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Personal names

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  • Tomas Baranauskas
    Zbigniew Siemienowicz wrote (concerning spelling of my name Baranauskas, not ... for ... We must bear in mind that the modern attitude to the personal names is
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 23, 2001
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      Zbigniew Siemienowicz wrote (concerning spelling of my name Baranauskas, not
      Baranouski):
      >
      > Very good! I think Tomas Baranauskas said the truth! But if we use such a
      > point of view, we should aknowledge the true names of many others: Adam
      > Mickiewicz not Adomas Mickevicius, Kazimierz Siemienowicz, not Kazimieras
      > Simonavicius, Karol Chodkiewicz, not Karolis Katkevicius and so on, and so
      > on.Moreover, they, in contrast to Mr.Tomas have no possibility to stand
      for
      > their names.

      We must bear in mind that the modern attitude to the personal names is
      different from that of the past. Before the 19th century a name of one
      person could be written in a number of variants in various languages and
      even in the same language. And this was rather a rule than exception.

      [1] We call, for example, the author of the first Lithuanian book (1547)
      Martynas Maz^vydas, but he never wrote his name exactly this way. He wrote
      his name one time Mossuidius in Latin, or Mosuidas in Lithuanian, but in
      acrostic of his rhymed Lithuanian preface to the Catechism of 1547 he wrote
      his name Masvidius. The Polish medieval chronicler Jan Dlugosz also never
      wrote his name this way. He signed his works as Joannes Dlugossius. The same
      we can say about the personal names of any other nation. In fact the more
      times a person is mentioned, the more variants of his name are known. It is
      generally accepted that all personal names of that time must be normalised
      according to the modern orthography and grammar of the nations to which they
      belonged.

      [2] It is obvious that we have problems in establishing to which modern
      nation a representative of the GDL society must belong. In fact he can
      belong to two or four nations in the same time (Lithuanian, Polish,
      Belarusian, Ukrainian). We can discuss to which nation he belongs in the
      first place - sometimes it can be clearly established, sometimes not. In
      fact the problem may be solved for these nations spelling the names of all
      representatives of the GDL in their own way. This is a solution generally
      accepted in these languages. The problem remains for writing in English, as
      there is no traditional English spelling, and we have to decide, what
      spelling we choose. We can look then, what language the person used, what
      was his origin. In the most cases the problem may be solved in this way,
      though some disputable cases will remain.

      [3] Your examples.

      Adam Mickiewicz not Adomas Mickevicius

      The spelling of the name by Mickiewicz himself is, as far as I know, already
      rather uniform - Adam Mickiewicz. His main language was Polish, but he knew
      Belarusian rather well (as he was born in Belarus), and also learned
      Lithuanian a little bit, because his origin was Lithuanian and he was a
      patriot of Lithuania. He liked to listen to the Lithuanian and Belarusian
      folk songs. According to his son Wladyslaw Mickiewicz, he liked to listen,
      how his old friend Korilski was singing Lithuanian songs. Once (c.1851-1852)
      he noted that Korilski was singing wrong some strophes. He took a sheet of
      paper and wrote these strophes correctly. This sheet of paper survived and
      was published. There are three strophes of different Lithuanian folk songs
      in it. The first of them, for example:

      Ejk Tatuszeli i bytiu darz^a
      Tinai saldej migosi.
      Wieielis puti, bitelis huz^e
      Ouz^olelis subavos.
      Tinaj saldei migoie.

      The analysis of these songs shows that Mickiewicz knew Lithuanian rather
      good, though not perfectly.

      Having in mind that Adam Mickiewicz had obvious Lithuanian
      self-consciousness, and that the Lithuanian language was also not unknown to
      him, we can't treat him as a foreigner for the Lithuanians. He belongs to
      the Lithuanians as well as to the Poles. His international spelling should
      be Adam Mickiewicz of course, but Adomas Mickevic^ius is a traditional
      spelling in Lithuanian.

      Kazimierz Siemienowicz, not Kazimieras Simonavicius,

      The matter is more complicated, because we don't know, what language he
      treated as native. Nevertheless he was a Samogitian noble, originated from
      the Raseiniai district, and the Samogitian nobles of that time (the 1st half
      of the 17th century) were speaking Lithuanian in the most cases. The
      Lithuanian spelling is still not quite clear. Somebody write Simonavic^ius,
      but more common form is Semenavic^ius.

      Karol Chodkiewicz, not Karolis Katkevicius

      The Lithuanian spelling "Katkevic^ius" is rather rear. He is called
      Chodkevic^ius most frequently in Lithuanian. The origin of the Chodkiewicz
      clan is Ukrainian (from Kiev palatinate). Jan Karol Chodkiewicz (1560-1621)
      was a son of Samogitia's governor and is mentioned in a Samogitian folk song
      as Katkus (from here the alternative Lithuanian spelling Katkevic^ius was
      derived). As the Ukrainians use Cyrillic, we can perhaps use Polish spelling
      in English (if the Ukrainians will not protest).

      ------------------
      Note, sometimes in the English texts, published in Lithuania, you can find
      even clearly Polish or other nation's names written in the Lithuanian
      spelling. These examples are not a sign of bad will, but rather mistakes of
      the translators. They usually appear this way. Translator has a Lithuanian
      text and translates it, leaving all names as he founds in Lithuanian,
      because he thinks that it is not his obligation to normalise these names for
      English. The author usually knows English rather poorly, or doesn't know it
      at all and leaves the text without proofing. Sometimes publisher, who
      doesn't speak English as well, treats these English texts as not important
      (summaries, or English versions of Lithuanian texts), and publishes them
      without showing to the author, imagining that the translator is a real
      expert of English and had done everything perfectly, so there is no need to
      waste time proofing them...

      Regards,

      Tomas Baranauskas
      Medieval Lithuania --
      http://medievallithuania.homestead.com/introduction.html
      Wooden Castle --
      http://www.geocities.com/imantas2/index-en.htm
    • David Zincavage
      The insistence on lithuanizing names of persons who actually used other linguistic forms, along with the insistence on people writing in foreign language
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 23, 2001
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        The insistence on lithuanizing names of persons who actually used other
        linguistic forms, along with the insistence on people writing in foreign
        language contexts including the nominative Lithuanian case ending, are both
        unbecoming expressions of linguistic chauvinism and testimony to the
        neurotic insecurity of the Lithuanian linguistic nationalist movement.
        Having no real history of their own, the revolutionary intelligentsia of the
        late 19th century were at pains to appropriate a heritage. Mickiewicz's
        "Lithuanian self-consciousness" could hardly be more different from theirs,
        but he --like "Tadas Kosc^ius^kas"-- is an essential feature of the history
        they desire to appropriate for their own ideological purposes.


        > Having in mind that Adam Mickiewicz had obvious Lithuanian
        > self-consciousness, and that the Lithuanian language was also not unknown
        to
        > him, we can't treat him as a foreigner for the Lithuanians. He belongs to
        > the Lithuanians as well as to the Poles. His international spelling should
        > be Adam Mickiewicz of course, but Adomas Mickevic^ius is a traditional
        > spelling in Lithuanian.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Tomas Baranauskas [mailto:baranauskas@...]
        Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 6:57 AM
        To: litvania@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [litvania] Personal names


        Zbigniew Siemienowicz wrote (concerning spelling of my name Baranauskas, not
        Baranouski):
        >
        > Very good! I think Tomas Baranauskas said the truth! But if we use such a
        > point of view, we should aknowledge the true names of many others: Adam
        > Mickiewicz not Adomas Mickevicius, Kazimierz Siemienowicz, not Kazimieras
        > Simonavicius, Karol Chodkiewicz, not Karolis Katkevicius and so on, and so
        > on.Moreover, they, in contrast to Mr.Tomas have no possibility to stand
        for
        > their names.

        We must bear in mind that the modern attitude to the personal names is
        different from that of the past. Before the 19th century a name of one
        person could be written in a number of variants in various languages and
        even in the same language. And this was rather a rule than exception.

        [1] We call, for example, the author of the first Lithuanian book (1547)
        Martynas Maz^vydas, but he never wrote his name exactly this way. He wrote
        his name one time Mossuidius in Latin, or Mosuidas in Lithuanian, but in
        acrostic of his rhymed Lithuanian preface to the Catechism of 1547 he wrote
        his name Masvidius. The Polish medieval chronicler Jan Dlugosz also never
        wrote his name this way. He signed his works as Joannes Dlugossius. The same
        we can say about the personal names of any other nation. In fact the more
        times a person is mentioned, the more variants of his name are known. It is
        generally accepted that all personal names of that time must be normalised
        according to the modern orthography and grammar of the nations to which they
        belonged.

        [2] It is obvious that we have problems in establishing to which modern
        nation a representative of the GDL society must belong. In fact he can
        belong to two or four nations in the same time (Lithuanian, Polish,
        Belarusian, Ukrainian). We can discuss to which nation he belongs in the
        first place - sometimes it can be clearly established, sometimes not. In
        fact the problem may be solved for these nations spelling the names of all
        representatives of the GDL in their own way. This is a solution generally
        accepted in these languages. The problem remains for writing in English, as
        there is no traditional English spelling, and we have to decide, what
        spelling we choose. We can look then, what language the person used, what
        was his origin. In the most cases the problem may be solved in this way,
        though some disputable cases will remain.

        [3] Your examples.

        Adam Mickiewicz not Adomas Mickevicius

        The spelling of the name by Mickiewicz himself is, as far as I know, already
        rather uniform - Adam Mickiewicz. His main language was Polish, but he knew
        Belarusian rather well (as he was born in Belarus), and also learned
        Lithuanian a little bit, because his origin was Lithuanian and he was a
        patriot of Lithuania. He liked to listen to the Lithuanian and Belarusian
        folk songs. According to his son Wladyslaw Mickiewicz, he liked to listen,
        how his old friend Korilski was singing Lithuanian songs. Once (c.1851-1852)
        he noted that Korilski was singing wrong some strophes. He took a sheet of
        paper and wrote these strophes correctly. This sheet of paper survived and
        was published. There are three strophes of different Lithuanian folk songs
        in it. The first of them, for example:

        Ejk Tatuszeli i bytiu darz^a
        Tinai saldej migosi.
        Wieielis puti, bitelis huz^e
        Ouz^olelis subavos.
        Tinaj saldei migoie.

        The analysis of these songs shows that Mickiewicz knew Lithuanian rather
        good, though not perfectly.

        Having in mind that Adam Mickiewicz had obvious Lithuanian
        self-consciousness, and that the Lithuanian language was also not unknown to
        him, we can't treat him as a foreigner for the Lithuanians. He belongs to
        the Lithuanians as well as to the Poles. His international spelling should
        be Adam Mickiewicz of course, but Adomas Mickevic^ius is a traditional
        spelling in Lithuanian.

        Kazimierz Siemienowicz, not Kazimieras Simonavicius,

        The matter is more complicated, because we don't know, what language he
        treated as native. Nevertheless he was a Samogitian noble, originated from
        the Raseiniai district, and the Samogitian nobles of that time (the 1st half
        of the 17th century) were speaking Lithuanian in the most cases. The
        Lithuanian spelling is still not quite clear. Somebody write Simonavic^ius,
        but more common form is Semenavic^ius.

        Karol Chodkiewicz, not Karolis Katkevicius

        The Lithuanian spelling "Katkevic^ius" is rather rear. He is called
        Chodkevic^ius most frequently in Lithuanian. The origin of the Chodkiewicz
        clan is Ukrainian (from Kiev palatinate). Jan Karol Chodkiewicz (1560-1621)
        was a son of Samogitia's governor and is mentioned in a Samogitian folk song
        as Katkus (from here the alternative Lithuanian spelling Katkevic^ius was
        derived). As the Ukrainians use Cyrillic, we can perhaps use Polish spelling
        in English (if the Ukrainians will not protest).

        ------------------
        Note, sometimes in the English texts, published in Lithuania, you can find
        even clearly Polish or other nation's names written in the Lithuanian
        spelling. These examples are not a sign of bad will, but rather mistakes of
        the translators. They usually appear this way. Translator has a Lithuanian
        text and translates it, leaving all names as he founds in Lithuanian,
        because he thinks that it is not his obligation to normalise these names for
        English. The author usually knows English rather poorly, or doesn't know it
        at all and leaves the text without proofing. Sometimes publisher, who
        doesn't speak English as well, treats these English texts as not important
        (summaries, or English versions of Lithuanian texts), and publishes them
        without showing to the author, imagining that the translator is a real
        expert of English and had done everything perfectly, so there is no need to
        waste time proofing them...

        Regards,

        Tomas Baranauskas
        Medieval Lithuania --
        http://medievallithuania.homestead.com/introduction.html
        Wooden Castle --
        http://www.geocities.com/imantas2/index-en.htm






        -----
        Litvania Web Site -- http://members.nbci.com/litvania/
        Litvania Owner's Page -- http://www.geocities.com/uladzik/
        "Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jestes jak zdrowie;
        Ile cie trzeba cenic, ten tylko sie dowie,
        Kto cie stracil." -- Adam Mickievicz, Pan Tadevusz
        -----




        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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      • Tomas Baranauskas
        ... both ... the ... theirs, ... history ... You are making ideology from purely linguistic problem, the existence of which is just an additional occasion for
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 23, 2001
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          David Zincavage wrote:

          > The insistence on lithuanizing names of persons who actually used other
          > linguistic forms, along with the insistence on people writing in foreign
          > language contexts including the nominative Lithuanian case ending, are
          both
          > unbecoming expressions of linguistic chauvinism and testimony to the
          > neurotic insecurity of the Lithuanian linguistic nationalist movement.
          > Having no real history of their own, the revolutionary intelligentsia of
          the
          > late 19th century were at pains to appropriate a heritage. Mickiewicz's
          > "Lithuanian self-consciousness" could hardly be more different from
          theirs,
          > but he --like "Tadas Kosc^ius^kas"-- is an essential feature of the
          history
          > they desire to appropriate for their own ideological purposes.

          You are making ideology from purely linguistic problem, the existence of
          which is just an additional occasion for you to repeat your usual
          vocabulary, used to define "Lithuanian linguistical nationalism". I've
          already written about the problems connected with Lithuanian orthography and
          spelling of foreign names (see my message "Dividing history", posted on the
          3rd of March).

          In the same time you have no understanding about the Lithuanian grammar -
          that is obvious from your requirement not to use nominative case ending
          together with the foreign names in Lithuanian. It is impossible, because the
          relations among the words in the sentence are expressed by the case endings,
          and you can't place a foreign name into the Lithuanian sentence without case
          ending. It would sound very strangely and contradict to the Lithuanian
          grammar. If it is "chauvinism", than the Lithuanian language itself is
          "chauvinistic". And besides, such "Lithuanian" spelling as "Kosc^ius^kas
          doesn't exist and never existed (he is Koscius^ka in Lithuanian, in some
          older literature you can find also Kostius^ka; nominative case ending here
          is "-a"; it is not always "-as", though "-as" is the most common; however,
          you must know the rules in order choose nominative case ending correctly).

          All this spelling problems has nothing in common with the attempts to
          appropriate any person. And nobody says that Mickiewicz's Lithuanian
          self-consciousness was not different from modern Lithuanian. It was
          different, though not reverse to the modern self-consciousness, because
          there were common points as well.


          Tomas Baranauskas
          Medieval Lithuania --
          http://medievallithuania.homestead.com/introduction.html
          Wooden Castle --
          http://www.geocities.com/imantas2/index-en.htm
        • David Zincavage
          In a Lithuanian language context, the use of suffixes is natural enough, but I was referring to the extensive use of them in English language nationalist
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 23, 2001
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            In a Lithuanian language context, the use of suffixes is natural enough, but
            I was referring to the extensive use of them in English language nationalist
            publications.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Tomas Baranauskas [mailto:baranauskas@...]
            Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 10:37 AM
            To: litvania@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [litvania] Personal names


            David Zincavage wrote:

            > The insistence on lithuanizing names of persons who actually used other
            > linguistic forms, along with the insistence on people writing in foreign
            > language contexts including the nominative Lithuanian case ending, are
            both
            > unbecoming expressions of linguistic chauvinism and testimony to the
            > neurotic insecurity of the Lithuanian linguistic nationalist movement.
            > Having no real history of their own, the revolutionary intelligentsia of
            the
            > late 19th century were at pains to appropriate a heritage. Mickiewicz's
            > "Lithuanian self-consciousness" could hardly be more different from
            theirs,
            > but he --like "Tadas Kosc^ius^kas"-- is an essential feature of the
            history
            > they desire to appropriate for their own ideological purposes.

            You are making ideology from purely linguistic problem, the existence of
            which is just an additional occasion for you to repeat your usual
            vocabulary, used to define "Lithuanian linguistical nationalism". I've
            already written about the problems connected with Lithuanian orthography and
            spelling of foreign names (see my message "Dividing history", posted on the
            3rd of March).

            In the same time you have no understanding about the Lithuanian grammar -
            that is obvious from your requirement not to use nominative case ending
            together with the foreign names in Lithuanian. It is impossible, because the
            relations among the words in the sentence are expressed by the case endings,
            and you can't place a foreign name into the Lithuanian sentence without case
            ending. It would sound very strangely and contradict to the Lithuanian
            grammar. If it is "chauvinism", than the Lithuanian language itself is
            "chauvinistic". And besides, such "Lithuanian" spelling as "Kosc^ius^kas
            doesn't exist and never existed (he is Koscius^ka in Lithuanian, in some
            older literature you can find also Kostius^ka; nominative case ending here
            is "-a"; it is not always "-as", though "-as" is the most common; however,
            you must know the rules in order choose nominative case ending correctly).

            All this spelling problems has nothing in common with the attempts to
            appropriate any person. And nobody says that Mickiewicz's Lithuanian
            self-consciousness was not different from modern Lithuanian. It was
            different, though not reverse to the modern self-consciousness, because
            there were common points as well.


            Tomas Baranauskas
            Medieval Lithuania --
            http://medievallithuania.homestead.com/introduction.html
            Wooden Castle --
            http://www.geocities.com/imantas2/index-en.htm





            -----
            Litvania Web Site -- http://members.nbci.com/litvania/
            Litvania Owner's Page -- http://www.geocities.com/uladzik/
            "Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jestes jak zdrowie;
            Ile cie trzeba cenic, ten tylko sie dowie,
            Kto cie stracil." -- Adam Mickievicz, Pan Tadevusz
            -----




            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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          • Geoffrey Vasil
            I think we could agree that every linguistic group has to solve the problem of referrence to outside words, concepts and places with the resources available to
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 24, 2001
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              I think we could agree that every linguistic group has to solve the
              problem of referrence to outside words, concepts and places with the
              resources available to that group. Tomas isn't telling the whole truth --
              foreign words regularly appear in Lithuanian every day without
              declensions. Just try to decline Williams International, or give a gender
              to LUKoil. The Lithuanian practice is to isolate these intruders with
              quotation marks.

              I have to say it sounds pretty funny to me when the Polish news on channel
              11 in Vilnius insists on retaining the -s ending even for obviously Polish
              surnames, and then tacks on Polish declensions, while Polish names get the
              obligatory Lithuanian -s as well. Where's the equal time in that?

              Geoffrey


              On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, David Zincavage wrote:

              > Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:09:11 -0500
              > From: David Zincavage <jdz@...>
              > Reply-To: litvania@yahoogroups.com
              > To: litvania@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [litvania] Personal names
              >
              > In a Lithuanian language context, the use of suffixes is natural enough, but
              > I was referring to the extensive use of them in English language nationalist
              > publications.
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Tomas Baranauskas [mailto:baranauskas@...]
              > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 10:37 AM
              > To: litvania@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [litvania] Personal names
              >
              >
              > David Zincavage wrote:
              >
              > > The insistence on lithuanizing names of persons who actually used other
              > > linguistic forms, along with the insistence on people writing in foreign
              > > language contexts including the nominative Lithuanian case ending, are
              > both
              > > unbecoming expressions of linguistic chauvinism and testimony to the
              > > neurotic insecurity of the Lithuanian linguistic nationalist movement.
              > > Having no real history of their own, the revolutionary intelligentsia of
              > the
              > > late 19th century were at pains to appropriate a heritage. Mickiewicz's
              > > "Lithuanian self-consciousness" could hardly be more different from
              > theirs,
              > > but he --like "Tadas Kosc^ius^kas"-- is an essential feature of the
              > history
              > > they desire to appropriate for their own ideological purposes.
              >
              > You are making ideology from purely linguistic problem, the existence of
              > which is just an additional occasion for you to repeat your usual
              > vocabulary, used to define "Lithuanian linguistical nationalism". I've
              > already written about the problems connected with Lithuanian orthography and
              > spelling of foreign names (see my message "Dividing history", posted on the
              > 3rd of March).
              >
              > In the same time you have no understanding about the Lithuanian grammar -
              > that is obvious from your requirement not to use nominative case ending
              > together with the foreign names in Lithuanian. It is impossible, because the
              > relations among the words in the sentence are expressed by the case endings,
              > and you can't place a foreign name into the Lithuanian sentence without case
              > ending. It would sound very strangely and contradict to the Lithuanian
              > grammar. If it is "chauvinism", than the Lithuanian language itself is
              > "chauvinistic". And besides, such "Lithuanian" spelling as "Kosc^ius^kas
              > doesn't exist and never existed (he is Koscius^ka in Lithuanian, in some
              > older literature you can find also Kostius^ka; nominative case ending here
              > is "-a"; it is not always "-as", though "-as" is the most common; however,
              > you must know the rules in order choose nominative case ending correctly).
              >
              > All this spelling problems has nothing in common with the attempts to
              > appropriate any person. And nobody says that Mickiewicz's Lithuanian
              > self-consciousness was not different from modern Lithuanian. It was
              > different, though not reverse to the modern self-consciousness, because
              > there were common points as well.
              >
              >
              > Tomas Baranauskas
              > Medieval Lithuania --
              > http://medievallithuania.homestead.com/introduction.html
              > Wooden Castle --
              > http://www.geocities.com/imantas2/index-en.htm
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----
              > Litvania Web Site -- http://members.nbci.com/litvania/
              > Litvania Owner's Page -- http://www.geocities.com/uladzik/
              > "Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jestes jak zdrowie;
              > Ile cie trzeba cenic, ten tylko sie dowie,
              > Kto cie stracil." -- Adam Mickievicz, Pan Tadevusz
              > -----
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
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              >
              >
              > -----
              > Litvania Web Site -- http://members.nbci.com/litvania/
              > Litvania Owner's Page -- http://www.geocities.com/uladzik/
              > "Litwo! Ojczyzno moja! ty jestes jak zdrowie;
              > Ile cie trzeba cenic, ten tylko sie dowie,
              > Kto cie stracil." -- Adam Mickievicz, Pan Tadevusz
              > -----
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
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