPG or GIF before uploading.
            > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/photos
            >
            > And please trim all this when replying!
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >



            If you've got links, post them in the Links section!
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/links

            Post files here. If the file comes from a website, please put it in the Links rather than uploading the file.
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/files

            You can now view images at higher resolution in Photos. Upload JPG and GIF into Photos. Please convert BMP or TIF to JPG or GIF before uploading.
            http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/loopantennas/photos

            And please trim all this when replying!
            Yahoo! Groups Links









            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Steve B.
            There is no federal distinction between tradename and trademark. They both fall under trademark law. A simple search can be done by anyone at:
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
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              There is no federal distinction between tradename and trademark. They
              both fall under trademark law. A simple search can be done by anyone
              at:

              http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm

              There is NO registered federal trademark (simple or design) for
              either "C. Crane" or "Twin coil ferrite loop"

              Registered federal copyrights can be searched by anyone at:

              http://www.copyright.gov/records/

              There is NO registered federal copyright of either "C. Crane"
              or "Twin coil ferrite loop"

              Steve B.


              --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, Richards <jruing@...> wrote:
              >
              > Not so, Dick Tracy...
              > You have forgotten there are "trade names" and "trade marks" and
              also
              > lots of registered marketing trade phrases and logos. Remember how
              > Paris Hilton wanted to patent or register (i.e. protect) some little
              > ditty like, "That's Hot" and got all cheesed off because the govt
              said
              > that was just a bit too vague and already had a public use -
              certainly
              > not unique to her or any product she was peddling. But you can
              register
              > a trade name for a person's name or even a phrase (if it is
              sufficiently
              > unique and not already having a secondary meaning or usage).
              >
              > ========== Richards =============
              > ===============================================================
              > >> > Steve said =
              >
              > The first is the
              > > guy's name (someone's name is not trademarkable) and the second is
              > > merely descriptive (which is also not trademarkable).
              >
              > ==============================================================
              >
            • Dave Taylor
              There are state trade names. For example, in Arizona, The Secretary of State issues trade names to business entities. Unauthorized use of such a trade name can
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
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                There are state trade names. For example, in Arizona, The Secretary of State
                issues trade names to business entities. Unauthorized use of such a trade
                name can be prosecuted under civil law.



                It's always good to check the home state of the business.



                Dave







                _____

                From: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:loopantennas@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Steve B.
                Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:42 AM
                To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: ***SPAM*** Score/Req: 07.51/06.50 - [loopantennas] Re: Don't
                mention "C Crane" or "Twin Coil Ferrite Loop"



                There is no federal distinction between tradename and trademark. They
                both fall under trademark law. A simple search can be done by anyone
                at:

                http://www.uspto <http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm>
                gov/main/trademarks.htm

                There is NO registered federal trademark (simple or design) for
                either "C. Crane" or "Twin coil ferrite loop"

                Registered federal copyrights can be searched by anyone at:

                http://www.copyrigh <http://www.copyright.gov/records/> t.gov/records/

                There is NO registered federal copyright of either "C. Crane"
                or "Twin coil ferrite loop"

                Steve B.

                --- In loopantennas@ <mailto:loopantennas%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com, Richards <jruing@...> wrote:
                >
                > Not so, Dick Tracy...
                > You have forgotten there are "trade names" and "trade marks" and
                also
                > lots of registered marketing trade phrases and logos. Remember how
                > Paris Hilton wanted to patent or register (i.e. protect) some little
                > ditty like, "That's Hot" and got all cheesed off because the govt
                said
                > that was just a bit too vague and already had a public use -
                certainly
                > not unique to her or any product she was peddling. But you can
                register
                > a trade name for a person's name or even a phrase (if it is
                sufficiently
                > unique and not already having a secondary meaning or usage).
                >
                > ========== Richards =============
                > ===============================================================
                > >> > Steve said =
                >
                > The first is the
                > > guy's name (someone's name is not trademarkable) and the second is
                > > merely descriptive (which is also not trademarkable).
                >
                > ==============================================================
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jay Heyl
                ... IANAL, but I do know that copyrights do NOT have to be registered with the federal government to be valid. If one wants to collect damages from a violator,
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
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                  On 9/3/07, Steve B. <mcqueen_34@...> wrote:

                  > There is NO registered federal copyright of either "C. Crane"
                  > or "Twin coil ferrite loop"

                  IANAL, but I do know that copyrights do NOT have to be registered with
                  the federal government to be valid. If one wants to collect damages
                  from a violator, then they must be registered, but to simply prevent
                  someone from making money from your copyrighted work or disseminating
                  it without your permission, the copyright need not be registered.

                  -- Jay
                • gandalfg8@aol.com
                  In a message dated 03/09/2007 19:33:23 GMT Daylight Time, ... IANAL, but I do know that copyrights do NOT have to be registered with the federal government to
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
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                    In a message dated 03/09/2007 19:33:23 GMT Daylight Time,
                    yahoogroups@... writes:

                    > There is NO registered federal copyright of either "C. Crane"
                    > or "Twin coil ferrite loop"

                    IANAL, but I do know that copyrights do NOT have to be registered with
                    the federal government to be valid. If one wants to collect damages
                    from a violator, then they must be registered, but to simply prevent
                    someone from making money from your copyrighted work or disseminating
                    it without your permission, the copyright need not be registered.



                    ------------------------------------

                    I think this may have wandered a bit off track.
                    Despite what the lawyer might or might not have claimed, copyright was never
                    really an issue here.

                    It's similar to the Wellbrook discussion we had some time ago, but copyright
                    still only covers documentation/images produced by the copyright holder.

                    A patent, as was commented a day or so ago, protects only commercial
                    exploitation and there's nothing in patent legislation that prevents copying a
                    device for your own, non commercial, purpose whereas copyright legislation does
                    restrict unauthorised copying, even for private use.
                    However, reverse engineering an electronic circuit and producing a schematic
                    might be considered a violation of intellectual property rights, not sure
                    how far the legislation has got on that, but it isn't covered by copyright law
                    unless the diagram is a reproduction of one produced by the copyright holder.

                    Similarly, if you publish a copy of the original printed circuit board that
                    could be considered copyright violation but designing your own can't be.
                    I'm not convinced either that mentioning a product by name is, in itself, a
                    trademark violation unless by way of using it for a competing product.

                    I can understand a manufacturer being unhappy if a full reverse engineered
                    schematic of his product, as opposed to patent outline documents, is made
                    public, I know I would be, but that doesn't make it either a copyright or a
                    patent issue.

                    regards

                    Nigel
                    GM8PZR








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Chris Smolinski
                    ... Terms such as C. Crane or Twin coil ferrite loop would be trademarked, not copyrighted. And even if they are trademarks, you re certainly able to
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 3, 2007
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                      >
                      >In a message dated 03/09/2007 19:33:23 GMT Daylight Time, 
                      >yahoogroups@... writes:
                      >
                      >> There is NO registered federal copyright of either "C. Crane"
                      >> or "Twin coil ferrite loop"
                      >
                      >IANAL, but I do know that copyrights do NOT have to be registered with
                      >the federal government to be valid. If one wants to collect damages
                      >from a violator, then they must be registered, but to simply prevent
                      >someone from making money from your copyrighted work or disseminating
                      >it without your permission, the copyright need not be registered.

                      Terms such as "C. Crane" or "Twin coil ferrite
                      loop" would be trademarked, not copyrighted. And
                      even if they are trademarks, you're certainly
                      able to mention them, as long as you state the
                      usual disclaimer blurbage that such and such is a
                      registered trademark of so and so.

                      You could possibly copyright a specific drawing,
                      but as you cannot copyright facts, you cannot
                      claim copyright over all representations of a
                      circuit. Feist Publications vs Rural Telephone is
                      likely the relevant supreme court case here.

                      --

                      ---
                      Chris Smolinski
                      Black Cat Systems
                      http://www.blackcatsystems.com
                    • jr_dakota
                      My taske on this is simply this 1 rule I absolutely refuse to buy or do business with any company that doesn t have a schematic available for their devices ...
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 4, 2007
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                        My taske on this is simply this 1 rule

                        I absolutely refuse to buy or do business with any company that
                        doesn't have a schematic available for their devices ... Those who
                        have something to hide usually are up to something unethical (although
                        it may be legal, ethics and legality are two entirely different
                        things) like profiteering. I have no problem with people turning a
                        reasonable profit on their work, I do have a big problem with the
                        Profiteers that are corrupting Society and especially Government

                        Capitalism without a firm Ethical Base is nothing more than Organized
                        Crime

                        JR

                        --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "w1eof@..." <w1eof@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Below is an email sent to me tonight from a rep from C. Crane company.
                        > He called me last night and was very nice on the telephone. I explained
                        > that I didn't feel like I had violated any copyright but that I would
                        > consider taking it down. Tonight I get this ridiculous email where they
                        > claim I can't even mention the name of the company or the product
                        > without their written permission.
                        >
                        > At any rate, I got better things to do with my time than fight-off
                        > frivolous lawsuits. So I will be taking the file down tonight.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Mark
                        >
                        > ~
                      • Chris Fleming
                        Indeed, however if you can not beat them then ... I am considering starting up a Hamburger chain call MuckDonalds should do really well. ... From:
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 4, 2007
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                          Indeed, however if you can not beat them then ...

                          I am considering starting up a Hamburger chain call "MuckDonalds" should do
                          really well.
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:loopantennas@yahoogroups.com]On
                          Behalf Of jr_dakota
                          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:34 AM
                          To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [loopantennas] Re: Don't mention "C Crane" or "Twin Coil Ferrite
                          Loop"


                          My taske on this is simply this 1 rule

                          I absolutely refuse to buy or do business with any company that
                          doesn't have a schematic available for their devices ... Those who
                          have something to hide usually are up to something unethical (although
                          it may be legal, ethics and legality are two entirely different
                          things) like profiteering. I have no problem with people turning a
                          reasonable profit on their work, I do have a big problem with the
                          Profiteers that are corrupting Society and especially Government

                          Capitalism without a firm Ethical Base is nothing more than Organized
                          Crime

                          JR

                          --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "w1eof@..." <w1eof@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Below is an email sent to me tonight from a rep from C. Crane company.
                          > He called me last night and was very nice on the telephone. I explained
                          > that I didn't feel like I had violated any copyright but that I would
                          > consider taking it down. Tonight I get this ridiculous email where they
                          > claim I can't even mention the name of the company or the product
                          > without their written permission.
                          >
                          > At any rate, I got better things to do with my time than fight-off
                          > frivolous lawsuits. So I will be taking the file down tonight.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          > Mark
                          >
                          > ~






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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