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RE: [locost] Question on Brazing

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  • EskoA
    Pat, Why would you not braze the frame together? All the Lotus 7 frames were brazed and the non-metric Caterham frames are still brazed, so what gives? Esko
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 22, 2011
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      Pat,

      Why would you not braze the frame together? All the Lotus 7 frames were
      brazed and the non-metric Caterham frames are still brazed, so what gives?

      Esko



      From: locost@yahoogroups.com [mailto:locost@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Pat Patterson
      Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:41 AM
      To: locost@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [locost] Question on Brazing





      Where are you from? English is obviously not your language. I'm
      hoping something is being lost in translation because I wouldn't
      braze any of the joints. I'd be willing to weld them with
      oxyacetylene but not braze.

      Knowing your language and location might help someone close to you
      translate and or help with welding.

      At 07:03 PM 8/20/2011, you wrote:
      >
      >
      >Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during
      >some years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting
      >all the inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and
      >Autocad for neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to
      >have your advice in the joining technique. The thing is; I have an
      >oxyacetilene torch, and no MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it
      >worth the effort to get the tubes into a shop to Tack weld them with
      >MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at home???? mainly, i'm
      >concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it from the
      >start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete
      >practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought
      >of the MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
      >
      >Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as
      >slow as my work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home, tacked,
      >it could be brazed little by little.
      >
      >And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three tubes,
      >two of them joint by their extremes, the third standing in it
      >extreme, half of the inch on one tube, half on the other. Should I
      >braze First the two underling tubes, THEN the standing one?. Should
      >I Tack the three together, then braze the whole "Tee" Thing???
      >
      >Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack saw
      >and lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be very
      >good for me (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
      >
      >Kind regards and happy car-making!
      >
      >D.R.

      Pat Patterson
      Abbotsford, BC, Canada

      2001 PT Cruiser
      83 450 Honda Nighthawk
      78 F350 460/C6 on propane
      71 Bronco 302/C4/D20 D44/9"

      Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people
      to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of
      the roads weren't paved.

      "If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon."





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • George
      ...    This graining will wick, thru capilary action, the braze filler.( Some fluxes willmake it more pronounced than others), allong the grain setting up
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 22, 2011
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        ---Escoa, the tubing, unless known with its SAE #, and even then being correct, is layered, Austinite, Pearlite, etc, depending on the anealing, hardining proesses employed.
           This graining will wick, thru capilary action, the braze filler.( Some fluxes willmake it more pronounced than others), allong the grain setting up failure in time thru the different expansion, contraction cycles.
            That said, have Brazed joints I made 35 years ago still looking good.
             Also have souldered joints still working.
             If we are talking about BNiCr then the 1850-2050 needed,kinda says, gas weld it.
             Yes, the lower heat spread of Mig or Tig are prefered.
          Hope this helps.                                                                                    George 1129

        From: EskoA <eskoa@...>
        To: locost@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:24:14 PM
        Subject: RE: [locost] Question on Brazing


         
        Pat,

        Why would you not braze the frame together? All the Lotus 7 frames were
        brazed and the non-metric Caterham frames are still brazed, so what gives?

        Esko

        From: locost@yahoogroups.com [mailto:locost@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Pat Patterson
        Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:41 AM
        To: locost@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [locost] Question on Brazing

        Where are you from? English is obviously not your language. I'm
        hoping something is being lost in translation because I wouldn't
        braze any of the joints. I'd be willing to weld them with
        oxyacetylene but not braze.

        Knowing your language and location might help someone close to you
        translate and or help with welding.

        At 07:03 PM 8/20/2011, you wrote:
        >
        >
        >Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during
        >some years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting
        >all the inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and
        >Autocad for neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to
        >have your advice in the joining technique. The thing is; I have an
        >oxyacetilene torch, and no MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it
        >worth the effort to get the tubes into a shop to Tack weld them with
        >MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at home???? mainly, i'm
        >concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it from the
        >start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete
        >practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought
        >of the MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
        >
        >Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as
        >slow as my work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home, tacked,
        >it could be brazed little by little.
        >
        >And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three tubes,
        >two of them joint by their extremes, the third standing in it
        >extreme, half of the inch on one tube, half on the other. Should I
        >braze First the two underling tubes, THEN the standing one?. Should
        >I Tack the three together, then braze the whole "Tee" Thing???
        >
        >Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack saw
        >and lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be very
        >good for me (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
        >
        >Kind regards and happy car-making!
        >
        >D.R.

        Pat Patterson
        Abbotsford, BC, Canada

        2001 PT Cruiser
        83 450 Honda Nighthawk
        78 F350 460/C6 on propane
        71 Bronco 302/C4/D20 D44/9"

        Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people
        to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of
        the roads weren't paved.

        "If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon."

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mark
        First, Never use brazing for structural members. It is not strong enough. Braze sheet metal panels but not frames. I have own several welders, and you get what
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 22, 2011
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          First, Never use brazing for structural members. It is not strong enough. Braze sheet metal panels but not frames. I have own several welders, and you get what you pay for. If 220 is out of the question and you are using 120 wall, you should be able to find a 120 volt welder capable of welding 120 wall.

          When using square or rectangle tube, I have found the best way to 2 pieces with out a jig is to use internal gussets. The gusset acts as your jig. Use a rosset weld to hold the gusset in place. There will be minimal warping due to heat expansion, and you can weld with more that 100% penetration. You will not find a stronger weld anywhere. And you can grind it flush and still have a +100% penetration weld.

          Your betting your life on this frame, spend the money and get a gas shielded MIG.

          --- In locost@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" <drichardson_ve@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during some years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting all the inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and Autocad for neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to have your advice in the joining technique. The thing is; I have an oxyacetilene torch, and no MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it worth the effort to get the tubes into a shop to Tack weld them with MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at home???? mainly, i'm concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it from the start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought of the MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
          >
          > Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as slow as my work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home, tacked, it could be brazed little by little.
          >
          > And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three tubes, two of them joint by their extremes, the third standing in it extreme, half of the inch on one tube, half on the other. Should I braze First the two underling tubes, THEN the standing one?. Should I Tack the three together, then braze the whole "Tee" Thing???
          >
          > Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack saw and lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be very good for me (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
          >
          > Kind regards and happy car-making!
          >
          > D.R.
          >
        • ed
          George: Things have progressed since the days Gary, a local racer, built a Formula Vee using an oxy-acetelene torch and coathangers for rod. Pardon the pun,
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 22, 2011
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            George:

            Things have progressed since the days Gary, a local racer, built a Formula
            Vee using an oxy-acetelene torch and coathangers for rod. Pardon the pun,
            but it hung together for many years of racing.

            Good to see your still around, George.

            I still have just a garage full of parts. The local authority told me they
            would never licence my Locost, so I quit working on it. I have been
            thinking about moving it home and starting work on it again. Heck, I have
            even thought of moving to Alberta where they are a little more open minded.

            Ed Bratt
            Regina, Saskatchewan.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "George" <geo1129@...>
            To: <locost@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 6:16 PM
            Subject: Re: [locost] Question on Brazing


            > ---Escoa, the tubing, unless known with its SAE #, and even then being
            > correct, is layered, Austinite, Pearlite, etc, depending on the anealing,
            > hardining proesses employed.
            > This graining will wick, thru capilary action, the braze filler.( Some
            > fluxes willmake it more pronounced than others), allong the grain setting
            > up failure in time thru the different expansion, contraction cycles.
            > That said, have Brazed joints I made 35 years ago still looking good.
            > Also have souldered joints still working.
            > If we are talking about BNiCr then the 1850-2050 needed,kinda says, gas
            > weld it.
            > Yes, the lower heat spread of Mig or Tig are prefered.
            > Hope this helps. George 1129
            >
            > From: EskoA <eskoa@...>
            > To: locost@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:24:14 PM
            > Subject: RE: [locost] Question on Brazing
            >
            >
            >
            > Pat,
            >
            > Why would you not braze the frame together? All the Lotus 7 frames were
            > brazed and the non-metric Caterham frames are still brazed, so what gives?
            >
            > Esko
            >
            > From: locost@yahoogroups.com [mailto:locost@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            > Pat Patterson
            > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:41 AM
            > To: locost@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [locost] Question on Brazing
            >
            > Where are you from? English is obviously not your language. I'm
            > hoping something is being lost in translation because I wouldn't
            > braze any of the joints. I'd be willing to weld them with
            > oxyacetylene but not braze.
            >
            > Knowing your language and location might help someone close to you
            > translate and or help with welding.
            >
            > At 07:03 PM 8/20/2011, you wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >>Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during
            >>some years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting
            >>all the inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and
            >>Autocad for neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to
            >>have your advice in the joining technique. The thing is; I have an
            >>oxyacetilene torch, and no MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it
            >>worth the effort to get the tubes into a shop to Tack weld them with
            >>MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at home???? mainly, i'm
            >>concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it from the
            >>start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete
            >>practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought
            >>of the MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
            >>
            >>Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as
            >>slow as my work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home, tacked,
            >>it could be brazed little by little.
            >>
            >>And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three tubes,
            >>two of them joint by their extremes, the third standing in it
            >>extreme, half of the inch on one tube, half on the other. Should I
            >>braze First the two underling tubes, THEN the standing one?. Should
            >>I Tack the three together, then braze the whole "Tee" Thing???
            >>
            >>Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack saw
            >>and lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be very
            >>good for me (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
            >>
            >>Kind regards and happy car-making!
            >>
            >>D.R.
            >
            > Pat Patterson
            > Abbotsford, BC, Canada
            >
            > 2001 PT Cruiser
            > 83 450 Honda Nighthawk
            > 78 F350 460/C6 on propane
            > 71 Bronco 302/C4/D20 D44/9"
            >
            > Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people
            > to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of
            > the roads weren't paved.
            >
            > "If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon."
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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            06:35:00
          • Pat Patterson
            Gut feeling. I m a ticketed structural welder. I ve at least tried every process out there. I ve watched lots and lots of newb s weld with all the processes.
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 22, 2011
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              Gut feeling. I'm a ticketed structural welder.
              I've at least tried every process out there. I've
              watched lots and lots of newb's weld with all the processes.

              If you taught yourself on your locost and it
              worked well, and from other pics and comments
              your's has, I have huge respect and props to your
              skill Sir. Brazing requires 3 different and
              difficult things done to make it work. 1) your
              fit up must be near perfect, 2) brazing requires
              VERY careful heat control, 3) It can be a
              difficult process to inspect well. Like micro
              wire mig it's easy to have a bad joint look good.
              Braze (brass and ???) has good adhesion but it's
              other properties suck. So it makes a good glue
              for very tight joints but if you have a gap where
              your depending on the strength of the braze it's going to crack and fail.

              Race cars, especially Mr. Chapman's Can't be
              compared to a street vehicle. The original lotus
              race cars were considered disposable. Any part
              that made it farther than the victory lap was too
              strong. After a race the cars are torn down and
              every joint is re-inspected. This is still true
              today in the upper racing classes. F1, NASCAR,
              CART INDY etc. Hell even our pro buggy gets all
              it's suspension and cage joints checked after a
              race weekend. I keep looking till I find the
              crack... there is always at least one.

              I'm surprised that the current Caterham are still
              brazed and would be very interested to find out
              why. It just seems such a poor choice with what
              else is available (to a first world car
              manufacturer anyway). With a jig and a pile of
              pre-cut tubes (how I would set up a shop to build
              multiple frames). Using Mig I could have a frame
              fully assembled and tacked by lunch and full weld
              out by the end of the second day. And I'm slow.

              Given the tools and exp he has available to him
              I'd oxy fuel weld but not braze. A bad oxy fuel
              weld looks like a bad weld, a badly brazed joint
              can look nice. Professional pipe welders that do
              it all day everyday still screw up every 100th
              weld or so, it's important to be able to tell which weld that was.
              As for coat hanger vs good wire... I've spent
              some time recently around go-cart tracks. All
              commercial go-carts are mig/tig today but the old
              timers tell me that when they used to use oxy
              fuel a coat hanger would crack less than a real
              welding rod. My only personal exp with paid for
              oxy fuel welding ( lots in class little after) is
              making gas tanks for small engines. Brigs and
              Stratton etc. The co. I worked for made small 3-5
              hp gas powered water pumps. We cut the factory
              gas tank in half and welded in an extension. I
              found there too that old coat hanger wire with
              the glue/varnish burned off lasted longer with
              the high vibration than the real rods. The
              hypothesis is the junk in the wire makes it more maliable.

              Please no one take offence if that's how you did
              it. In truth I'd like to know why you chose that
              instead of oxy welding considering the same tools are used for each.


              At 04:24 PM 8/22/2011, you wrote:
              >
              >
              >Pat,
              >
              >Why would you not braze the frame together? All the Lotus 7 frames were
              >brazed and the non-metric Caterham frames are still brazed, so what gives?
              >
              >Esko
              >
              >From:
              ><mailto:locost%40yahoogroups.com>locost@yahoogroups.com
              >[mailto:locost@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              >Pat Patterson
              >Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:41 AM
              >To: <mailto:locost%40yahoogroups.com>locost@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [locost] Question on Brazing
              >
              >Where are you from? English is obviously not your language. I'm
              >hoping something is being lost in translation because I wouldn't
              >braze any of the joints. I'd be willing to weld them with
              >oxyacetylene but not braze.
              >
              >Knowing your language and location might help someone close to you
              >translate and or help with welding.
              >
              >At 07:03 PM 8/20/2011, you wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during
              > >some years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting
              > >all the inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and
              > >Autocad for neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to
              > >have your advice in the joining technique. The thing is; I have an
              > >oxyacetilene torch, and no MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it
              > >worth the effort to get the tubes into a shop to Tack weld them with
              > >MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at home???? mainly, i'm
              > >concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it from the
              > >start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete
              > >practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought
              > >of the MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
              > >
              > >Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as
              > >slow as my work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home, tacked,
              > >it could be brazed little by little.
              > >
              > >And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three tubes,
              > >two of them joint by their extremes, the third standing in it
              > >extreme, half of the inch on one tube, half on the other. Should I
              > >braze First the two underling tubes, THEN the standing one?. Should
              > >I Tack the three together, then braze the whole "Tee" Thing???
              > >
              > >Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack saw
              > >and lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be very
              > >good for me (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
              > >
              > >Kind regards and happy car-making!
              > >
              > >D.R.
              >
              >Pat Patterson
              >Abbotsford, BC, Canada
              >
              >2001 PT Cruiser
              >83 450 Honda Nighthawk
              >78 F350 460/C6 on propane
              >71 Bronco 302/C4/D20 D44/9"
              >
              >Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people
              >to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of
              >the roads weren't paved.
              >
              >"If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon."
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >

              Pat Patterson
              Abbotsford, BC, Canada


              2001 PT Cruiser
              83 450 Honda Nighthawk
              78 F350 460/C6 on propane
              71 Bronco 302/C4/D20 D44/9"


              Some people try to turn back their
              odometers. Not me, I want people to know "why" I
              look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.

              "If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon."














              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Pat Patterson
              ... You re in Canada why the hell won t they licence it? Bah just head west till you get to the mountains, I ll open the gates and let you into gods country
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 22, 2011
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                At 07:38 PM 8/22/2011, you wrote:
                >
                >
                >George:
                >
                >Things have progressed since the days Gary, a local racer, built a Formula
                >Vee using an oxy-acetelene torch and coathangers for rod. Pardon the pun,
                >but it hung together for many years of racing.
                >
                >Good to see your still around, George.
                >
                >I still have just a garage full of parts. The local authority told me they
                >would never licence my Locost, so I quit working on it. I have been
                >thinking about moving it home and starting work on it again. Heck, I have
                >even thought of moving to Alberta where they are a little more open minded.
                >
                >Ed Bratt
                >Regina, Saskatchewan.


                You're in Canada why the hell won't they licence it? Bah just head
                west till you get to the mountains, I'll open the gates and let you
                into gods country myself ;o) But seriously Build it, take it left or
                right, register, insure, bring it home. treat as any other licensed
                vehicle moved into the province.


                Pat Patterson
                Abbotsford, BC, Canada


                2001 PT Cruiser
                83 450 Honda Nighthawk
                78 F350 460/C6 on propane
                71 Bronco 302/C4/D20 D44/9"


                Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people
                to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of
                the roads weren't paved.

                "If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon."
              • ed
                Pat: The authorities at Sask Government Insurance like to grab every bit of power they can. Some rumours suggest they are compensating for tiny weenies;
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 22, 2011
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                  Pat:

                  The authorities at Sask Government Insurance like to grab every bit of power
                  they can. Some rumours suggest they are compensating for tiny weenies;
                  Others say it is because they grew up as cronic bed wetters. They are
                  compensating for something, but I really do not know what. But it makes
                  them feel big and important to say "NO" real loud.

                  I have just about a complete unassembled Locost, and it is time I did get
                  back to it.

                  There is even a choice of engines in my garage. I have a 4AGE, and also a
                  3AC single cam toyota engine, and a BMC 1275 MG Midget engine and
                  transmission.

                  I have lost count of the years it has been sitting. My son moved to
                  Victoria to get educated, and it would be a wonderful experience to drive it
                  through the mountains. I have driven a Mini through the mountains, slow
                  going up, but an absolute thrill coming down.

                  Got to finish it.

                  Ed Bratt
                  Regina, Sask


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Pat Patterson" <pat@...>
                  To: <locost@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 8:52 PM
                  Subject: Re: [locost] Question on Brazing


                  > At 07:38 PM 8/22/2011, you wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>George:
                  >>
                  >>Things have progressed since the days Gary, a local racer, built a Formula
                  >>Vee using an oxy-acetelene torch and coathangers for rod. Pardon the pun,
                  >>but it hung together for many years of racing.
                  >>
                  >>Good to see your still around, George.
                  >>
                  >>I still have just a garage full of parts. The local authority told me they
                  >>would never licence my Locost, so I quit working on it. I have been
                  >>thinking about moving it home and starting work on it again. Heck, I have
                  >>even thought of moving to Alberta where they are a little more open
                  >>minded.
                  >>
                  >>Ed Bratt
                  >>Regina, Saskatchewan.
                  >
                  >
                  > You're in Canada why the hell won't they licence it? Bah just head
                  > west till you get to the mountains, I'll open the gates and let you
                  > into gods country myself ;o) But seriously Build it, take it left or
                  > right, register, insure, bring it home. treat as any other licensed
                  > vehicle moved into the province.
                  >
                  >
                  > Pat Patterson
                  > Abbotsford, BC, Canada
                  >
                  >
                  > 2001 PT Cruiser
                  > 83 450 Honda Nighthawk
                  > 78 F350 460/C6 on propane
                  > 71 Bronco 302/C4/D20 D44/9"
                  >
                  >
                  > Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people
                  > to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of
                  > the roads weren't paved.
                  >
                  > "If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                • David Dahl
                  I wish you people would learn the difference between brazing and bronze welding. This has been talked about on many forums and is easily searched. David
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 22, 2011
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                    I wish you people would learn the difference between brazing and bronze
                    welding. This has been talked about on many forums and is easily
                    searched. David (bronze weldor)
                  • George
                    ...   Not really progressed for what we do, Learned brazing back when we had to use powder for flux and graduated to the dip in flux, braze, dip, braze as
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 22, 2011
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                      ---Yup, dem revnuers taint gots me yet.
                        Not really progressed for what we do, Learned brazing back when we had to use powder for flux and graduated to the dip in flux, braze, dip, braze as well as scratching the work and keep a puddle going.
                        Have Millers as well as a Hobart SP250 now-a-days, but sometimes miss the older-slower ways.
                        Ed, as a Canadian,  Build it, there is allways a way to legalize it later. You have to remember, there is a law agaist everything, But, its all at the discression of the investagator.
                         Sorry to hear an admitance of  THEY won after your travelling such distance in your quest for the right stuff as well as your helping of others in their quests as well as you could.
                          Good to hear your getting back at it.
                         Assembling parts myself for the next build. Sold my 1 st build to a man in Barrie. He seen it in front of my place, left his family at Timmy's, came back with a fist-full of cash, I could'nt say no.
                          Second build still going strong and owner will not sell.
                           Third, was at wrecker on Sat. and found another rad as Chevette was too small and leaking too much to patch. Should be back on road soon.
                           All 3 had various legal issues for road use.
                         Mine, kept insisting it was a dune-buggy for off-road use ammong other issues.
                         Will not go into insurance probs. But, its doable with perserverance.
                       Hope this helps.                                                                                               Geo1129

                      From: ed <bratt@...>
                      To: locost@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 10:38:13 PM
                      Subject: Re: [locost] Question on Brazing


                       
                      George:

                      Things have progressed since the days Gary, a local racer, built a Formula
                      Vee using an oxy-acetelene torch and coathangers for rod. Pardon the pun,
                      but it hung together for many years of racing.

                      Good to see your still around, George.

                      I still have just a garage full of parts. The local authority told me they
                      would never licence my Locost, so I quit working on it. I have been
                      thinking about moving it home and starting work on it again. Heck, I have
                      even thought of moving to Alberta where they are a little more open minded.

                      Ed Bratt
                      Regina, Saskatchewan.

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "George" <geo1129@...>
                      To: <locost@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 6:16 PM
                      Subject: Re: [locost] Question on Brazing

                      > ---Escoa, the tubing, unless known with its SAE #, and even then being
                      > correct, is layered, Austinite, Pearlite, etc, depending on the anealing,
                      > hardining proesses employed.
                      > This graining will wick, thru capilary action, the braze filler.( Some
                      > fluxes willmake it more pronounced than others), allong the grain setting
                      > up failure in time thru the different expansion, contraction cycles.
                      > That said, have Brazed joints I made 35 years ago still looking good.
                      > Also have souldered joints still working.
                      > If we are talking about BNiCr then the 1850-2050 needed,kinda says, gas
                      > weld it.
                      > Yes, the lower heat spread of Mig or Tig are prefered.
                      > Hope this helps. George 1129
                      >
                      > From: EskoA <eskoa@...>
                      > To: locost@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:24:14 PM
                      > Subject: RE: [locost] Question on Brazing
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Pat,
                      >
                      > Why would you not braze the frame together? All the Lotus 7 frames were
                      > brazed and the non-metric Caterham frames are still brazed, so what gives?
                      >
                      > Esko
                      >
                      > From: locost@yahoogroups.com [mailto:locost@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      > Pat Patterson
                      > Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:41 AM
                      > To: locost@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [locost] Question on Brazing
                      >
                      > Where are you from? English is obviously not your language. I'm
                      > hoping something is being lost in translation because I wouldn't
                      > braze any of the joints. I'd be willing to weld them with
                      > oxyacetylene but not braze.
                      >
                      > Knowing your language and location might help someone close to you
                      > translate and or help with welding.
                      >
                      > At 07:03 PM 8/20/2011, you wrote:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during
                      >>some years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting
                      >>all the inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and
                      >>Autocad for neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to
                      >>have your advice in the joining technique. The thing is; I have an
                      >>oxyacetilene torch, and no MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it
                      >>worth the effort to get the tubes into a shop to Tack weld them with
                      >>MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at home???? mainly, i'm
                      >>concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it from the
                      >>start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete
                      >>practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought
                      >>of the MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
                      >>
                      >>Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as
                      >>slow as my work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home, tacked,
                      >>it could be brazed little by little.
                      >>
                      >>And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three tubes,
                      >>two of them joint by their extremes, the third standing in it
                      >>extreme, half of the inch on one tube, half on the other. Should I
                      >>braze First the two underling tubes, THEN the standing one?. Should
                      >>I Tack the three together, then braze the whole "Tee" Thing???
                      >>
                      >>Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack saw
                      >>and lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be very
                      >>good for me (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
                      >>
                      >>Kind regards and happy car-making!
                      >>
                      >>D.R.
                      >
                      > Pat Patterson
                      > Abbotsford, BC, Canada
                      >
                      > 2001 PT Cruiser
                      > 83 450 Honda Nighthawk
                      > 78 F350 460/C6 on propane
                      > 71 Bronco 302/C4/D20 D44/9"
                      >
                      > Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people
                      > to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of
                      > the roads weren't paved.
                      >
                      > "If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon."
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      ----------------------------------------------------------

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                      06:35:00




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Patrick & Ann-Marie
                      I MIGed my locost frame, because it was designed to be MIGed, I brazed my Lotus 23 frame because it was designed to be brazed. If I were to build a true seven
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 23, 2011
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                        I MIGed my locost frame, because it was designed to be MIGed, I brazed my Lotus 23 frame because it was designed to be brazed. If I were to build a true seven replica, I would braze it with the good stuff, Nickel bronze.
                        The joint designs are quite different, Brazing requires more surface area, plenty of round tube to create good fillets, no butt joints and often tubes bent rather than 2 pieces used . The locost is mainly square to square tube joints and plenty of butt joints, so no good for brazing.
                        Brazing aparently dosn't change the structure of the steel to the degree fusion welding does, therefore retains strength and dosn't put in as much heat so reduces heat distortion on thin guage steel structures. This is contrary to anyone selling MIG welders and trained on them, but after MIGing a locost frame, and Brazing a lotus 23 frame, I tend to believe it. There was minimal distortion and heat build up on my 23 chassis. It was also pleasurable and relaxing to weld.
                        MIG is faster thou and TIG is better than both of the others.

                        Patrick




                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: EskoA
                        To: locost@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:24 AM
                        Subject: RE: [locost] Question on Brazing



                        Pat,

                        Why would you not braze the frame together? All the Lotus 7 frames were
                        brazed and the non-metric Caterham frames are still brazed, so what gives?

                        Esko

                        From: locost@yahoogroups.com [mailto:locost@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Pat Patterson
                        Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:41 AM
                        To: locost@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [locost] Question on Brazing

                        Where are you from? English is obviously not your language. I'm
                        hoping something is being lost in translation because I wouldn't
                        braze any of the joints. I'd be willing to weld them with
                        oxyacetylene but not braze.

                        Knowing your language and location might help someone close to you
                        translate and or help with welding.

                        At 07:03 PM 8/20/2011, you wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during
                        >some years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting
                        >all the inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and
                        >Autocad for neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to
                        >have your advice in the joining technique. The thing is; I have an
                        >oxyacetilene torch, and no MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it
                        >worth the effort to get the tubes into a shop to Tack weld them with
                        >MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at home???? mainly, i'm
                        >concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it from the
                        >start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete
                        >practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought
                        >of the MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
                        >
                        >Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as
                        >slow as my work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home, tacked,
                        >it could be brazed little by little.
                        >
                        >And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three tubes,
                        >two of them joint by their extremes, the third standing in it
                        >extreme, half of the inch on one tube, half on the other. Should I
                        >braze First the two underling tubes, THEN the standing one?. Should
                        >I Tack the three together, then braze the whole "Tee" Thing???
                        >
                        >Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack saw
                        >and lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be very
                        >good for me (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
                        >
                        >Kind regards and happy car-making!
                        >
                        >D.R.

                        Pat Patterson
                        Abbotsford, BC, Canada

                        2001 PT Cruiser
                        83 450 Honda Nighthawk
                        78 F350 460/C6 on propane
                        71 Bronco 302/C4/D20 D44/9"

                        Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people
                        to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of
                        the roads weren't paved.

                        "If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon."

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Daniel
                        Hello Pat, Thank you for your answer. My language is spanish, I m a musician from Venezuela, and some years ago, while studying abroad, I saw a Seven (I m not
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 23, 2011
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                          Hello Pat, Thank you for your answer. My language is spanish, I'm a musician from Venezuela, and some years ago, while studying abroad, I saw a Seven (I'm not sure wether a locost or lotus), back in that time I was thrilled by the morgan 3 wheeler, and I hoped to make a Jzr style replica when I was home again. Then, that very day I got in love with that nameless little car.

                          After finishing my studies and returning home with my wife pregnant, we bought a Renault Fuego wich is our daily transport. But the seven has been a very wanted project for me, and finally, I started cutting the tubes with a cad design wich follows the outer lines from the pat prince plan, with a little more triangulation for strenghtening the chassis. In fact, my brother is also doing one for him, so, the work and tools costs are shared.

                          We plan to use a Fiat Twin Cam 1600 engine, With Honda CBR Carbs, Ford Sierra Gearbox and transmission, Front Chevette Uprights, Rear Chris Gibbs fabricated uprights. By reading the answers to this post, and after a call to the local welding supplies store, (No nickel bronze rods), Perhaps I will use oxy fusion welding, Perhaps MIG (paying a shop for it), It will depend on practicality, here in my city.

                          The bronze nickel idea came from the knowledge that Arch Motors used that for making the caterham chassis, now is a different story with Robotic MIG at Cage, but I see that is a little bit difficult to get the proper materials to make it that way. (I understand the technique isn't capillary brazing, so the gaps don't need to be so precise as the filet or bronce ally is the tensile support) But, to be honest, it seems more realistic to use steel rods, wich are far more common, and fusion welding. I think a little tip for the torch will help.


                          kind regards from the Venezuelan Andes :)

                          Daniel Richardson

                          --- In locost@yahoogroups.com, Pat Patterson <pat@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Where are you from? English is obviously not your language. I'm
                          > hoping something is being lost in translation because I wouldn't
                          > braze any of the joints. I'd be willing to weld them with
                          > oxyacetylene but not braze.
                          >
                          > Knowing your language and location might help someone close to you
                          > translate and or help with welding.
                          >
                          > At 07:03 PM 8/20/2011, you wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during
                          > >some years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting
                          > >all the inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and
                          > >Autocad for neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to
                          > >have your advice in the joining technique. The thing is; I have an
                          > >oxyacetilene torch, and no MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it
                          > >worth the effort to get the tubes into a shop to Tack weld them with
                          > >MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at home???? mainly, i'm
                          > >concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it from the
                          > >start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete
                          > >practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought
                          > >of the MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
                          > >
                          > >Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as
                          > >slow as my work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home, tacked,
                          > >it could be brazed little by little.
                          > >
                          > >And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three tubes,
                          > >two of them joint by their extremes, the third standing in it
                          > >extreme, half of the inch on one tube, half on the other. Should I
                          > >braze First the two underling tubes, THEN the standing one?. Should
                          > >I Tack the three together, then braze the whole "Tee" Thing???
                          > >
                          > >Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack saw
                          > >and lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be very
                          > >good for me (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
                          > >
                          > >Kind regards and happy car-making!
                          > >
                          > >D.R.
                          >
                          > Pat Patterson
                          > Abbotsford, BC, Canada
                          >
                          >
                          > 2001 PT Cruiser
                          > 83 450 Honda Nighthawk
                          > 78 F350 460/C6 on propane
                          > 71 Bronco 302/C4/D20 D44/9"
                          >
                          >
                          > Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people
                          > to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of
                          > the roads weren't paved.
                          >
                          > "If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon."
                          >
                        • Dougie Wells
                          Dave don t knock it this is the first proper question on this forum in months. I remember back in the day there were dozens every day with people all over the
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 23, 2011
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                            Dave don't knock it this is the first proper question on this forum in months. I remember back in the day there were dozens every day with people all over the world helping each other build their car.

                            Dougie

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On 23 Aug 2011, at 21:28, "David Dahl" <dfdahl@...> wrote:

                            > I wish you people would learn the difference between brazing and bronze
                            > welding. This has been talked about on many forums and is easily
                            > searched. David (bronze weldor)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Click here to report this email as spam.
                            >


                            This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontrol.com


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Daniel
                            Rick, thank you very much for this information, I agree that using gas is much more precise and versatile than MIG, certainly the budget IS an important
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 23, 2011
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                              Rick, thank you very much for this information, I agree that using gas is much more precise and versatile than MIG, certainly the budget IS an important concern, because my country do not make MIG or TIG equipment, so we have to import it, and even the Chinese ones sometimes are unproportionally expensive. We already bought The Oxy torch, regulators and nozzles (cutting attachment included), for no much money, so, in that direction we have already most of what we need. I remember reading a document from DSK wich speaks very good the virtues of welding with gas a seven chassis, so, why not?

                              Of course, before that, practice, practice practice...

                              One thing I would like to know is, how would you tack two tubes with that? can I do it on the MDF table??? or it will burn by the moment I finish tacking the first corner of the tubes? I think of the inferior rails, to make them straight against the table, 4 tacks and after checking all, weld it on the air.

                              kind regards

                              Daniel




                              --- In locost@yahoogroups.com, Richard Girard <jindoguy@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Daniel, If you have oxy acetylene you don't need anything else. You will
                              > need 00, 0, 1, and 2 size torches to cover all the thicknesses of tubing and
                              > tabs. Add a cutting torch for fast fabrication of suspension tabs and you
                              > have everything you need. It may take a little longer, but you can fit,
                              > tack, check alignment, and finish weld and you'll be fine. Add a rosebud
                              > torch, you also have the advantage of being able to do bending, which
                              > neither MIG nor TIG will give you.
                              > Brazing requires very precise fits, welding is much more lenient. Just use
                              > good quality welding rod, ER70S6 is very common. no scrap wire or hangers
                              > :-}, that will cause cracks down the road.
                              > There are many videos out there showing oxy acetylene welding of aircraft
                              > fuselages, engine mounts, and control surfaces, get one of those and
                              > practice, practice, practice. Make sample welds on some tube drops, cut
                              > through them at a right angle and take those to a welder when you think you
                              > are skilled enough and ready to start you chassis. He will be able to give
                              > you an honest appraisal or your skill.
                              > Almost every aircraft built during World War II had steel parts that
                              > were oxy acetylene welded. From the Spitfire to the Super Fortress, they had
                              > major structural weldments that were oxy acetylene welded. You will find you
                              > have more control of weld size and a much easier time getting into tight
                              > corners than with a MIG.
                              > Good luck.
                              >
                              > Rick Girard
                              >
                              >
                              > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Daniel <drichardson_ve@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > **
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during some
                              > > years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting all the
                              > > inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and Autocad for
                              > > neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to have your advice in
                              > > the joining technique. The thing is; I have an oxyacetilene torch, and no
                              > > MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it worth the effort to get the tubes into
                              > > a shop to Tack weld them with MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at
                              > > home???? mainly, i'm concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it
                              > > from the start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete
                              > > practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought of the
                              > > MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
                              > >
                              > > Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as slow as my
                              > > work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home, tacked, it could be brazed
                              > > little by little.
                              > >
                              > > And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three tubes, two of
                              > > them joint by their extremes, the third standing in it extreme, half of the
                              > > inch on one tube, half on the other. Should I braze First the two underling
                              > > tubes, THEN the standing one?. Should I Tack the three together, then braze
                              > > the whole "Tee" Thing???
                              > >
                              > > Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack saw and
                              > > lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be very good for me
                              > > (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
                              > >
                              > > Kind regards and happy car-making!
                              > >
                              > > D.R.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Daniel
                              Mark, thanks for the gusset idea, certainly it should do the job and get a sound joint! to think about... Daniel
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 23, 2011
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                                Mark, thanks for the gusset idea, certainly it should do the job and get a sound joint! to think about...

                                Daniel

                                --- In locost@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mxwmxw@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > First, Never use brazing for structural members. It is not strong enough. Braze sheet metal panels but not frames. I have own several welders, and you get what you pay for. If 220 is out of the question and you are using 120 wall, you should be able to find a 120 volt welder capable of welding 120 wall.
                                >
                                > When using square or rectangle tube, I have found the best way to 2 pieces with out a jig is to use internal gussets. The gusset acts as your jig. Use a rosset weld to hold the gusset in place. There will be minimal warping due to heat expansion, and you can weld with more that 100% penetration. You will not find a stronger weld anywhere. And you can grind it flush and still have a +100% penetration weld.
                                >
                                > Your betting your life on this frame, spend the money and get a gas shielded MIG.
                                >
                                > --- In locost@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" <drichardson_ve@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during some years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting all the inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and Autocad for neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to have your advice in the joining technique. The thing is; I have an oxyacetilene torch, and no MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it worth the effort to get the tubes into a shop to Tack weld them with MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at home???? mainly, i'm concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it from the start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought of the MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
                                > >
                                > > Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as slow as my work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home, tacked, it could be brazed little by little.
                                > >
                                > > And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three tubes, two of them joint by their extremes, the third standing in it extreme, half of the inch on one tube, half on the other. Should I braze First the two underling tubes, THEN the standing one?. Should I Tack the three together, then braze the whole "Tee" Thing???
                                > >
                                > > Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack saw and lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be very good for me (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
                                > >
                                > > Kind regards and happy car-making!
                                > >
                                > > D.R.
                                > >
                                >
                              • Wragie
                                Hi Daniel The nickel bronze braze rods create a joint that is actually stronger than the steel. As far as I have read there has few if any braze joint failure
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 23, 2011
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                                  Hi Daniel

                                  The nickel bronze braze rods create a joint that is actually stronger
                                  than the steel. As far as I have read there has few if any braze
                                  joint failure on the 7's that were brazed including racing ones. You
                                  see reports of the tubes rusting out etc but not the joints. And that
                                  is after 20-30 years on the road or on the track. The problems with
                                  brazing are making sure you have a good fit on the tube joint, clean
                                  surfaces, and if your local authorities will let it be used. The
                                  reason it has fallen out of favour is not that it is weaker but that
                                  it takes longer to complete a joint and the fit is a bit more picky.
                                  MIG is just faster so for a shop where time is money they went with
                                  faster systems. Nickel bronze is still used quite a lot in aerospace
                                  products that require high reliability and strength. If you are not
                                  comfortable gas welding then it still is a excellent alternative.

                                  You could tack with your oxy setup. Or you can just use a bunch of C
                                  clamps or welding magnets. Tack welds are not that strong so tacking
                                  it one place and transporting it runs the risk of popping some of
                                  those tacks loose. On your jig the trick to not burning the wood
                                  under the joints is simple not to have anything under them. Basically
                                  you cut holes under where the joint is.
                                  Hold the tubes down either using clamps if you have a bunch of what
                                  most people do is blocks of wood along side the tubes screwed to the
                                  jig. If you follow the book and do the bottom rail then the top. Then
                                  you can use the upright tubes and C clamps to self jig that point of
                                  the assembly. Once you have tubes in at least the four corners you
                                  can just place and braze in the rest with out any thing but a clamp.
                                  That is probably harder to explain here than it is to do ;-]

                                  With the Oxy rig you can just weld it with the torch. The nice thing
                                  about this is once you have your hand and eye working your welds will
                                  be strong and should look very close to a tig welded seam in
                                  appearance. Either of those ways would get you a very serviceable
                                  frame. They require a bit more skill than a mig but a few hours of
                                  practice or better a few lessons or supervision from an experienced
                                  welder and you should be ok.

                                  Dave


                                  At 07:32 PM 22/08/2011, you wrote:
                                  >First, Never use brazing for structural members. It is not strong
                                  >enough. Braze sheet metal panels but not frames. I have own several
                                  >welders, and you get what you pay for. If 220 is out of the question
                                  >and you are using 120 wall, you should be able to find a 120 volt
                                  >welder capable of welding 120 wall.
                                  >
                                  >When using square or rectangle tube, I have found the best way to 2
                                  >pieces with out a jig is to use internal gussets. The gusset acts as
                                  >your jig. Use a rosset weld to hold the gusset in place. There will
                                  >be minimal warping due to heat expansion, and you can weld with more
                                  >that 100% penetration. You will not find a stronger weld anywhere.
                                  >And you can grind it flush and still have a +100% penetration weld.
                                  >
                                  >Your betting your life on this frame, spend the money and get a gas
                                  >shielded MIG.
                                  >
                                  >--- In locost@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" <drichardson_ve@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during
                                  > some years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting
                                  > all the inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and
                                  > Autocad for neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to
                                  > have your advice in the joining technique. The thing is; I have an
                                  > oxyacetilene torch, and no MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it
                                  > worth the effort to get the tubes into a shop to Tack weld them
                                  > with MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at home???? mainly, i'm
                                  > concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it from the
                                  > start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete
                                  > practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought
                                  > of the MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
                                  > >
                                  > > Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as
                                  > slow as my work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home,
                                  > tacked, it could be brazed little by little.
                                  > >
                                  > > And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three
                                  > tubes, two of them joint by their extremes, the third standing in
                                  > it extreme, half of the inch on one tube, half on the other. Should
                                  > I braze First the two underling tubes, THEN the standing one?.
                                  > Should I Tack the three together, then braze the whole "Tee" Thing???
                                  > >
                                  > > Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack
                                  > saw and lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be
                                  > very good for me (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
                                  > >
                                  > > Kind regards and happy car-making!
                                  > >
                                  > > D.R.


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Wragie
                                  Ed I thought there have been a few Locosts on the road in Sask? I wonder if you have the same problem I ve seen in a few places where the local inspector is
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Aug 23, 2011
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                                    Ed

                                    I thought there have been a few Locosts on the road in Sask?
                                    I wonder if you have the same problem I've seen in a few places
                                    where the local inspector is just setting up his own little kingdom
                                    and will interpret the rules as he/they see fit regardless of what
                                    the rules say. Or is it just that bad now?

                                    Dave
                                    NBattford escapee



                                    At 08:48 PM 22/08/2011, you wrote:
                                    >Pat:
                                    >
                                    >The authorities at Sask Government Insurance like to grab every bit of power
                                    >they can. Some rumours suggest they are compensating for tiny weenies;
                                    >Others say it is because they grew up as cronic bed wetters. They are
                                    >compensating for something, but I really do not know what. But it makes
                                    >them feel big and important to say "NO" real loud.
                                    >
                                    >I have just about a complete unassembled Locost, and it is time I did get
                                    >back to it.
                                    >
                                    >There is even a choice of engines in my garage. I have a 4AGE, and also a
                                    >3AC single cam toyota engine, and a BMC 1275 MG Midget engine and
                                    >transmission.
                                    >
                                    >I have lost count of the years it has been sitting. My son moved to
                                    >Victoria to get educated, and it would be a wonderful experience to drive it
                                    >through the mountains. I have driven a Mini through the mountains, slow
                                    >going up, but an absolute thrill coming down.
                                    >
                                    >Got to finish it.
                                    >
                                    >Ed Bratt
                                    >Regina, Sask
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >----- Original Message -----
                                    >From: "Pat Patterson" <pat@...>
                                    >To: <locost@yahoogroups.com>
                                    >Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 8:52 PM
                                    >Subject: Re: [locost] Question on Brazing
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > At 07:38 PM 8/22/2011, you wrote:
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>George:
                                    > >>
                                    > >>Things have progressed since the days Gary, a local racer, built a Formula
                                    > >>Vee using an oxy-acetelene torch and coathangers for rod. Pardon the pun,
                                    > >>but it hung together for many years of racing.
                                    > >>
                                    > >>Good to see your still around, George.
                                    > >>
                                    > >>I still have just a garage full of parts. The local authority told me they
                                    > >>would never licence my Locost, so I quit working on it. I have been
                                    > >>thinking about moving it home and starting work on it again. Heck, I have
                                    > >>even thought of moving to Alberta where they are a little more open
                                    > >>minded.
                                    > >>
                                    > >>Ed Bratt
                                    > >>Regina, Saskatchewan.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > You're in Canada why the hell won't they licence it? Bah just head
                                    > > west till you get to the mountains, I'll open the gates and let you
                                    > > into gods country myself ;o) But seriously Build it, take it left or
                                    > > right, register, insure, bring it home. treat as any other licensed
                                    > > vehicle moved into the province.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Pat Patterson
                                    > > Abbotsford, BC, Canada
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > 2001 PT Cruiser
                                    > > 83 450 Honda Nighthawk
                                    > > 78 F350 460/C6 on propane
                                    > > 71 Bronco 302/C4/D20 D44/9"
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people
                                    > > to know "why" I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of
                                    > > the roads weren't paved.
                                    > >
                                    > > "If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon."
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                    >Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3850 - Release Date: 08/22/11
                                    >06:35:00
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • David Dahl
                                    ... Yea, sorry point taken David [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Aug 23, 2011
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                                      On 8/23/2011 10:39 AM, Dougie Wells wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dave don't knock it this is the first proper question on this forum in
                                      > months. I remember back in the day there were dozens every day with
                                      > people all over the world helping each other build their car.
                                      >
                                      > Dougie
                                      >
                                      > Sent from my iPhone
                                      >
                                      > On 23 Aug 2011, at 21:28, "David Dahl" <dfdahl@...
                                      > <mailto:dfdahl%40telus.net>> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > I wish you people would learn the difference between brazing and bronze
                                      > > welding. This has been talked about on many forums and is easily
                                      > > searched. David (bronze weldor)
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Click here to report this email as spam.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc.
                                      > www.surfcontrol.com
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > No virus found in this message.
                                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
                                      > Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3852 - Release Date: 08/23/11
                                      >
                                      Yea, sorry point taken David


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Mark Williams
                                      In MIG or Brazing, I find the best way to assembly is to tack and assemble as much as possible. The rest of the assembly acts as the jig, keeping warping to a
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Aug 24, 2011
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                                        In MIG or Brazing, I find the best way to assembly is to tack and assemble as much as possible. The rest of the assembly acts as the jig, keeping warping to a minimum. One triangle keeps the next from warping, and so on.


                                        If you can tack the entire thing, or largeassemblies with many piecestogether before finishing any joint the structure will be your jig. when you finish the joints.


                                        If you must Braze, It's all about fit, fit, fit. You can not use brazing material as filler. It will not be strong. Think tight joints like the joint on a picture frame, and filled gaps will be weak.

                                        Clean joints are important to, as with MIG, But make sure the joints are freshly ground the same day you braze. No oil, dirt or rust, even if you can see the rust. hit it with a flap disk.

                                         
                                        Mark


                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Daniel <drichardson_ve@...>
                                        To: locost@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 1:41 PM
                                        Subject: [locost] Re: Question on Brazing


                                         
                                        Rick, thank you very much for this information, I agree that using gas is much more precise and versatile than MIG, certainly the budget IS an important concern, because my country do not make MIG or TIG equipment, so we have to import it, and even the Chinese ones sometimes are unproportionally expensive. We already bought The Oxy torch, regulators and nozzles (cutting attachment included), for no much money, so, in that direction we have already most of what we need. I remember reading a document from DSK wich speaks very good the virtues of welding with gas a seven chassis, so, why not?

                                        Of course, before that, practice, practice practice...

                                        One thing I would like to know is, how would you tack two tubes with that? can I do it on the MDF table??? or it will burn by the moment I finish tacking the first corner of the tubes? I think of the inferior rails, to make them straight against the table, 4 tacks and after checking all, weld it on the air.

                                        kind regards

                                        Daniel

                                        --- In locost@yahoogroups.com, Richard Girard <jindoguy@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Daniel, If you have oxy acetylene you don't need anything else. You will
                                        > need 00, 0, 1, and 2 size torches to cover all the thicknesses of tubing and
                                        > tabs. Add a cutting torch for fast fabrication of suspension tabs and you
                                        > have everything you need. It may take a little longer, but you can fit,
                                        > tack, check alignment, and finish weld and you'll be fine. Add a rosebud
                                        > torch, you also have the advantage of being able to do bending, which
                                        > neither MIG nor TIG will give you.
                                        > Brazing requires very precise fits, welding is much more lenient. Just use
                                        > good quality welding rod, ER70S6 is very common. no scrap wire or hangers
                                        > :-}, that will cause cracks down the road.
                                        > There are many videos out there showing oxy acetylene welding of aircraft
                                        > fuselages, engine mounts, and control surfaces, get one of those and
                                        > practice, practice, practice. Make sample welds on some tube drops, cut
                                        > through them at a right angle and take those to a welder when you think you
                                        > are skilled enough and ready to start you chassis. He will be able to give
                                        > you an honest appraisal or your skill.
                                        > Almost every aircraft built during World War II had steel parts that
                                        > were oxy acetylene welded. From the Spitfire to the Super Fortress, they had
                                        > major structural weldments that were oxy acetylene welded. You will find you
                                        > have more control of weld size and a much easier time getting into tight
                                        > corners than with a MIG.
                                        > Good luck.
                                        >
                                        > Rick Girard
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Daniel <drichardson_ve@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > **
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Locost/Lotus builders! I've been reading this group during some
                                        > > years, and finally, as I've started cutting the tubes, getting all the
                                        > > inferior rails (using pat prince scans as the reference and Autocad for
                                        > > neatness) cut and straight for welding, I would like to have your advice in
                                        > > the joining technique. The thing is; I have an oxyacetilene torch, and no
                                        > > MIG, nor TIG, no 220v either. Does it worth the effort to get the tubes into
                                        > > a shop to Tack weld them with MIG, then braze it with nickel bronze at
                                        > > home???? mainly, i'm concerned with the lack of proper jigs for brazing it
                                        > > from the start, keeping it straight during the brazing (Being a complete
                                        > > practical novice on it, some literature already seen) so, i thought of the
                                        > > MIG for tacking all, four corners by tube prior to brazing.
                                        > >
                                        > > Another concern is the time involved, I am doing this project as slow as my
                                        > > work allows it, so if I have the chassis at home, tacked, it could be brazed
                                        > > little by little.
                                        > >
                                        > > And third!! this would be in the brazing alternative. Three tubes, two of
                                        > > them joint by their extremes, the third standing in it extreme, half of the
                                        > > inch on one tube, half on the other. Should I braze First the two underling
                                        > > tubes, THEN the standing one?. Should I Tack the three together, then braze
                                        > > the whole "Tee" Thing???
                                        > >
                                        > > Anyway, all of this is speculative, because until now, The hack saw and
                                        > > lathe back grinder have been the tools used. It would be very good for me
                                        > > (fundamental) to have your ideas on it
                                        > >
                                        > > Kind regards and happy car-making!
                                        > >
                                        > > D.R.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Daniel
                                        Hello David, Could you please indicate me the size of the gap needed to bronze weld the 1 RHS Tube? Making a chassis like Arch Motors did, at Home, is it
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Sep 7, 2011
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                                          Hello David,

                                          Could you please indicate me the size of the gap needed to bronze weld the 1" RHS Tube? Making a chassis like Arch Motors did, at Home, is it feasible? Or does it have to be so tight as everybody explains? I have already cut some tubes with a hacksaw. No rush, And i'm gathering information everywhere.

                                          Thanks!

                                          Daniel
                                        • Mark Williams
                                          Generally the fit needs to touch all the way around. allowing the bronze to only fill the imperfections in the cut. If the angle is off and you try to fill one
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Sep 8, 2011
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                                            Generally the fit needs to touch all the way around. allowing the bronze to only fill the imperfections in the cut. If the angle is off and you try to fill one end, the joint will be week.

                                            Get an angle grinder with a flap disk so you can fine tune your joints. I use a chop saw that does not cut a perfect angle, then i make it fit with the flap disk.

                                             
                                            Mark


                                            ________________________________
                                            From: Daniel <drichardson_ve@...>
                                            To: locost@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 12:37 AM
                                            Subject: [locost] Re: Question on Brazing


                                             
                                            Hello David,

                                            Could you please indicate me the size of the gap needed to bronze weld the 1" RHS Tube? Making a chassis like Arch Motors did, at Home, is it feasible? Or does it have to be so tight as everybody explains? I have already cut some tubes with a hacksaw. No rush, And i'm gathering information everywhere.

                                            Thanks!

                                            Daniel




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Wayne
                                            Mark is correct, get it as tight as possible. The smaller the gap the stronger the weld. wm
                                            Message 21 of 27 , May 7, 2012
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                                              Mark is correct, get it as tight as possible. The smaller the gap the stronger the weld.

                                              wm

                                              --- In locost@yahoogroups.com, Mark Williams <mxwmxw@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Generally the fit needs to touch all the way around. allowing the bronze to only fill the imperfections in the cut. If the angle is off and you try to fill one end, the joint will be week.
                                              >
                                              > Get an angle grinder with a flap disk so you can fine tune your joints. I use a chop saw that does not cut a perfect angle, then i make it fit with the flap disk.
                                              >
                                              >  
                                              > Mark
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________
                                              > From: Daniel <drichardson_ve@...>
                                              > To: locost@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 12:37 AM
                                              > Subject: [locost] Re: Question on Brazing
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >  
                                              > Hello David,
                                              >
                                              > Could you please indicate me the size of the gap needed to bronze weld the 1" RHS Tube? Making a chassis like Arch Motors did, at Home, is it feasible? Or does it have to be so tight as everybody explains? I have already cut some tubes with a hacksaw. No rush, And i'm gathering information everywhere.
                                              >
                                              > Thanks!
                                              >
                                              > Daniel
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
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