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Re: [liturgy-l] L.A. Cathedral

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  • Douglas Cowling
    ... I ve learned never to judge any church when it is empty. It only becomes a church when it is full of worshippers. Doug Cowling
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 1, 2002
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      on 9/1/02 8:51 PM, Lewis H Whitaker at aspern@... wrote:

      > Yes. I must admit, Milwaukee left me rather cold as well. Doug *did* say it
      > much better than me, though.
      >
      > Lew


      I've learned never to judge any church when it is empty. It only becomes a
      church when it is full of worshippers.


      Doug Cowling
      ____________________________________________________________
      Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
      Church of the Messiah
      Toronto
    • Lewis H Whitaker
      John: Well of course my opinion is my own. I wasn t speaking ex cathedra. And while I have not been there for liturgy, not that you knew that, I still maintain
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 1, 2002
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        John:

        Well of course my opinion is my own. I wasn't speaking ex cathedra. And
        while I have not been there for liturgy, not that you knew that, I still
        maintain that I find that the RENOVATION leaves me cold. That was all I was
        commenting on. I've seen beautiful liturgy in some of the most godawful
        liturgical spaces imaginable.

        Lew


        -----Original Message-----
        From: John Seboldt [mailto:rohrwerk@...]
        Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:26 PM
        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] L.A. Cathedral


        At 08:51 PM 9/1/02 -0400, you wrote:
        >Yes. I must admit, Milwaukee left me rather cold as well. Doug *did* say it
        >much better than me, though.
        >
        >Lew

        Your opinion is your own, of course. But if you haven't been there for
        liturgy, it is impossible to make a final judgment.

        Like Abp Weakland said at the dedication ceremonies: "This is a great
        church. And the building is nice, too."

        John Seboldt
      • Thomas R. Jackson
        ... Just a point of accuracy. Latin Church norms for placement of the tabernacle never demanded that it be placed in a side chapel. For a time, the norms did
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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          >Don't worry - there are plenty of new and renovated spaces taking these
          >newer norms on tabernacle placement into consideration. But now for the sad
          >exception ... a new building project in the archdiocese, headed up by one
          >of the deans of the archdiocese, with the tabernacle "behind the altar -
          >where it belongs".


          Just a point of accuracy. Latin Church norms for placement of the
          tabernacle never demanded that it be placed in a side chapel. For a time,
          the norms did express this preference, but that is no longer the case. The
          change of legislation was not a unilateral Roman initiative. Regional
          jurisdictions, including the US, had already expressed concerns about the
          abuses which stemmed from an overzealous, or at times simply wrongheaded,
          application of the old norms, and their incongruity with the sensibilities
          of the Catholic faithful. So, the Dean of which you mention, whatever one
          might think of his judgement, is not necessarily ignoring the norms in
          force, or the their spirit.

          thomas
        • fcsenn@aol.com
          Take a look at this new church in the center of Reykjavik, Iceland (behind the statue of Leif Eriksson). It s the Hallgrimur Petursson Church, named after one
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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            Take a look at this new church in the center of Reykjavik, Iceland (behind
            the statue of Leif Eriksson). It's the Hallgrimur Petursson Church, named
            after one of Iceland's greatest hymn writers (kind of looks like organ
            pipes). It's much bigger than the old classical style Lutheran cathedral,
            built in the 18th century when the population was down.
            (Yes, that me and my wife Mary standing on the base of the statue.)
            FCSenn[Unable to display image]


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • fcsenn@aol.com
            In a message dated 9/2/2002 8:45:57 AM Central Standard Time, fcsenn@aol.com ... Well, I guess I learned that I couldn t send pictures to the list. But
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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              In a message dated 9/2/2002 8:45:57 AM Central Standard Time, fcsenn@...
              writes:


              > Take a look at this new church in the center of Reykjavik, Iceland (behind
              > the statue of Leif Eriksson). It's the Hallgrimur Petursson Church, named
              > after one of Iceland's greatest hymn writers (kind of looks like organ
              > pipes). It's much bigger than the old classical style Lutheran cathedral,
              > built in the 18th century when the population was down.
              > (Yes, that me and my wife Mary standing on the base of the statue.)
              > FCSenn[Unable to display image]
              >

              Well, I guess I learned that I couldn't send pictures to the list. But
              talking about architecture without see it is...well, like listening to an art
              critic on the radio (which regularly happens on the otherwise admirable
              WFMT-AM in Chicago). In any event, those who are interested can go to a
              Reykjavik tourism site on the internet.

              FCSenn


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Thomas R. Jackson
              ... The best way to do it would be to post the picture in the photo section of the yahoo group. The directions are pretty straight forward, and it gets
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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                >Well, I guess I learned that I couldn't send pictures to the list.


                The best way to do it would be to post the picture in the photo section of
                the yahoo group. The directions are pretty straight forward, and it gets
                picture files to the group without worrying about E-mail attchements.

                thomas
              • John Seboldt
                ... No doubt true. And the post of our Orthodox brother on the pastoral sensibility issues certainly kept this in perspective as well. I can have some grudging
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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                  >Just a point of accuracy. Latin Church norms for placement of the
                  >tabernacle never demanded that it be placed in a side chapel. For a time,
                  >the norms did express this preference, but that is no longer the case. The
                  >change of legislation was not a unilateral Roman initiative. Regional
                  >jurisdictions, including the US, had already expressed concerns about the
                  >abuses which stemmed from an overzealous, or at times simply wrongheaded,
                  >application of the old norms, and their incongruity with the sensibilities
                  >of the Catholic faithful. So, the Dean of which you mention, whatever one
                  >might think of his judgement, is not necessarily ignoring the norms in
                  >force, or the their spirit.
                  >
                  >thomas

                  No doubt true. And the post of our Orthodox brother on the pastoral
                  sensibility issues certainly kept this in perspective as well.

                  I can have some grudging respect for the man's view. I still wouldn't wanna
                  work there ;-) .

                  John Seboldt
                • Heavyruner@aol.com
                  In a message dated 9/1/02 8:24:45 PM Central Daylight Time, ... I could not agree more, John. Having followed the trouble this last year or two, I find it
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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                    In a message dated 9/1/02 8:24:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
                    rohrwerk@... writes:


                    > Your opinion is your own, of course. But if you haven't been there for
                    > liturgy, it is impossible to make a final judgment.
                    >
                    > Like Abp Weakland said at the dedication ceremonies: "This is a great
                    > church. And the building is nice, too."
                    >
                    > John Seboldt
                    >

                    I could not agree more, John. Having followed the "trouble" this last year or
                    two, I find it hard to see what the fuss was all about. There is just no
                    pleasing some people. "Sterile"!! So much for the wisdom of the desert
                    fathers and mothers. "Go to your cell. It will teach you everything." St.
                    John's is hardly sterile. It postively gleams. That is my opinion. The rest
                    can keep their kitsched-up and hidebound museums. What is especially sweet is
                    that the renovation of St. John's was recognized with a national award: the
                    2002 Religious Art and Architecture Awards presented annually by Faith and
                    Form. St. John's was honored precisely for its renovation. It is an award
                    well-deserved.

                    David Oliver-Holder
                    Kettle Moraine United Presbyterian Church
                    Hartland, Wisconsin


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lewis H Whitaker
                    OK, let me be perfectly clear on this. I don t particularly care for the St. John s renovation. This is my personal opinion. As I noted, however, I ve seen
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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                      OK, let me be perfectly clear on this. I don't particularly care for the St.
                      John's renovation. This is my personal opinion. As I noted, however, I've
                      seen liturgies work EXTREMELY well in spaces that I found unattractive. I
                      worshipped in an extremely vibrant parish for many years that had an ultra
                      modern church that was not to my taste. What bothers me about the renovation
                      of so many churches is the wholesale destruction of many pieces of
                      beautiful, sacred pieces of art (at a friend's parish the marble altar rail
                      was dismantled, pulverized, and used as "gravel" on the drive). I'd hardly
                      consider an altar rail "kitsch." Nor would I call an old, traditionally
                      appointed church a "hidebound museum." Many of these items have deep,
                      abiding significance to people. Quite simply, it is painful to see them
                      excised in such a way.

                      As for the comment about the desert fathers....I don't think that one could
                      compare the old plan of St. John's, or the new plan of St. John's to the
                      simplicity of the desert fathers. This is comparing the proverbial apple to
                      the proverbial orange. St. John's is neither a monastic church, nor a
                      monastic cell. Each building is raised for specific purposes. I'm not saying
                      that I'd never worship at St. John's, nor am I saying that I would pass up
                      the opportunity to see it in person. Pictures can only say so much. I'm
                      quite open to changing my opinion, and never suggested otherwise.

                      Finally, one can win architectural awards all day for all I care. If a
                      building doesn't speak to me, it doesn't speak. Plenty of modern
                      architecture has won plenty of architectural awards...mainly given out by
                      panels of modern architects! None of this means I hafta like it!

                      My opinions. When I speak "ex cathedra," I'll be sure to give you all fair
                      warning.

                      Lew


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Heavyruner@... [mailto:Heavyruner@...]
                      Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 1:19 PM
                      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] L.A. Cathedral


                      In a message dated 9/1/02 8:24:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
                      rohrwerk@... writes:


                      > Your opinion is your own, of course. But if you haven't been there for
                      > liturgy, it is impossible to make a final judgment.
                      >
                      > Like Abp Weakland said at the dedication ceremonies: "This is a great
                      > church. And the building is nice, too."
                      >
                      > John Seboldt
                      >

                      I could not agree more, John. Having followed the "trouble" this last year
                      or
                      two, I find it hard to see what the fuss was all about. There is just no
                      pleasing some people. "Sterile"!! So much for the wisdom of the desert
                      fathers and mothers. "Go to your cell. It will teach you everything." St.
                      John's is hardly sterile. It postively gleams. That is my opinion. The rest
                      can keep their kitsched-up and hidebound museums. What is especially sweet
                      is
                      that the renovation of St. John's was recognized with a national award: the
                      2002 Religious Art and Architecture Awards presented annually by Faith and
                      Form. St. John's was honored precisely for its renovation. It is an award
                      well-deserved.

                      David Oliver-Holder
                      Kettle Moraine United Presbyterian Church
                      Hartland, Wisconsin


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                    • Maureen Lahiff
                      I suggest comments be put on hold until y all visit. See what the soaring interior with the light warmed by alabaster windows feels like. See what the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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                        I suggest comments be put on hold until y'all visit.

                        See what the soaring interior with the light warmed by alabaster 'windows'
                        feels like.

                        See what the tapestries look like.

                        Walk in and see a 17th century wood retablo in the entrance way.

                        See what the cherry wood of the pews and their structure say to your eyes
                        (and your backsides.)

                        See how the building looks from the freeways, the vantage point from which
                        many people will experience it, and how it meshes (or fails to) with the
                        auditoria and civic buildings that are its neighbors.

                        Assess how the spoken and sung word are experienced. (A major criterion
                        for me, as it's really hard to design a space and sound system that serve
                        both spoken and sung word well.)

                        Grey gothic stone can be considered 'sterile' too!
                      • Bob White
                        ... You can upload pictures to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/files/ Click on add a file near the top of the page. Bob + + + + + + + + + + +
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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                          On 2 Sep 2002 at 9:52, fcsenn@... wrote:

                          > Well, I guess I learned that I couldn't send pictures to the list.

                          You can upload pictures to:

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/files/

                          Click on "add a file" near the top of the page.

                          Bob

                          + + + + + + + + + + +
                          Whatsoever we beg of God, let us also work for it.
                          ------Jeremy Taylor (1613-67)

                          Pastor Robert White
                          Christ the Redeemer Lutheran Church (ELCA)
                          863 Silliman Ave.
                          Erie, PA USA 16511-2060
                          814-899-3264
                          email: rwhite@...
                          church: christredeemer@...
                        • fcsenn@aol.com
                          In a message dated 9/2/2002 2:17:23 PM Central Standard Time, ... Well, I d need to know my ID and Password, which I don t, to get in and do this. FCSenn
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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                            In a message dated 9/2/2002 2:17:23 PM Central Standard Time,
                            rwhite@... writes:


                            >
                            > You can upload pictures to:
                            >
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/files/
                            >
                            > Click on "add a file" near the top of the page.
                            >

                            Well, I'd need to know my ID and Password, which I don't, to get in and do
                            this.

                            FCSenn


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Thomas R. Jackson
                            ... Ah. You need to register with Yahoo Groups. http://www.groups.yahoo.com I believe is the URL. There is a registration process, which takes a few minutes.
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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                              > >
                              > > You can upload pictures to:
                              > >
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/files/
                              > >
                              > > Click on "add a file" near the top of the page.
                              > >
                              >
                              >Well, I'd need to know my ID and Password, which I don't, to get in and do
                              >this.
                              >
                              >FCSenn


                              Ah. You need to register with Yahoo Groups.

                              http://www.groups.yahoo.com

                              I believe is the URL. There is a registration process, which takes a few
                              minutes. The usual questions: name, e-mail address, password, etc. Be
                              sure to select the no spam options. After you are registered, you can use
                              all the extended features, which are worthwhile. It's a one time hassle.

                              thomas.
                            • Bob White
                              ... For those who haven t registered--I have several yahoo lists and don t get unwanted mail, but you do have to turn off some defaults: After you register,
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 2, 2002
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                                On 2 Sep 2002 at 20:27, Thomas R. Jackson wrote:

                                > There is a registration process, which takes a few minutes. The usual
                                > questions: name, e-mail address, password, etc. Be sure to select
                                > the no spam options.

                                For those who haven't registered--I have several yahoo lists and
                                don't get unwanted mail, but you do have to turn off some defaults:

                                After you register, click on "account info"; then click on "edit your
                                marketting preferences" and unclick what you don't want; on the
                                marketting preferences page under "Yahoo delivers" click on edit
                                preferences and make your choice or not.

                                As Thomas noted, there are some advantages to registeration.

                                Bob

                                + + + + + + + + + + +
                                What an enormous magnifier is tradition! How a thing grows in
                                the human memory and in the human imagination, when love, worship,
                                and all that lies in the human heart, is there to encourage it.
                                -----Thomas Carlyle

                                Pastor Robert White
                                Christ the Redeemer Lutheran Church (ELCA)
                                863 Silliman Ave.
                                Erie, PA USA 16511-2060
                                814-899-3264
                                email: rwhite@...
                                church: christredeemer@...
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