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New Degen DE31MS Loop Antenna

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  • rayneeny
    I thought i had this antenna installed correctly,its in the window but when i power up the antenna i hear no difference than when its powered off,anybody else
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 7, 2007
      I thought i had this antenna installed correctly,its in the window but
      when i power up the antenna i hear no difference than when its powered
      off,anybody else have this same issue??
    • Len Warner
      ... Oops! Should read - 100R//10uH in series with 10nF - In other words, the amplifier output load is 100R paralleled by 10uH, in series with 10nF. And that
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 7, 2007
        At 21:32:04 +0000 Wed, 07 Feb 2007, Len Warner wrote:

        >If you want to turn the DE31 into a MW loop,
        >bear in mind that the fet drain load is a broad trap
        > - 100R//10uH in series with 10nF/100R -

        Oops!

        Should read "- 100R//10uH in series with 10nF -"

        In other words, the amplifier output load is
        100R paralleled by 10uH, in series with 10nF.

        And that acts as a broadly-tuned series trap
        roughly centred on MW BCB, to prevent your
        SWL radio's front end being swamped by
        MW broadcasters while you are DXing.

        See the DE31 schematic, de31_loop_amp.jpg
        http://www.drmrx.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15616&d=1130372787

        in a post by Roland dk8cb, 27-10-2005, 00:26,
        #10 in thread: "Degen DE31 active loop" at
        DRM Software Radio Forums > DRM Software Radio - User Forums > Antennas
        http://www.drmrx.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1210

        or Google <dk8cb Roland de31_loop_amp.jpg>
        follow the link and scroll down just over 1/2 page to post #10.

        There's a good discussion in that thread which eventually
        gets the design worked out. Several excellent photos too.

        From tuning range calculations on the circuit and loop size,
        I deduce that:
        DE31 tunes SW 3.9 - 22 MHz with 1 turn & 1SV149
        DE31-A tunes SW high 3.6 - 22 MHz with 1 turn & 1SV149
        and SW low 1.8 - 4.5 MHz with SV149//2200pF
        TG33 tunes MW 520 - 1720 kHz with 7 turns & 1SV149

        Like the DE31, the DE34MS tunes SW 3.9 - 22 MHz
        so it is reasonable to assume that is also 1 turn & 1SV149
        but it also has a MW range 531 - 1602 kHz so perhaps
        the loop is switchable between 1 and 7 turns.

        The DE34MS's SW range is exact same as the DE31,
        giving a max/min ratio 5.64 which suggests the stray
        capacitance is minimal - in fact, it would take an
        above-spec 1SV149 to achieve it. Perhaps the tuned
        peak does not actually reach 22 MHz, or perhaps
        one is expected to "squeeze" the loop into a narrower
        diamond, lowering its inductance, to get there.

        However, DE34MS's MW range is less than the TG33,
        a ratio of only 3.02 versus 3.31, and both of these are
        much less than the SW ratio. The drop from 5.64 can
        be explained simply by the self-capacitance of a
        bundled winding compared to a single turn, but why
        the DE34MS's MW range starts higher than the TG33
        (531 vs 520) but finishes lower (1602 vs 1720) isn't
        explained just by extra stray capacitance: that would
        _reduce_ both values.

        So there is still something to explain about the MW
        loops. Does DE34MS perhaps have one less turn
        than TG33 plus some band-setting fixed capacitance
        or is there a previously unsuspected band-setting fixed
        capacitor in the TG33 which is different in the DE34MS?


        Regards, LenW
      • Fraser
        Hi Len, Please see my ost on the internals of the DE31MS loop head. The MW position utilses a bulk inductor to increase the the effective loop inductance. This
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 8, 2007
          Hi Len,

          Please see my ost on the internals of the DE31MS loop head.

          The MW position utilses a bulk inductor to increase the the effective
          loop inductance. This may explain the odd ratio results with this loop
          when compared to the TG33 MW only version ?

          Fraser
        • John Stumm
          ... I beg to differ! Here s a clip from a post i made in the ferriterodexperimenters group last may. A picture is include in the photos section in my ferroids
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 8, 2007
            --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, Richards <jruing@...> wrote:
            >
            > Can you give me an elementary explanation as to why or how
            > that would prevent one from replacing the wire loop with
            > another type or size loop? Can I not wire in, say, a bigger
            > loop and use it with the varactor inside the control unit?
            >
            > THANKS /// RIchards ///
            > ==============================================================
            >
            > Marc wrote:
            >
            > > You can't . There is a varactor inside...

            I beg to differ! Here's a clip from a post i made in the
            ferriterodexperimenters group last may.
            A picture is include in the photos section in my ferroids file.
            Only difference is that it was made for the DE31:

            I have performed further test on the Degen DE31 coupled to my
            smallest ferrite
            loop. Sensitivity is almost the same as the Palomar although the
            noise rejection
            isn't as good. The reason is more than likely that were dealing with
            a single
            ended input vs the balanced input the Palomar affords.

            Here is an update of the Degen loop amplifier schematic. (courtesy of
            the DRM
            software radio forum)

            The transistor is a 2SK544 MOSFET (Idss group E) with y21 = 11 mS,
            Idss = 2.5 to
            6 mA, very low Crss, get its datasheet here.

            The tuning diode is a 1S149 or 1SV149 (equivalent) AM tuning diode,
            get its
            datasheet here.

            Latest Update: Latest measurements made by our forum member Funkerberg
            (thanks!), indicate that L1 = 10 uH and C2 = 10 nF which yields a low-
            Q series
            resonant circuit for mediumwave at the drain of the FET, more or less
            shortening
            mediumwave signals to ground.
            C1 = 10 nF, it acts as an RF short.

            Assuming a lossless RF decoupling circuit in the battery box, the RF
            voltage
            gain for shortwave signals with a receiver load of 500 Ohms is about
            0.9, it
            falls to about 0.36 if a receiver with an input impedance of 50 Ohms
            is
            connected. However, more signal power is transferred in case of the
            50 Ohm
            receiver since the impedance mismatch is smaller.
            If maximum sensitivity is desired on a receiver with a 50 Ohm input,
            a 2:1
            impedance transformer could be used to transform the loop amplifier's
            output
            impedance (100 Ohms, established by R1) to the receiver's input
            impedance.
            Similarily, a 1:4 impedance transformer could be used to transform
            the loop
            amplifier's output impedance to a high impedance receiver input in
            case maximum
            sensitivity is desired.
            Link to Schematic:
            http://www.drmrx.org/forum/attachment.php?
            attachmentid=15616&d=1130372787

            John
          • starayzzz
            ... similiar diameter should give a similiar coverage range, the thing to watch out for is if Degen designed the active element to compensate for that metal
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 8, 2007
              --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Stevenson"
              <portstevos@...> wrote:
              >
              > Yes, a different diameter wire will affect the frequency range but a
              similiar diameter should give a similiar coverage range, the thing to
              watch out for is if Degen designed the active element to compensate
              for that metal telescopic rod support that goes horizontal through
              it's midway point, getting rid of that metal support and then using
              stiffer motor rewind wire means a support is no longer necessary but
              it may change the tuning for the same diameter loop without the metal
              support!
              >
              > Will be an interesting experiment that I hope to carry out this
              coming weekend!
              >
              > Best wishes!
              >

              I untied the knots, desoldered one connector and slipped off that
              telescoping element when I got my DE31, so I have no baseline, [I've
              never seen a quadratic element with such a diagonal across it before
              and assumed the telescope to be an engineering/marketing compromise]
              I'm using #4 straws with a broken fishing rod tip inside... what I do
              notice is directivity when the ant is a few feet within the window,
              this is most evident when adjusting/rotating the ant to best receive
              DRM signals... perhaps you may decide to check out the directivity of
              the antenna with the metal telescoping element installed then compare
              with your non-metallic spacer solution.


              Best regards, Steve
            • Len Warner
              ... Thanks for your excellent efforts, Fraser. I shall download the picture in a moment... got it :-) Do you know if the TG33 MW-only loop is single-turn plus
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 8, 2007
                At 12:03 am ((PST)) Thu Feb 8, 2007, Fraser wrote:
                >Please see my post on the internals of the DE31MS loop head.

                Thanks for your excellent efforts, Fraser. I shall
                download the picture in a moment... got it :-)

                Do you know if the TG33 MW-only loop is
                single-turn plus a series inductor too?

                Sorry if I appeared to ignore or contradict your
                earlier post: I receive the Digest, so I'm just
                playing catch-up now.

                I had overlooked the possibility of inductance in
                series with the loop. Which is most remiss of
                me, since I was recently looking at the reference
                design for a receiver chip which used the same
                technique to switch the ferrite rod aerial from
                MW to LW. So no excuses ;-).

                As you say, not the most efficient, however...
                ...I happen to have been looking at several
                band-pass filter designs and one suggested
                a Q of 30 for commercial bobbin-cored inductors
                vs 100 for hand-wound ferrite toroids - and both
                gave acceptable insertion loss in an aerial
                preselector.

                [On the other hand, I have seen bobbin inductors
                condemned as having much lower Q, down into
                single figures, so I guess "it all depends" - on the
                method of measurement, too :-(.]

                I suspect much better than 100 is possible with
                a carefully sized and wound toroid. Alternatively,
                Q in the region of 1000 is possible in an air-cored
                solenoid - making a good padding coil for a fixed
                location but rather poor luggage.

                For a tuned loop a Q of 30 is a bit low but 100 is
                quite reasonable. Remember that the higher the Q,
                the more often a SWL will have to re-tune the aerial
                while searching HF, at high Q it becomes tricky to
                peak the loop on the receiver frequency and audio
                sidebands can be clipped, and at extreme Q CW
                signals will ring - and the tuning drift will probably
                make it unusable.

                Some designs include a switched or variable
                Q-spoiler resistor across the tuned circuit to make
                the loop more friendly to operate.

                Better to have spare performance in hand (and
                then be able to discard some) than be found
                wanting, but no need to chase the ultimate and
                find it unusable.

                BTW, for those tempted to rebuild their loop,
                be mindful that the cute little low-capacitance
                mosfet has no internal gate static protection,
                so a permanent RL shunt across the loop
                terminals in case the external loop should
                ever be disconnected could be a good idea.


                Regards, LenW
              • Michael Stevenson
                Thanks for the suggestion Steve, yes, I will do a number of tests and comparisons, it will be interesting and fun! Best wishes! Michael S ... From: starayzzz
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 8, 2007
                  Thanks for the suggestion Steve, yes, I will do a number of tests and comparisons, it will be interesting and fun!

                  Best wishes!

                  Michael S
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: starayzzz
                  To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:51 PM
                  Subject: [loopantennas] Re: New Degen DE31MS Loop Antenna


                  --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Stevenson"
                  <portstevos@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Yes, a different diameter wire will affect the frequency range but a
                  similiar diameter should give a similiar coverage range, the thing to
                  watch out for is if Degen designed the active element to compensate
                  for that metal telescopic rod support that goes horizontal through
                  it's midway point, getting rid of that metal support and then using
                  stiffer motor rewind wire means a support is no longer necessary but
                  it may change the tuning for the same diameter loop without the metal
                  support!
                  >
                  > Will be an interesting experiment that I hope to carry out this
                  coming weekend!
                  >
                  > Best wishes!
                  >

                  I untied the knots, desoldered one connector and slipped off that
                  telescoping element when I got my DE31, so I have no baseline, [I've
                  never seen a quadratic element with such a diagonal across it before
                  and assumed the telescope to be an engineering/marketing compromise]
                  I'm using #4 straws with a broken fishing rod tip inside... what I do
                  notice is directivity when the ant is a few feet within the window,
                  this is most evident when adjusting/rotating the ant to best receive
                  DRM signals... perhaps you may decide to check out the directivity of
                  the antenna with the metal telescoping element installed then compare
                  with your non-metallic spacer solution.

                  Best regards, Steve





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Marc
                  ... The best radio to see directivity is the Sony 2001D ... Other rdio s aren t that good on signal meters.. (I have lots of analogue radio s... and a
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 8, 2007
                    starayzzz schreef:
                    > I untied the knots, desoldered one connector and slipped off that
                    > telescoping element when I got my DE31, so I have no baseline, [I've
                    > never seen a quadratic element with such a diagonal across it before
                    > and assumed the telescope to be an engineering/marketing compromise]
                    > I'm using #4 straws with a broken fishing rod tip inside... what I do
                    > notice is directivity when the ant is a few feet within the window,
                    > this is most evident when adjusting/rotating the ant to best receive
                    > DRM signals...


                    The best radio to see directivity is the Sony 2001D ...

                    Other rdio's aren't that good on signal meters..

                    (I have lots of analogue radio's... and a panasonix 65rfd)

                    Marc
                  • Lester Kleidon
                    ... compare to the Quantum Loop (Gerry Thomas) , or the now defunct Kiwa Loop ? Also-- Does PHASING work as well on shortwave , as it does on MW ? I do alot
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 9, 2007
                      --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner <novost@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > At 12:03 am ((PST)) Thu Feb 8, 2007, Fraser wrote:
                      > >Please see my post on the internals of the DE31MS loop head.
                      >
                      > Thanks for your excellent efforts, Fraser. I shall
                      > download the picture in a moment... got it :-)
                      >
                      > Do you know if the TG33 MW-only loop is
                      > single-turn plus a series inductor too?
                      >
                      > Sorry if I appeared to ignore or contradict your
                      > earlier post: I receive the Digest, so I'm just
                      > playing catch-up now.
                      >
                      > I had overlooked the possibility of inductance in
                      > series with the loop. Which is most remiss of
                      > me, since I was recently looking at the reference
                      > design for a receiver chip which used the same
                      > technique to switch the ferrite rod aerial from
                      > MW to LW. So no excuses ;-).
                      >
                      > As you say, not the most efficient, however...
                      > ...I happen to have been looking at several
                      > band-pass filter designs and one suggested
                      > a Q of 30 for commercial bobbin-cored inductors
                      > vs 100 for hand-wound ferrite toroids - and both
                      > gave acceptable insertion loss in an aerial
                      > preselector.
                      >
                      > [On the other hand, I have seen bobbin inductors
                      > condemned as having much lower Q, down into
                      > single figures, so I guess "it all depends" - on the
                      > method of measurement, too :-(.]
                      >
                      > I suspect much better than 100 is possible with
                      > a carefully sized and wound toroid. Alternatively,
                      > Q in the region of 1000 is possible in an air-cored
                      > solenoid - making a good padding coil for a fixed
                      > location but rather poor luggage.
                      >
                      > For a tuned loop a Q of 30 is a bit low but 100 is
                      > quite reasonable. Remember that the higher the Q,
                      > the more often a SWL will have to re-tune the aerial
                      > while searching HF, at high Q it becomes tricky to
                      > peak the loop on the receiver frequency and audio
                      > sidebands can be clipped, and at extreme Q CW
                      > signals will ring - and the tuning drift will probably
                      > make it unusable.
                      >
                      > Some designs include a switched or variable
                      > Q-spoiler resistor across the tuned circuit to make
                      > the loop more friendly to operate.
                      >
                      > Better to have spare performance in hand (and
                      > then be able to discard some) than be found
                      > wanting, but no need to chase the ultimate and
                      > find it unusable.
                      >
                      > BTW, for those tempted to rebuild their loop,
                      > be mindful that the cute little low-capacitance
                      > mosfet has no internal gate static protection,
                      > so a permanent RL shunt across the loop
                      > terminals in case the external loop should
                      > ever be disconnected could be a good idea.
                      >
                      >
                      > Regards, LenW
                      >I'm seeing alot of buzz about this new loop . How does this loop
                      compare to the Quantum Loop (Gerry Thomas) , or the now defunct Kiwa
                      Loop ? Also-- Does PHASING work as well on shortwave , as it does on
                      MW ? I do alot of phasing of 2 antennas to get sharp nulls ,
                      sometimes with unbelievable results ! ---Lester J Kleidon--
                    • Fraser
                      Hi Len, I have uploaded a picture of the TG33 loop head unit for you. You can find it n the photos area under TG33 loop. As you will see, the TG33 MW loop uses
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 9, 2007
                        Hi Len,

                        I have uploaded a picture of the TG33 loop head unit for you.

                        You can find it n the photos area under TG33 loop.

                        As you will see, the TG33 MW loop uses an inductor in much the same
                        way as the TG34/DE31MS except this one is red in colour.
                        The TG33 uses a single turn loop construction (the cores are soldered
                        together to increase the cross section).

                        Regards

                        Fraser


                        --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner <novost@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > At 12:03 am ((PST)) Thu Feb 8, 2007, Fraser wrote:
                        > >Please see my post on the internals of the DE31MS loop head.
                        >
                        > Thanks for your excellent efforts, Fraser. I shall
                        > download the picture in a moment... got it :-)
                        >
                        > Do you know if the TG33 MW-only loop is
                        > single-turn plus a series inductor too?
                        >
                        > Sorry if I appeared to ignore or contradict your
                        > earlier post: I receive the Digest, so I'm just
                        > playing catch-up now.
                        >
                        > I had overlooked the possibility of inductance in
                        > series with the loop. Which is most remiss of
                        > me, since I was recently looking at the reference
                        > design for a receiver chip which used the same
                        > technique to switch the ferrite rod aerial from
                        > MW to LW. So no excuses ;-).
                        >
                        > As you say, not the most efficient, however...
                        > ...I happen to have been looking at several
                        > band-pass filter designs and one suggested
                        > a Q of 30 for commercial bobbin-cored inductors
                        > vs 100 for hand-wound ferrite toroids - and both
                        > gave acceptable insertion loss in an aerial
                        > preselector.
                        >
                        > [On the other hand, I have seen bobbin inductors
                        > condemned as having much lower Q, down into
                        > single figures, so I guess "it all depends" - on the
                        > method of measurement, too :-(.]
                        >
                        > I suspect much better than 100 is possible with
                        > a carefully sized and wound toroid. Alternatively,
                        > Q in the region of 1000 is possible in an air-cored
                        > solenoid - making a good padding coil for a fixed
                        > location but rather poor luggage.
                        >
                        > For a tuned loop a Q of 30 is a bit low but 100 is
                        > quite reasonable. Remember that the higher the Q,
                        > the more often a SWL will have to re-tune the aerial
                        > while searching HF, at high Q it becomes tricky to
                        > peak the loop on the receiver frequency and audio
                        > sidebands can be clipped, and at extreme Q CW
                        > signals will ring - and the tuning drift will probably
                        > make it unusable.
                        >
                        > Some designs include a switched or variable
                        > Q-spoiler resistor across the tuned circuit to make
                        > the loop more friendly to operate.
                        >
                        > Better to have spare performance in hand (and
                        > then be able to discard some) than be found
                        > wanting, but no need to chase the ultimate and
                        > find it unusable.
                        >
                        > BTW, for those tempted to rebuild their loop,
                        > be mindful that the cute little low-capacitance
                        > mosfet has no internal gate static protection,
                        > so a permanent RL shunt across the loop
                        > terminals in case the external loop should
                        > ever be disconnected could be a good idea.
                        >
                        >
                        > Regards, LenW
                        >
                      • Fraser
                        Sorry I can t compare the DE31MS to th eloops that you have specified as I do not own them I can, however state the following - The Degen loops are cheap and
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 9, 2007
                          Sorry I can't compare the DE31MS to th eloops that you have specified
                          as I do not own them I can, however state the following -

                          The Degen loops are cheap and cheerful, They are not the best made
                          units but are good value for money if portability is desired.

                          I have compared my DE31 to a Sony AN-LP1 and an AOR LA320. In both
                          cases it produced inferior signals. You do tend to get what you pay
                          for with these commercial active loops but no one can argue with the
                          value for money (VFM) aspect of the Degen series. I probably couldn't
                          build such an active loop for the price I paid (DE31 $16 delivered
                          from China).

                          I consider the Degen loops to be a useful addition to my loop arsenal
                          for portable work but they are not the best in my collection by a
                          long way.

                          It is interesting to note that the Sony LP1 also uses a single turn
                          loop and unbalanced FET amplifier. It's performance is excellent so
                          it would appear that the Sony uses a better pre-amplifier design.

                          Regards

                          Fraser
                        • Michael Stevenson
                          Howdy, I have found following indepth experiments today that the Degen DE31MS has a far superior tuning box compared to the standard 31, the MS version has
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 9, 2007
                            Howdy,

                            I have found following indepth experiments today that the Degen DE31MS has a far superior tuning box compared to the standard 31, the MS version has better gain and slightly better signal to noise ratio which in some cases compares to or beats my outdoor antennas, see my later post coming up today!

                            Best to all!

                            Michael S
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Fraser
                            To: loopantennas@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 11:17 AM
                            Subject: [loopantennas] Re: New Degen DE31MS Loop Antenna


                            Sorry I can't compare the DE31MS to th eloops that you have specified
                            as I do not own them I can, however state the following -

                            The Degen loops are cheap and cheerful, They are not the best made
                            units but are good value for money if portability is desired.

                            I have compared my DE31 to a Sony AN-LP1 and an AOR LA320. In both
                            cases it produced inferior signals. You do tend to get what you pay
                            for with these commercial active loops but no one can argue with the
                            value for money (VFM) aspect of the Degen series. I probably couldn't
                            build such an active loop for the price I paid (DE31 $16 delivered
                            from China).

                            I consider the Degen loops to be a useful addition to my loop arsenal
                            for portable work but they are not the best in my collection by a
                            long way.

                            It is interesting to note that the Sony LP1 also uses a single turn
                            loop and unbalanced FET amplifier. It's performance is excellent so
                            it would appear that the Sony uses a better pre-amplifier design.

                            Regards

                            Fraser





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Lester Kleidon
                            Once Again , The knowledge that s shared out here is amazing ! I like to listen to the AM (MW) Band . I enjoy digging DX out from under our 50KW Blowtorches !
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 10, 2007
                              Once Again , The knowledge that's shared out here is amazing ! I like
                              to listen to the AM (MW) Band . I enjoy digging DX out from under our
                              50KW Blowtorches ! I generally use an amplified whip (or "short-
                              wire") phased against a loop antenna-- usually also amplified !
                              I'ved had good luck with the the Select-a-tenna , Although the signal
                              doesn't compare to the KIWA LOOP which I've used before . I'm really
                              surprised that know one has has released a newer version of the KIXA
                              Antenna ! Anyway -- THANKS AGAIN !
                              __LESTER THANKS AGAIN -- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, "Fraser"
                              <fraser.castle@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Sorry I can't compare the DE31MS to th eloops that you have
                              specified
                              > as I do not own them I can, however state the following -
                              >
                              > The Degen loops are cheap and cheerful, They are not the best made
                              > units but are good value for money if portability is desired.
                              >
                              > I have compared my DE31 to a Sony AN-LP1 and an AOR LA320. In both
                              > cases it produced inferior signals. You do tend to get what you pay
                              > for with these commercial active loops but no one can argue with
                              the
                              > value for money (VFM) aspect of the Degen series. I probably
                              couldn't
                              > build such an active loop for the price I paid (DE31 $16 delivered
                              > from China).
                              >
                              > I consider the Degen loops to be a useful addition to my loop
                              arsenal
                              > for portable work but they are not the best in my collection by a
                              > long way.
                              >
                              > It is interesting to note that the Sony LP1 also uses a single turn
                              > loop and unbalanced FET amplifier. It's performance is excellent so
                              > it would appear that the Sony uses a better pre-amplifier design.
                              >
                              > Regards
                              >
                              > Fraser
                              >
                            • Richards
                              Top posting has some significant benefits. Top posting is a courtesy to handicapped people. It is difficult, sometimes painful, for some folks to have to
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 13, 2007
                                Top posting has some significant benefits.

                                Top posting is a courtesy to handicapped people. It is difficult,
                                sometimes painful, for some folks to have to scroll down to the bottom
                                of a long message, which everyone has already read, anyway, just to get
                                to a reply - and many times the reply is short, like saying "I agree"
                                or "right on" and so forth. Most folks can remember the thread without
                                having to read it ever time there is a reply. It is often courteous to
                                clip the original post just to give the drift of what one is trying to
                                reply to, as it saves time, space, and bandwidth.

                                Just my take. /// Richards ///
                                ==================================================

                                Len Warner wrote:
                                > [I wish people who wanted reasoned argument
                                > wouldn't make it more difficult by top-posting
                                > and disrupting the logic of the thread ;-) ]
                                >
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