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Loop / Whip Phasing

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  • ihmeyers19
    Has anyone experimented with phasing a rotatable loop against an active whip or vertical? I have a Pixel Loop and a DX Engineering vertical and I have just
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 19, 2013
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      Has anyone experimented with phasing a rotatable loop against an active whip or vertical?  I have a Pixel Loop and a DX Engineering vertical and I have just begin playing around with phasing them through a DXE NCC-1 phaser.  I often like then end results but it's a lot to adjust

      a) loop direction
      b) loop gain
      c) vertical gain
      d) phase
      e) relative balance between the 2

      Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

      73,
      Ian
      Florida,USA
    • Andrew Ikin
      Ian, wrote on October 20. Has anyone experimented with phasing a rotatable loop against an active whip or vertical? I have a Pixel Loop and a DX Engineering
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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        Ian, wrote on October 20.
         
        Has anyone experimented with phasing a rotatable loop against an active whip or vertical?  I have a Pixel Loop and a DX Engineering vertical and I have just begin playing around with phasing them through a DXE NCC-1 phaser.  I often like then end results but it's a lot to adjust

        a) loop direction
        b) loop gain
        c) vertical gain
        d) phase
        e) relative balance between the 2

        Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

         
        Ian,  I used to do something similar to what you have described many years ago. I soon came to the conclusion that the whole excise is a waste of time. The main reasons are; the achievable null is too narrow in relation to frequency. The nulls are not stable with time i.e. small variations is signal arrival angles. The later makes the system unusable for HF. The DXE phaser is not suitable for wideband operation i.e. it can't provide  a constant phase shift with varying frequency. This would be a essential requirement when phasing a loop with a whip because a constant 90 degree phasing +/- any antenna phase variation is required.
         
        Maybe someone else in the group could recommend a 2 input SDR that could provide constant phasing verses frequency????
         
        A small improvement can be had by using a longwire antenna for the Vertical instead of an active Whip.
         
        If your interest is mainly phasing for LW and MW and you want the phasing to the be stable over a wide bandwidth, then you need to use identical antennas and a variable crossfire phasing unit. For example the type used on some of Wellbrook's Phased arrays.
         
        A compact  360 degree system could be a Wellbrook Phaser and 4 Clifton Labs Active Whips, these offer much better IMD performance compared to Dxe whips. Or you could use 4 ALA100s. The recommended minimum antenna spacing is 20m
         
        However, if you just need a wideband rotateable antenna with a cardioid pattern, then consider a small Flag antenna. This can be home made or one could use commercial Head Amplifier.
         
         
        73
         
        Andrew
         
      • roberts50000
        I have had outstanding results using a Dallas Lankford-designed phaser on medium wave using a rotatable M0AYF loop and a Steve Ratzlaff active whip both
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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          I have had outstanding results using a Dallas Lankford-designed phaser on medium wave
          using a rotatable M0AYF loop and a Steve Ratzlaff active whip both located in my back yard
          about 30 ft apart. Steve kindly loaned me one of his Lankford phasers to try and it is the
          best one I have ever used.
           
          You can read about the Lankford MW #2 Phaser at this address :
           
           
          The phaser in the article is optimized for medium wave but it can be easily modified
          for SW use also. The one I am using has six bands from the 300 kHz to 14 mHz range.
           
          The Lankford phaser is more forgiving than most on signal levels from each antenna
          and they don't have to be perfectly matched although you can get the best nulls
          if signal levels from each antenna are roughly equal. For best results with the phaser
          the loop should be rotated for best signal from the offending station, not a null.
           
          With the Lankford phaser I am able to null out a local station on 1490 kHz 12 miles away
          right down into  the noise level and hear another distant station on 1490 almost exactly
          180 degrees opposite, something I was never able to do with a loop antenna alone
           due to the figure 8 pattern of the loop.
           
          Once I set the Lankford phaser it remains stable for days on end.
           
          I also have a Quantum Phaser and I would rate it a very close second. The Quantum
          has only 3 controls to adjust and the settings are a little more critical, but once
          adjusted I would say the nulls are about equal to the more complicated Lankford
          phaser. If someone did not want to have to build their own phaser I would
          recommend the Quantum phaser.
           
          Using a broadband loop and an active whip are one of the best combinations
          for a phaser and requires the least spacing between the two antennas.
           
          73 - Todd WD4NGG
           
          In a message dated 10/20/2013 7:04:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, andrew.ikin@... writes:
          Ian, wrote on October 20.

          Has anyone experimented with phasing a rotatable loop against an active whip or vertical?  I have a Pixel Loop and a DX Engineering vertical and I have just begin playing around with phasing them through a DXE NCC-1 phaser.  I often like then end results but it's a lot to adjust

          a) loop direction
          b) loop gain
          c) vertical gain
          d) phase
          e) relative balance between the 2

          Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
           
        • Chris Trask
          ... I designed my own a few years ago, and I added the brief PDF file Antenna Canceller Prototype 02.pdf to the group files section. It is used with an
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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            >
            > > Has anyone experimented with phasing a rotatable loop against an active whip or vertical? I have a
            > > Pixel Loop and a DX Engineering vertical and I have just begin playing around with phasing them
            > > through a DXE NCC-1 phaser. I often like then end results but it's a lot to adjust
            > >
            > > a) loop direction
            > > b) loop gain
            > > c) vertical gain
            > > d) phase
            > > e) relative balance between the 2
            > >
            > > Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
            >
            >Ian, I used to do something similar to what you have described many years ago. I soon came to the
            >conclusion that the whole excise is a waste of time. The main reasons are; the achievable null is
            >too narrow in relation to frequency. The nulls are not stable with time i.e. small variations is
            >signal arrival angles. The later makes the system unusable for HF. The DXE phaser is not suitable
            >for wideband operation i.e. it can't provide a constant phase shift with varying frequency. This
            >would be a essential requirement when phasing a loop with a whip because a constant 90 degree
            >phasing +/- any antenna phase variation is required.
            >
            >Maybe someone else in the group could recommend a 2 input SDR that could provide constant phasing
            >verses frequency????
            >

            I designed my own a few years ago, and I added the brief PDF file "Antenna Canceller Prototype 02.pdf" to the group files section. It is used with an orthogonal pair of loops for both noise cancelling and electronic steering, and can also be used with a loop and whip combination.




            Chris
          • Chris Trask
            ... That s interesting. That entire website is blocked by the ISP that provides the WiFi service here due to malicious content. Could someone forward that
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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              >
              >I have had outstanding results using a Dallas Lankford-designed phaser on
              >medium wave
              >using a rotatable M0AYF loop and a Steve Ratzlaff active whip both located
              >in my back yard
              >about 30 ft apart. Steve kindly loaned me one of his Lankford phasers to
              >try and it is the
              >best one I have ever used.
              >
              >You can read about the Lankford MW #2 Phaser at this address :
              >
              >_http://docs7.chomikuj.pl/1992228534,PL,0,0,MW-Phaser-%232.pdf_
              >(http://docs7.chomikuj.pl/1992228534,PL,0,0,MW-Phaser-#2.pdf)
              >

              That's interesting. That entire website is blocked by the ISP that provides the WiFi service here due to malicious content. Could someone forward that PDF file to me?


              Chris
            • ihmeyers19
              Thanks for all the replies. I would love to set up some type of 4 square phased array but I think I am pushing it now with my HOA. The last place we lived the
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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                Thanks for all the replies.


                I would love to set up some type of 4 square phased array but I think I am pushing it now with my HOA.  The last place we lived the HOA made me take down all my antennas and I don't want to risk what I already have.


                Interesting comments re the DEX phase.  I have Quantum phaser packed away, haven't used it since I upgraded to the DXE unit.  I think I'll pull it out today and see how it does.


                Andy's comments re the fussiness of the nulls using this set-up is spot on .  It's why I give up using it every few days and then pack the phaser away for months.  It wasn't a good investment of $600...


                Thanks again.


                73,

                Ian



                ---In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, <loopantennas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                I have had outstanding results using a Dallas Lankford-designed phaser on medium wave
                using a rotatable M0AYF loop and a Steve Ratzlaff active whip both located in my back yard
                about 30 ft apart. Steve kindly loaned me one of his Lankford phasers to try and it is the
                best one I have ever used.
                 
                You can read about the Lankford MW #2 Phaser at this address :
                 
                 
                The phaser in the article is optimized for medium wave but it can be easily modified
                for SW use also. The one I am using has six bands from the 300 kHz to 14 mHz range.
                 
                The Lankford phaser is more forgiving than most on signal levels from each antenna
                and they don't have to be perfectly matched although you can get the best nulls
                if signal levels from each antenna are roughly equal. For best results with the phaser
                the loop should be rotated for best signal from the offending station, not a null.
                 
                With the Lankford phaser I am able to null out a local station on 1490 kHz 12 miles away
                right down into  the noise level and hear another distant station on 1490 almost exactly
                180 degrees opposite, something I was never able to do with a loop antenna alone
                 due to the figure 8 pattern of the loop.
                 
                Once I set the Lankford phaser it remains stable for days on end.
                 
                I also have a Quantum Phaser and I would rate it a very close second. The Quantum
                has only 3 controls to adjust and the settings are a little more critical, but once
                adjusted I would say the nulls are about equal to the more complicated Lankford
                phaser. If someone did not want to have to build their own phaser I would
                recommend the Quantum phaser.
                 
                Using a broadband loop and an active whip are one of the best combinations
                for a phaser and requires the least spacing between the two antennas.
                 
                73 - Todd WD4NGG
                 
                In a message dated 10/20/2013 7:04:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, andrew.ikin@... writes:
                Ian, wrote on October 20.

                Has anyone experimented with phasing a rotatable loop against an active whip or vertical?  I have a Pixel Loop and a DX Engineering vertical and I have just begin playing around with phasing them through a DXE NCC-1 phaser.  I often like then end results but it's a lot to adjust

                a) loop direction
                b) loop gain
                c) vertical gain
                d) phase
                e) relative balance between the 2

                Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
                 
              • Jim
                The schematic shows one winding of T4 shorted! Is this an error in the schematic? If not, one could eliminate T4 and just use a solid wire connection.
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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                  The schematic shows one winding of T4 shorted!
                   
                  Is this an error in the schematic?  If not, one could eliminate T4 and just use a solid wire connection.
                   
                  Thoughts?
                   
                  Jim
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 6:12 AM
                  Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Loop / Whip Phasing

                   

                  I have had outstanding results using a Dallas Lankford-designed phaser on medium wave
                  using a rotatable M0AYF loop and a Steve Ratzlaff active whip both located in my back yard
                  about 30 ft apart. Steve kindly loaned me one of his Lankford phasers to try and it is the
                  best one I have ever used.
                   
                  You can read about the Lankford MW #2 Phaser at this address :
                   
                   
                  The phaser in the article is optimized for medium wave but it can be easily modified
                  for SW use also. The one I am using has six bands from the 300 kHz to 14 mHz range.
                   
                  The Lankford phaser is more forgiving than most on signal levels from each antenna
                  and they don't have to be perfectly matched although you can get the best nulls
                  if signal levels from each antenna are roughly equal. For best results with the phaser
                  the loop should be rotated for best signal from the offending station, not a null.
                   
                  With the Lankford phaser I am able to null out a local station on 1490 kHz 12 miles away
                  right down into  the noise level and hear another distant station on 1490 almost exactly
                  180 degrees opposite, something I was never able to do with a loop antenna alone
                   due to the figure 8 pattern of the loop.
                   
                  Once I set the Lankford phaser it remains stable for days on end.
                   
                  I also have a Quantum Phaser and I would rate it a very close second. The Quantum
                  has only 3 controls to adjust and the settings are a little more critical, but once
                  adjusted I would say the nulls are about equal to the more complicated Lankford
                  phaser. If someone did not want to have to build their own phaser I would
                  recommend the Quantum phaser.
                   
                  Using a broadband loop and an active whip are one of the best combinations
                  for a phaser and requires the least spacing between the two antennas.
                   
                  73 - Todd WD4NGG
                   
                  In a message dated 10/20/2013 7:04:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, andrew.ikin@... writes:
                  Ian, wrote on October 20.

                  Has anyone experimented with phasing a rotatable loop against an active whip or vertical?  I have a Pixel Loop and a DX Engineering vertical and I have just begin playing around with phasing them through a DXE NCC-1 phaser.  I often like then end results but it's a lot to adjust

                  a) loop direction
                  b) loop gain
                  c) vertical gain
                  d) phase
                  e) relative balance between the 2

                  Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
                   

                • Chris Trask
                  ... Yes, it s an error on the schematic. Transformers T4 and T5 should be connected just as T2 and T3. Chris
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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                    >
                    >The schematic shows one winding of T4 shorted!
                    >
                    >Is this an error in the schematic? If not, one could eliminate T4 and just use a solid wire connection.
                    >
                    >Thoughts?
                    >

                    Yes, it's an error on the schematic. Transformers T4 and T5 should be connected just as T2 and T3.


                    Chris
                  • roberts50000
                    Re : The Dallas Lankford MW Phaser #2 Schematic No the wiring for the secondary of transformer T4 is NOT in error. Yes both sides of the winding are connected
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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                      Re : The Dallas Lankford MW Phaser #2 Schematic
                       
                      No the wiring for the secondary of transformer T4 is NOT in error. Yes both sides
                      of the winding are connected to ground but this is part of the phasing circuit.
                      Remember the toroid winding is at RF potential so the windings are not
                      actually "shorted" for RF.
                       
                      For example look at a one turn transmitting loop antenna. It looks like a
                      direct heavy short but NOT at RF.
                       
                      I am holding the Lankford phaser in my hands right now and both sides of the
                      T4 secondary are connected to ground. Chris Trask is in error about this
                      circuit.
                       
                      73 - Todd WD4NGG
                       
                       
                      In a message dated 10/20/2013 12:20:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jbollit@... writes:
                      The schematic shows one winding of T4 shorted!
                       
                      Is this an error in the schematic?  If not, one could eliminate T4 and just use a solid wire connection.
                       
                      Thoughts?
                       
                      Jim
                       
                    • Chris Trask
                      ... Then we should consider that the purpose of the shorted T3 is to compensate for the parasitics of T1. Then it makes sense. For those who have built this,
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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                        >
                        >Re : The Dallas Lankford MW Phaser #2 Schematic
                        >
                        >No the wiring for the secondary of transformer T4 is NOT in error. Yes
                        >both sides of the winding are connected to ground but this is part of the
                        >phasing circuit. Remember the toroid winding is at RF potential so the
                        >windings are not actually "shorted" for RF.
                        >
                        >For example look at a one turn transmitting loop antenna. It looks like a
                        >direct heavy short but NOT at RF.
                        >
                        >I am holding the Lankford phaser in my hands right now and both sides of
                        >the T4 secondary are connected to ground. Chris Trask is in error about
                        >this circuit.
                        >

                        Then we should consider that the purpose of the shorted T3 is to compensate for the parasitics of T1. Then it makes sense.

                        For those who have built this, what are the results of replacing T3 with a piece of wire?


                        Chris
                      • Jim
                        Chris, I have built one. When you say replace with a wire are you talking about a single turn through the core, or leave the other winding on T4 (at the only
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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                          Chris,
                           
                          I have built one.
                           
                          When you say "replace with a wire" are you talking about a single turn through the core, or leave the other winding on T4 (at the only winding on the core) and repalce the shorted turns with a piece of wire that does NOT pass through the torroid?
                           
                          Or is there something else you want me to try.
                           
                          I have my phaser open, here on my bench.
                           
                          Let me know.
                           
                          Jim
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 11:51 AM
                          Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Loop / Whip Phasing

                           

                          >
                          >Re : The Dallas Lankford MW Phaser #2 Schematic
                          >
                          >No the wiring for the secondary of transformer T4 is NOT in error. Yes
                          >both sides of the winding are connected to ground but this is part of the
                          >phasing circuit. Remember the toroid winding is at RF potential so the
                          >windings are not actually "shorted" for RF.
                          >
                          >For example look at a one turn transmitting loop antenna. It looks like a
                          >direct heavy short but NOT at RF.
                          >
                          >I am holding the Lankford phaser in my hands right now and both sides of
                          >the T4 secondary are connected to ground. Chris Trask is in error about
                          >this circuit.
                          >

                          Then we should consider that the purpose of the shorted T3 is to compensate for the parasitics of T1. Then it makes sense.

                          For those who have built this, what are the results of replacing T3 with a piece of wire?

                          Chris

                        • Chris Trask
                          ... Remove T3 entirely and replace the broken primary winding connection with a piece of wire. Chris
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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                            >
                            >When you say "replace with a wire" are you talking about a single turn through the core, or leave the other
                            >winding on T4 (at the only winding on the core) and repalce the shorted turns with a piece of wire that
                            >does NOT pass through the torroid?
                            >
                            >Or is there something else you want me to try.
                            >
                            >I have my phaser open, here on my bench.
                            >

                            Remove T3 entirely and replace the broken primary winding connection with a piece of wire.


                            Chris
                          • ihmeyers19
                            Todd WD4NGG: The Lankford phaser is more forgiving than most on signal levels from each antenna and they don t have to be perfectly matched although you can
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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                              Todd WD4NGG: The Lankford phaser is more forgiving than most on signal levels from each antenna
                              and they don't have to be perfectly matched although you can get the best nulls
                              if signal levels from each antenna are roughly equal. For best results with the phaser
                              the loop should be rotated for best signal from the offending station, not a null.

                              Todd,

                              So what you're saying in my case if I am looking to null all the Cuban pests S/SE of me I should point the loop S/SE and phase that against the whip rather than pointing the loop 90 degrees which weaken the Cubans considerably and phasing from there.

                              Thanks very much.

                              73,
                              Ian



                              ---In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, <christrask@...> wrote:

                              >
                              >When you say "replace with a wire" are you talking about a single turn through the core, or leave the other
                              >winding on T4 (at the only winding on the core) and repalce the shorted turns with a piece of wire that
                              >does NOT pass through the torroid?
                              >
                              >Or is there something else you want me to try.
                              >
                              >I have my phaser open, here on my bench.
                              >

                              Remove T3 entirely and replace the broken primary winding connection with a piece of wire.


                              Chris
                            • Jim
                              Chris, I will do this. Need to connect phaser to antennas per schematic and get a base line on a station. Then will do the shorted wire test. Will advise. Jim
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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                                Chris,
                                 
                                I will do this.
                                 
                                Need to connect phaser to antennas per schematic and get a base line on a station.
                                 
                                Then will do the shorted wire test.
                                 
                                Will advise.
                                 
                                Jim
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 1:11 PM
                                Subject: Re: [loopantennas] Loop / Whip Phasing

                                 

                                >
                                >When you say "replace with a wire" are you talking about a single turn through the core, or leave the other
                                >winding on T4 (at the only winding on the core) and repalce the shorted turns with a piece of wire that
                                >does NOT pass through the torroid?
                                >
                                >Or is there something else you want me to try.
                                >
                                >I have my phaser open, here on my bench.
                                >

                                Remove T3 entirely and replace the broken primary winding connection with a piece of wire.

                                Chris

                              • roberts50000
                                Hi Ian, Yes when using a loop with a phaser the loop should be pointed at the offending station or stations for maximum signal pickup, not broadside or
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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                                  Hi Ian,
                                  Yes when using a loop with a phaser the loop should be pointed at the offending
                                  station or stations for maximum signal pickup, not broadside or oriented for
                                  a null. You want Max pickup of the offending station or stations with the loop.
                                   
                                  It sounds counter-intuitive at first  to point the loop for max pickup of the station
                                  you want to null but that is what works best with the phaser.
                                   
                                  73 - Todd WD4NGG
                                   
                                  In a message dated 10/20/2013 4:19:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ihmeyers19@... writes:

                                  Todd WD4NGG: The Lankford phaser is more forgiving than most on signal levels from each antenna
                                  and they don't have to be perfectly matched although you can get the best nulls
                                  if signal levels from each antenna are roughly equal. For best results with the phaser
                                  the loop should be rotated for best signal from the offending station, not a null.

                                  Todd,

                                  So what you're saying in my case if I am looking to null all the Cuban pests S/SE of me I should point the loop S/SE and phase that against the whip rather than pointing the loop 90 degrees which weaken the Cubans considerably and phasing from there.

                                  Thanks very much.

                                  73,
                                  Ian
                                   
                                • Dean Wayman
                                  ... Pixel Pro1A Loop Cheap rotator from E.bay (for use on the loop on top of a 10 foot section of Rohn tower). MFJ Remote active antenna (12-13 feet (East) of
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 20, 2013
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                                    --- In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, <ihmeyers19@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Has anyone experimented with phasing a rotatable loop against an active whip or vertical? I have a Pixel Loop and a DX Engineering vertical and I have just begin playing around with phasing them through a DXE NCC-1 phaser. I often like then end results but it's a lot to adjust
                                    >
                                    > a) loop direction
                                    > b) loop gain
                                    > c) vertical gain
                                    > d) phase
                                    > e) relative balance between the 2
                                    >
                                    > Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
                                    >
                                    > 73,
                                    > Ian
                                    > Florida,US
                                    >I had done a lot of research online and asked a lot of questions here and on the chat for MWDX ,eventually i settled on this , I have been using this setup for 2 years :

                                    Pixel Pro1A Loop
                                    Cheap rotator from E.bay (for use on the loop on top of a 10 foot section of Rohn tower).
                                    MFJ Remote active antenna (12-13 feet (East) of the loop,and grounded with a 8 foot copper pipe).
                                    Quantum Phaser .

                                    The whole thing is 50 feet from the house fed with RG6 coax ,buried in a slit trench.

                                    At first i had trouble with what i was doing then all of a sudden one night i could chose which station i wanted to hear ,and they were 180 degrees from each other ,turns out that this setup can not handle sky-wave signals well,on those nights i just don't use the vertical or Phaser. Sky-Wave signals come from high angles so it's hard to use the null in any effective way .

                                    Has it Brought me DX ? YES!!!
                                    Was it worth it IMHO ? Yes!!

                                    You need to now that my listening position is nearly in the center of North America ,so i need to be able to have some kind of steerable antenna to get the tuff ones .I have pulled Flea power station out from under 50KW flame throwers if the conditions are good ,if they are bad i don't get much.

                                    I live 3 blocks from a 1KW station on 1350 ,there is no point DX ing until they power down at night and even then i have trouble around that Freq .

                                    My log book includes both the west and East coast (I only DX at night ),anyway you being in Florida about the only advantage i see would be Trans ocean DX as most of your signals will be coming from the W-NW direction?

                                    The most important thing i did was grounding the vertical,after that was done ,the noise floor went down on that antenna ,and when lightning strikes are near they are less noticeable.

                                    Normally i run the -20DB attenuator in the on position on the vertical ,it just seems to operate better with the pixel that way.

                                    The pixel loop is normally very quiet ,however there are some times when conditions are not favorable for it.
                                    It seems to me there is no perfect setup as far as antennas go ,but this one is pretty close?

                                    I've been told that you can have zero separation between the vertical and loop but this is where i had a structure to place my setup so i have never tried it that close? it would be interesting to try it some time.

                                    Yes it can be rather daunting to try and adjust this but after a while it becomes pretty easy ,some times no matter what you do you just can not get a clean copy ,when that happens i just move on and come back to that freq for the next 2 nights ,you would be surprised how many times I get that ID .

                                    Any other questions ? let me know :)

                                    Dean_0
                                  • ihmeyers19
                                    I read this on JD s Loop Home page: http://www.frontiernet.net/~jadale/Loop.htm (4) Also please note that a balanced loop antenna can be spoiled to a cardioid
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Oct 24, 2013
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                                      I read this on JD's Loop Home page:

                                      http://www.frontiernet.net/~jadale/Loop.htm


                                      (4) Also please note that a balanced loop antenna can be spoiled to a cardioid pattern by putting a vertical sense antenna within its field.


                                      Would some be so kind to explain to me how this would be effected?  It sounds like a great idea in theory if the f/b ratio were any good.  Where precisely would I place a whip to effect this?


                                      Thanks very much.


                                      73 and good DX,

                                      Ian

                                      Boynton Beach, Florida



                                      ---In loopantennas@yahoogroups.com, <loopantennas@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                      Hi Ian,
                                      Yes when using a loop with a phaser the loop should be pointed at the offending
                                      station or stations for maximum signal pickup, not broadside or oriented for
                                      a null. You want Max pickup of the offending station or stations with the loop.
                                       
                                      It sounds counter-intuitive at first  to point the loop for max pickup of the station
                                      you want to null but that is what works best with the phaser.
                                       
                                      73 - Todd WD4NGG
                                       
                                      In a message dated 10/20/2013 4:19:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ihmeyers19@... writes:

                                      Todd WD4NGG: The Lankford phaser is more forgiving than most on signal levels from each antenna
                                      and they don't have to be perfectly matched although you can get the best nulls
                                      if signal levels from each antenna are roughly equal. For best results with the phaser
                                      the loop should be rotated for best signal from the offending station, not a null.

                                      Todd,

                                      So what you're saying in my case if I am looking to null all the Cuban pests S/SE of me I should point the loop S/SE and phase that against the whip rather than pointing the loop 90 degrees which weaken the Cubans considerably and phasing from there.

                                      Thanks very much.

                                      73,
                                      Ian
                                       
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