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translation exercise...

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  • Allan Bailey
    I know this 1st try is crap, please correct and suggest a better way of translating or lojban-ifying the song. ================ This is the song that never
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 27, 2002
      I know this 1st try is crap, please correct and suggest a better way of
      translating or lojban-ifying the song.


      ================
      This is the song that never ends,
      It just goes on and on my friends,
      Some people started singing it not knowing what it was
      And they"ll continue singing it forever just because,

      ====
      le selsa'a cu na sisti
      ri ranji ije ranji noi mi pendo

      le prenu co'a sanga le selsa'a poi ri na djuno ru

      .ije ko'e ke'u sanga le selsa'a

      ================

      co'o mi'e .alyn.
    • Robin Lee Powell
      ... I m assuming you want to preserve meter, so this isn t a perfect translation of the meaning. dei poi selsanga cu na sisti ri ranji ranji doi pendo le prenu
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 27, 2002
        On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 08:32:25AM -0700, Allan Bailey wrote:
        >
        > I know this 1st try is crap, please correct and suggest a better way of
        > translating or lojban-ifying the song.
        >
        >
        > ================
        > This is the song that never ends,
        > It just goes on and on my friends,
        > Some people started singing it not knowing what it was
        > And they"ll continue singing it forever just because,
        >
        > ====
        > le selsa'a cu na sisti
        > ri ranji ije ranji noi mi pendo
        >
        > le prenu co'a sanga le selsa'a poi ri na djuno ru
        >
        > .ije ko'e ke'u sanga le selsa'a
        >
        > ================

        I'm assuming you want to preserve meter, so this isn't a perfect
        translation of the meaning.

        dei poi selsanga cu na sisti
        ri ranji ranji doi pendo
        le prenu co'a sanga ra gi'e na jimpe ri
        .ije py. ba ze'e ranji sanga .iku'ibo

        -Robin, who has a fair bit of practice translating songs whilst
        preserving meter.

        --
        http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ BTW, I'm male, honest.
        le datni cu djica le nu zifre .iku'i .oi le so'e datni cu to'e te pilno
        je xlali -- RLP http://www.lojban.org/
      • Rob Speer
        First of all, I really like the idea of translating this song. I could start singing it (to people who already know I m strange) and then they d have to ask
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 27, 2002
          First of all, I really like the idea of translating this song. I could
          start singing it (to people who already know I'm strange) and then
          they'd have to ask what the heck language that was.

          On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 08:32:25AM -0700, Allan Bailey wrote:
          > le selsa'a cu na sisti
          "The song does not end".

          For "_This_ is the song that does not end", you would do something like
          "dei me le selsa'a poi na sisti". (At first I was going to put "ti", but
          "this" doesn't refer to anything being indicated, but the actual words
          being sung.)

          > ri ranji ije ranji noi mi pendo

          "ri ranji ije ranji" means "It persists, and something persists". For
          "it persists and persists", you would use "ri ranji _gi'e_ ranji".

          Then again, I'm not certain that idiom works at all in Lojban. I think
          "ri ranji cai" (it continues [intense!]) would work better.

          With "noi" I assume you mean "doi".

          Though "mi" is glossed as "my", you can't use it like that alone (which
          is a common gotcha for anyone who has learned, say, Spanish). You need
          "lemi pendo".

          > le prenu co'a sanga le selsa'a poi ri na djuno ru
          For "some people" I would say "lo prenu".
          "le selsa'a" could be expressed as "sy", and then the whole part "lo
          prenu co'a sanga sy" actually fits into the song.

          With the "poi ri na djuno ru", the whole line means "The people start
          singing the song which doesn't know it". The "poi" should probably be
          after "prenu", and should be "noi" because it isn't necessary to
          determine who they are. Of course, this thoroughly mangles the line.

          > .ije ko'e ke'u sanga le selsa'a

          "ko'e" hasn't been assigned yet.
          "ke'u" works here, but it's a modifier that should go after "sanga".
          And then you need the phrase which makes the song loop around - "ki'u le
          du'u" would be the most accurate version of "because..." and would fit
          grammatically with the beginning of the song.

          Now I've started thinking about how to shuffle words around to make it
          actually fit the tune. Here's one possible version:

          dei na'e sisti selsa'a
          (This is a not-ceasing song.)
          .ije ri ranji sai za'a
          (And it continues [intense!], I observe.)
          [The "my friend" part of the original song is really just there to
          make it rhyme, so "za'a" can be used for the same purpose.]
          .i lo prenu co'a sanga sy .i ra na djuno ru
          (Some people start singing it. They don't know that.)
          ["la'ede'u" would be more correct than "ru", but there's no way in
          heck that will fit.]
          [".i lo" will have to be crammed onto the same note, or the rhythm
          changed slightly.]
          .i caku py ci'iroi sanga ki'u le du'u
          (Now they sing it an infinite number of times because...)

          Here's the song with the stress and all pauses marked:

          dei NA'e SISti SELsa'A [SELsa'A is horrible pronunciation. I claim
          artistic license.]
          .iJE ri RANji SAI za'A
          .ilo PREnu CO'a SANga SY .i RA na DJUno RU
          .i CAku PY. ci'Iroi SANga KI'u LE du'U [The strange accent on "le
          du'u" is allowed.]

          Again, I like the idea! .ui!
          --
          mu'o mi'e rab.spir.
        • Jorge Llambias
          la rab.spir cusku di e ... I think ending with {le du u} is a great idea, but I don t like the misplaced accents, (and also, since the song never ends they
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 27, 2002
            la rab.spir cusku di'e

            >Here's the song with the stress and all pauses marked:
            >
            >dei NA'e SISti SELsa'A [SELsa'A is horrible pronunciation. I claim
            > artistic license.]
            >.iJE ri RANji SAI za'A
            >.ilo PREnu CO'a SANga SY .i RA na DJUno RU
            >.i CAku PY. ci'Iroi SANga KI'u LE du'U [The strange accent on "le
            > du'u" is allowed.]
            >
            >Again, I like the idea! .ui!

            I think ending with {le du'u} is a great idea, but I don't
            like the misplaced accents, (and also, since the song
            never ends they sing it only once, not an infinite number
            of times) so here is my version:

            ia DEI selSA'a ZE'e BA
            i RANji LO'e VITno UA
            i LO la'E di'U nalDJUno CO'a SANga RU
            gi'E ba CA'o ZE'e SANga KI'u LE du'U

            mu'o mi'e xorxes


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          • Robert LeChevalier
            ... To get the rhythm to fit dei selsa a nalsisti ... You need an .i at the beginning. .i doi pendo ri ranji or if the vocative is unneeded .i ri ci iroi ranji
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 27, 2002
              At 02:59 PM 8/27/02 -0400, Rob Speer wrote:
              >First of all, I really like the idea of translating this song. I could
              >start singing it (to people who already know I'm strange) and then
              >they'd have to ask what the heck language that was.
              >
              >On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 08:32:25AM -0700, Allan Bailey wrote:
              > > le selsa'a cu na sisti
              >"The song does not end".
              >
              >For "_This_ is the song that does not end", you would do something like
              >"dei me le selsa'a poi na sisti". (At first I was going to put "ti", but
              >"this" doesn't refer to anything being indicated, but the actual words
              >being sung.)

              To get the rhythm to fit
              dei selsa'a nalsisti

              > > ri ranji ije ranji noi mi pendo
              >
              >"ri ranji ije ranji" means "It persists, and something persists". For
              >"it persists and persists", you would use "ri ranji _gi'e_ ranji".

              You need an .i at the beginning.

              .i doi pendo ri ranji
              or if the vocative is unneeded
              .i ri ci'iroi ranji

              Your version below is OK too, but I think mine scans better for the first
              two lines.

              Now I've started thinking about how to shuffle words around to make it
              >actually fit the tune. Here's one possible version:
              >
              >dei na'e sisti selsa'a
              >(This is a not-ceasing song.)
              >.ije ri ranji sai za'a
              >(And it continues [intense!], I observe.)
              > [The "my friend" part of the original song is really just there to
              > make it rhyme, so "za'a" can be used for the same purpose.]
              >.i lo prenu co'a sanga sy .i ra na djuno ru
              >(Some people start singing it. They don't know that.)
              > ["la'ede'u" would be more correct than "ru", but there's no way in
              > heck that will fit.]
              > [".i lo" will have to be crammed onto the same note, or the rhythm
              > changed slightly.]
              >.i caku py ci'iroi sanga ki'u le du'u
              >(Now they sing it an infinite number of times because...)
              >
              >Here's the song with the stress and all pauses marked:
              >
              >dei NA'e SISti SELsa'A [SELsa'A is horrible pronunciation. I claim
              > artistic license.]
              >.iJE ri RANji SAI za'A
              >.ilo PREnu CO'a SANga SY .i RA na DJUno RU
              >.i CAku PY. ci'Iroi SANga KI'u LE du'U [The strange accent on "le
              > du'u" is allowed.]
              >
              >Again, I like the idea! .ui!
              >--
              >mu'o mi'e rab.spir.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

              --
              lojbab lojbab@...
              Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
              2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
              Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
            • Rob Speer
              ... [...] ... Are you thinking of a different tune than I am? Here s the English lyrics as I know them: This is the song that doesn t end It just goes on and
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 27, 2002
                On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 08:26:48PM -0400, Robert LeChevalier wrote:
                > To get the rhythm to fit
                > dei selsa'a nalsisti

                [...]
                > .i doi pendo ri ranji
                > or if the vocative is unneeded
                > .i ri ci'iroi ranji
                >
                > Your version below is OK too, but I think mine scans better for the first
                > two lines.

                Are you thinking of a different tune than I am?

                Here's the English lyrics as I know them:

                This is the song that doesn't end
                It just goes on and on, my friend

                ...so they're both 8 syllables. You have 7 syllables in each of your
                lines.

                --
                mu'o mi'e rab.spir
              • Bob LeChevalier
                ... No. ... I use a syllable-length pause (or drag out the i slightly). The English It just is the length of a single syllable when I sing it, both
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 27, 2002
                  At 09:03 PM 8/27/02 -0400, Rob Speer wrote:
                  >On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 08:26:48PM -0400, Robert LeChevalier wrote:
                  > > To get the rhythm to fit
                  > > dei selsa'a nalsisti
                  >
                  >[...]
                  > > .i doi pendo ri ranji
                  > > or if the vocative is unneeded
                  > > .i ri ci'iroi ranji
                  > >
                  > > Your version below is OK too, but I think mine scans better for the first
                  > > two lines.
                  >
                  >Are you thinking of a different tune than I am?

                  No.

                  >Here's the English lyrics as I know them:
                  >
                  >This is the song that doesn't end
                  >It just goes on and on, my friend
                  >
                  >...so they're both 8 syllables. You have 7 syllables in each of your
                  >lines.

                  I use a syllable-length pause (or drag out the "i" slightly). The
                  English "It just" is the length of a single syllable when I sing it, both
                  unstressed. (The version I know has "And it goes on and...", but same
                  difference). English rhythmic poetry is stress-timed rather than
                  syllable-timed, so when translating English into Lojban, the important
                  thing is to match the metric feet, not the syllable count.

                  The following is how I scan the rhythm of the song in feet. The number of
                  unstressed syllables before the first stress can vary without any problem
                  (though it seems to sound better with at least 3 for the last two lines),
                  and in general extra unstressed syllables do not mess up rhythm either
                  (which is good because Lojban generally requires more syllables than
                  English to express the same concept).

                  ---!-!-!
                  ---!-!-!
                  ---!-!-!-!-!-!
                  ---!-!-!-!-!-!

                  lojbab

                  --
                  lojbab lojbab@...
                  Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
                  2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
                  Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
                • Jorge Llambias
                  la rab.spir cusku di e ... Ok, I don t know the song, I was just following the pattern you had. ... Good, but, I prefer {ca} instead of {cu}. I don t like
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 27, 2002
                    la rab.spir cusku di'e

                    > > ia DEI selSA'a ZE'e BA
                    > > i RANji LO'e VITno UA
                    > > i LO la'E di'U nalDJUno CO'a SANga RU
                    > > gi'E ba CA'o ZE'e SANga KI'u LE du'U
                    >
                    >Because of what the tune does, you have an illegal pause in the middle
                    >of "la'e".

                    Ok, I don't know the song, I was just following the pattern you had.

                    >I do like the first line, except the "ia" is unnecessary.
                    >dei CU. selSA'a ZE'e BA
                    >
                    >... and in fact, since it's not required to rhyme with anything anymore,
                    >"selsa'a" could be replaced with "se sanga", which I prefer, and then
                    >the weird pause after cu isn't necessary.
                    >
                    >dei CU se SANga ZE'e BA

                    Good, but, I prefer {ca} instead of {cu}. I don't like forcing
                    a {cu} where it is not needed.

                    >The third line is just hard to understand.

                    {lo la'e di'u naldjuno} is just {lo naldjuno pe la'e di'u},
                    "some not-knowers of the above". The point of the song is that
                    people start to sing it not knowing what they're getting into,
                    right? ({la'e di'u} should be a one syllable word, that's what
                    makes it harder to understand...)

                    >The fourth doesn't parse
                    >unless you switch "ze'e" and "ca'o".

                    {ze'e ca'o} is fine, or maybe even better {ze'e ru'i}.
                    So, the improved version:

                    dei CA se SANga ZE'e BA
                    i RANji LO'e VITno IA
                    i LO la'E di'U nalDJUno CO'a SANga RU
                    gi'E ba ZE'e RU'i SANga KI'u LE du'U

                    mu'o mi'e xorxes





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