Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Peshach Shalom

Expand Messages
  • M. Thannisch
    Peshach shalom you all. Please join me in this night in praying for the Jews that they would come to knwo our Mesiah, and that we would reach out to them in
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 27, 2002
      Peshach shalom you'all. Please join me in this night in praying for the Jews that they would come to knwo our Mesiah, and that we would reach out to them in love.

      By the way, I cannot resist sharing a joke I recieved from a rabbinical source.
      Queen Elizabeth was knighting a group of people, one of which included a Jew. When his turn came, he could not remember the correct response in Norman French, so he responded with the Sh'ma, since it was also a foreign sounding phrase. Queen Elizabeth responded, Why is this knight different from all other knights!"


      Next year in Jerusalem.


      Shalom in Yeshua ha Moshiach

      Michael Joe Thannisch
      mjthan@...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James O'Regan
      ... The RC Tridentine rite used to pray for the conversion of Jews, (Feria Sexta in Parasceve, MR, Ratisbone, 1946, p. 194). Since Vatican II, RC s have ceased
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 28, 2002
        M. Thannisch wrote and I snipped:

        > Please join me in this night in praying for the Jews that
        > they would come to knwo our Mesiah, and that we would reach out to
        > them in love.

        The RC Tridentine rite used to pray for the
        conversion of Jews, (Feria Sexta in Parasceve,
        MR, Ratisbone, 1946, p. 194). Since Vatican II,
        RC's have ceased that dubious practice and pray
        instead for the Jewish people within their own
        dignity and covenant. There is a possibility for
        subtext at ""may arrive at the fullness of
        redemption." (Good Friday, For the Jewish
        People, Sacramentary, CCCB, 1983, p. 232)

        Nevertheless, the centuries of Christian anti-
        semitism has finally led at least one main
        Christian tradition to stop overtly and officially
        praying for Jewish conversion.

        In my view, any request to pray for such an event
        is an affront to the dignity of not only Jews but
        any non-Christian tradition.

        In any event, in my view, it certainly doesn't
        belong on this list.

        James O'Regan
        http://www.jamesoregan.com
        tel 613-824-4706
      • fcsenn@aol.com
        In a message dated 3/28/2002 8:54:50 AM Central Standard Time, ... This bid in the old Bidding Prayer (which Lutherans had in their service books) led the ILCW
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 28, 2002
          In a message dated 3/28/2002 8:54:50 AM Central Standard Time,
          oregan@... writes:


          > The RC Tridentine rite used to pray for the
          > conversion of Jews, (Feria Sexta in Parasceve,
          > MR, Ratisbone, 1946, p. 194). Since Vatican II,
          > RC's have ceased that dubious practice and pray
          > instead for the Jewish people within their own
          > dignity and covenant. There is a possibility for
          > subtext at ""may arrive at the fullness of
          > redemption." (Good Friday, For the Jewish
          > People, Sacramentary, CCCB, 1983, p. 232)
          >
          > Nevertheless, the centuries of Christian anti-
          > semitism has finally led at least one main
          > Christian tradition to stop overtly and officially
          > praying for Jewish conversion.
          >

          This bid in the old Bidding Prayer (which Lutherans had in their service
          books) led the ILCW to drop the Reproaches entirely in the Good Friday
          Liturgy in the LBW Ministers Book. The chorale of Johann Heermann, "Ah, Holy
          Jesus, how hast thou offended," was substituted in its place. But the
          Methodist and Presbyterian worship books did an admirable job of reworking
          the Reproaches. We pray for the Jewish people that they may arrive with us
          at the fullness of salvation, according to God's promise in the covenant. I
          have used the Reproaches from the Presbyterian Book of Common Worship on Good
          Friday.

          Last year, when I did this at the Community Good Friday Service hosted at my
          church, the local Presbyterian minister was very impressed with the text and
          wanted to know where he could find it. :)

          FCSenn


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • fcsenn@aol.com
          In a message dated 3/28/2002 9:25:47 AM Central Standard Time, fcsenn@aol.com ... I m sorry. This post seems to confuse the Bidding Prayer and the Reproaches.
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 28, 2002
            In a message dated 3/28/2002 9:25:47 AM Central Standard Time, fcsenn@...
            writes:


            > This bid in the old Bidding Prayer (which Lutherans had in their service
            > books) led the ILCW to drop the Reproaches entirely in the Good Friday
            > Liturgy in the LBW Ministers Book. The chorale of Johann Heermann, "Ah,
            > Holy
            > Jesus, how hast thou offended," was substituted in its place. But the
            > Methodist and Presbyterian worship books did an admirable job of reworking
            > the Reproaches. We pray for the Jewish people that they may arrive with us
            > at the fullness of salvation, according to God's promise in the covenant.
            > I
            > have used the Reproaches from the Presbyterian Book of Common Worship on
            > Good
            > Friday.
            >

            I'm sorry. This post seems to confuse the Bidding Prayer and the Reproaches.
            What I had in mind was that the bid for the conversion of the Jews and the
            text of the Reproaches were equally problematic. The LBW accepted the Roman
            subtext in its version of the Bidding Prayer and dropped the Reproaches. The
            Methodist/Presbyterian revisions of the Bidding Prayer and the Reproaches
            (it's the same text in both books, perhaps the work of James White) are both
            good, and I have used both. The thrust of the revised bid is as I described
            it in the above post.

            I'm now fasting from the computer for the Three Days. A blessed Triduum and
            paschal celebration to you all.

            FCSenn


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Thomas R. Jackson
            ... The current prayer from the Roman Sacramentary (in the English translation found in the US Sacramentary) on Good Friday is: Let us pray for the Jewish
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 28, 2002
              >The RC Tridentine rite used to pray for the
              >conversion of Jews, (Feria Sexta in Parasceve,
              >MR, Ratisbone, 1946, p. 194). Since Vatican II,
              >RC's have ceased that dubious practice and pray
              >instead for the Jewish people within their own
              >dignity and covenant.


              The current prayer from the Roman Sacramentary (in the English translation
              found in the US Sacramentary) on Good Friday is:

              Let us pray
              for the Jewish people,
              the first to hear the word of God,
              that they may continue to grow in the love of his name
              and in faithfulness to his covenant.

              Almighty and eternal God,
              long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity.
              Listen to your Church as we pray
              that the people you first made your own
              may arrive at the fullness of redemption.

              We ask this through Christ our Lord.


              While this does represent a change from the traditional text, and it is
              certainly true that sensitivities regarding Jewish Christian relations were
              influential in these changes, I do not see anything in the prayer that
              suggests that we are now praying that Jews within their own covenant, or
              that repudiates praying for Jewish conversion to Christ. I think this is
              an eisegesis.

              thomas.
            • jamesoregan
              ... covenant Here is the text that you quote: that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. Since the covenant
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 28, 2002
                Thomas R. Jackson wrote and I snipped:

                > I do not see anything in the prayer that
                > suggests that we are now praying that Jews within their own
                covenant

                Here is the text that you quote: "that they may continue to grow in
                the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant."

                Since the covenant mentioned in the actual prayer is not described
                as the "new covenant," we must read the out of the text its original
                and continuing meaning, i.e. that it is the covenant that the God of
                Israel had and continues to have with his people. Unless, you are
                denying that and saying that all conevants now default to the new
                covenant.

                > , or
                > that repudiates praying for Jewish conversion to Christ.

                This is a matter of text and context. The current prayer does not
                call for Jewish conversion. The Tridentine prayer speaks of
                the "false Jew" who is blind to the true light:

                "Oremus et pro perfidis Judaeis: ut Deus et Dominus noster auferat
                velamen de cordibus eorum; ut et ipsi agnoscant Jesum Chriustum,
                Dominum notsrum. "

                Let's try that in English "And so let us pray for the trecherous (or
                false or faithless - pick one) Jew; that our Lord and God may
                remove the covering over their hearts; so that they will recognize
                Jesus Christ, Our Lord" or words to that effect.

                "Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui etiam judaicam perfidiam a tua
                misericordia non repelilis: ex audi preces nostras, quas pro illus
                populi obcaecatione deferimus; ut, agnita veritas tuae lucae, quae
                Christus est, a suis tenebris eruantur. Per eundem Dominem. Amen

                And how about this: "Almighty and everlasting God, who does not
                turn away the treacherous Jew from your compassion; hear our prayer,
                that we may remove the blindness of that people; so that they will
                know your true light, which is Christ, and eradicate their
                blindness. Through the same Lord. Amen"

                Sorry for the horrible translation but I think we get the idea.

                My point is that the RC church used to Jew-bash. And lex orandi lex
                credendi tended to spread that attitude around RC circles by
                definition almost. Now, there is a respect for Jews as Jews not as
                possible Christians. At least, that's what the prayers of the two
                eras say. What individuals say is another matter.

                Is the new prayer a repudiation? Well, I didn't claim "repudiation."
                That would be an eisegesis, quid?

                > I think this is an eisegesis.

                Yeah, right. Think again.
              • Thomas R. Jackson
                ... Well, that is your point in this new post, and you made it well. I agree. It was not, however, the point you made in your last post, or the point with
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 28, 2002
                  >My point is that the RC church used to Jew-bash. And lex orandi lex
                  >credendi tended to spread that attitude around RC circles by
                  >definition almost.


                  Well, that is your point in this new post, and you made it well. I
                  agree. It was not, however, the point you made in your last post, or the
                  point with which I quibbled.

                  I am really not sure what "the fullness of redemption" might mean from a
                  Catholic perspective if it is not life in Christ. I know that it is
                  fashionable for folks to talk about some separate track to redemption for
                  Jews that doesn't involve Christ, but I look in vain to find this in any
                  Church teaching. When you say, as you did, that we no longer pray for the
                  conversion of Jews to Christ, you have added something that goes beyond the
                  text of the prayers. What we __ do, I think, in these new prayers, is that
                  we respect the integrity and good faith efforts of Jews, we refrain from
                  making judgements on them, either individually or as a group, we certainly
                  refrain from the ugly language, and we make our prayer for their redemption
                  with words which avoids the confrontational language of the past, and in
                  terms which, though faithful to Christian teaching, also reaches for common
                  ground.

                  thomas.
                • cantor03@aol.com
                  The Tridentine Rite [alive and well in the majority of the Roman Catholic dioceses in the USA] still uses the notorious collect which prays for the conversion
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 28, 2002
                    The Tridentine Rite [alive and well in the majority of the Roman Catholic
                    dioceses in the USA] still uses the notorious collect which prays for the
                    conversion of the "judaicam perfidiam". It's among the many solemn collects
                    for Good Friday, which are separated by: "Oremus. Flectamus genua".

                    David Strang.
                  • M. Thannisch
                    I seem to have steppped on some toes. Believe me, no-one respects the Jewish people more than I. My family had a Seder last night and this morning we
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 28, 2002
                      I seem to have steppped on some toes. Believe me, no-one respects the
                      Jewish people more than I. My family had a Seder last night and this
                      morning we celebrated Pesach with an Orthodox Jewish Congregation. God
                      willing, Saturday, we will celebrate with a Messianic Jewish Congregation.

                      Now I know this is not liturgy, and I apologise to the moderators, but just
                      as I understand Jesus Christ better by understanding His Jewishness, so will
                      the Jews find new meaning in their liturgies (and their Seder, which screams
                      Jesus). I do believe they are God's chosen people, and admire them. Since
                      I admire them, I want them to be all they can by being all they can in our
                      and their Messiah, Yeshua.

                      Shalom in Yeshua ha Moshiach

                      Michael Joe Thannisch
                      mjthan@...
                    • fbauerschmidt
                      ... Catholic ... for the ... collects ... If I recall correctly (my 1962 missal is on the other side of the Atlantic, so I can t consult with it), the 1962
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 28, 2002
                        --- In liturgy-l@y..., cantor03@a... wrote:
                        > The Tridentine Rite [alive and well in the majority of the Roman
                        Catholic
                        > dioceses in the USA] still uses the notorious collect which prays
                        for the
                        > conversion of the "judaicam perfidiam". It's among the many solemn
                        collects
                        > for Good Friday, which are separated by: "Oremus. Flectamus genua".

                        If I recall correctly (my 1962 missal is on the other side of the
                        Atlantic, so I can't consult with it), the 1962 missal, which is what
                        is approved for use, omits the word "perfidis" as a description of
                        the Jewish people. This was done at the direction of John XXIII.

                        Feel free to correct me if I've got this wrong.

                        F Bauerschmidt
                      • cantor03@aol.com
                        F. Bauerschmidt remembered the 1962 RC Missal- And he remembered correctly. The offensive solemn collect for Good Friday that prays for the conversion of the
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 29, 2002
                          F. Bauerschmidt remembered the 1962 RC Missal-

                          And he remembered correctly. The offensive solemn collect for Good Friday
                          that prays for the conversion of the "faithless Jews" was modified in 1962, as
                          it is today in the Novus Ordo Rite.

                          The problem is that the Latin Worship aids for Tridentine parishes are
                          prepared for
                          the dominant "Indult Tridentine Rite" Masses authorized by the local
                          Ordinaries.
                          They are not bound in the manner of the Fraternity of Saint Peter to the
                          1962, and
                          tend to use earlier missals. There are also a lot more old missals out there
                          from
                          earlier days, used by the Tridentine faithful, including those at Fraternity
                          parishes and which contain the older offensive collect.

                          Thus, the local Fraternity parish on Good Friday unfortunately uses the older
                          collects.

                          "Faithless Jews it was".

                          David Strang.
                        • Theodore R. Lorah, Jr.
                          I have been away a few days, so I missed this thread until now. My apologies. The book you might wish to read is a short one, and it is a dialogue between
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 1, 2002
                            I have been away a few days, so I missed this thread until now. My apologies.
                            The book you might wish to read is a short one, and it is a dialogue between
                            Pinchas Lapide, an Orthodox Rabbi, and Jurgen Moltmann, a Lutheran theologian.
                            It is entitled "Jewish Monotheism and Christian Trinitarian Doctrine." it
                            really places this is in a fresher context. There is also a book by Krister
                            Stendahl entitled "Paul Among Jews and Gentiles", which is also enlightening.
                            I must also add a short story. I was at a Holocaust conference and was having
                            a conversation with aRabbiu marc Tannenbaum, since deceased, who was prominent
                            in these circles, and a young conservative-evangelical man came running up
                            telling him how horrible it was that Jews were tied to "works of the law." His
                            response, "It is not obligation but the joy of serving our Lord to do works of
                            the Law."

                            Ted Lorah

                            "M. Thannisch" wrote:

                            > I seem to have steppped on some toes. Believe me, no-one respects the
                            > Jewish people more than I. My family had a Seder last night and this
                            > morning we celebrated Pesach with an Orthodox Jewish Congregation. God
                            > willing, Saturday, we will celebrate with a Messianic Jewish Congregation.
                            >
                            > Now I know this is not liturgy, and I apologise to the moderators, but just
                            > as I understand Jesus Christ better by understanding His Jewishness, so will
                            > the Jews find new meaning in their liturgies (and their Seder, which screams
                            > Jesus). I do believe they are God's chosen people, and admire them. Since
                            > I admire them, I want them to be all they can by being all they can in our
                            > and their Messiah, Yeshua.
                            >
                            > Shalom in Yeshua ha Moshiach
                            >
                            > Michael Joe Thannisch
                            > mjthan@...
                            >
                            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.