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Re: [liturgy-l] Holy Innocents

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  • Nathan Nettleton
    ... I don t agree that the problem is primarily about our distance from the scriptures. I think the problem is more with our misguided attempts to keep
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 30, 2001
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      asteresplanetai wrote:
      >
      > I suppose the church can do what it wants with its antiphons, but we
      > should all recognize that the line did not originate with the
      > Antiphonale, but with the Revelation of St. John (14.4).
      >
      > There, of course, virginity is prophetic-- it represents the
      > non-intercourse of the saints with the idols of this world. Certainly
      > that's true of the Holy Innocents.
      >
      > We can't change the scriptures, and I don't think we should be ashamed
      > of the parts that offend our carnal sensibilities, either. As Raymond
      > Brown was fond of saying, those are the parts we should especially
      > reflect on.
      >
      > It seems to me that the problem isn't with the phrase, which is
      > perfectly good hebrew poetry-- so much as with our distance from the
      > scriptures-- we no longer get the point when they're read, but hear
      > only the echoes of our own concerns.

      I don't agree that the problem is primarily about our distance from the
      scriptures. I think the problem is more with our misguided attempts to
      keep language static. If the way people normally use words like "virgin"
      has changed to such an extent that it can no longer adequately convey
      the meaning we want it convey, then we have to use a new word. The
      translation of our texts must surely remain an ongoing process for the
      languages in which we preach and pray continue to evolve. Unless we are
      going to use all out texts in their original language, the task of
      translating them is never closed.

      There may be a problem of our distance from scripture too, but that
      problem is only going to be exacerbated by our resistance to
      re-translation. It would be an increasingly small sector of the world
      that will ever again think that "defiled with women" is a metaphor for
      idolatry that is worth maintaining, and any attempts to maintain such
      metaphors will only further convince people that our scriptures and
      liturgy are not likely to promote a healthy reverence for human persons
      as God's image-bearers.

      Peace and hope,

      Nathan

      ______________________________________
      Nathan Nettleton
      Pastor, South Yarra Community Baptist Church
      Melbourne, Australia
      mailto:nathan@...
      ______________________________________
    • Steve Benner
      At 11:45 AM 12/28/01 -0500, John Dornheim wrote: Scott R Knitter wrote: I found Canon Douglas Monastic Diurnal Noted and Lauds Noted on eBay and
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 1, 2002
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        At 11:45 AM 12/28/01 -0500, John Dornheim wrote:
        >Scott R Knitter wrote:
        >
        > > I found Canon Douglas' "Monastic Diurnal Noted" and "Lauds Noted" on
        > eBay and was fortunate to "win" the auction on each; eBay is a good place
        > to check from time to time. It's amazing what pops up. I also obtained
        > the looseleaf chant supplement to the "Monastic Diurnal Revised"; the
        > supplement provides music for antiphons, hymns, and responsories for
        > which music is not provided in the MDR itself. However, in all cases,
        > the community says, not sings, Matins/Lauds these days. They chant
        > Terce, Sext, Vespers, and Compline.
        >
        >Do you search by title or by a subject? If the latter, which? I often look
        >for prayerbooks.

        I regularly do the following searches on eBay "hymn*" (titles only),
        liturg*, breviar*, anglican* and "episcopal* -methodist*" (all searching
        descriptions as well).

        Attempts to search for "prayer book" tend to pull up too much junk unless I
        otherwise qualify it.

        As my checkbook shows, I spend more than enough on eBay stuff...



        Steve Benner
        steve@...
        Oremus -- Daily Prayer, Liturgical Resources, Online Hymnal since 1993
        http://www.oremus.org


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      • rwhite84@neo.rr.com
        Somewhere back the line, someone opined that calling the Holy Innocent martys in fact but not in will sounded like Anglican Midrash. Perhaps it is my
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 28, 2010
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          Somewhere back the line, someone opined that calling the Holy Innocent "martys in fact but not in will" sounded like "Anglican Midrash." Perhaps it is my current location in an Episcopalian parish on Md's Eastern Shore that sensitizes me to such things,here's todays offering from Keiferbios:

          THE HOLY INNOCENTS (28 DEC NT)

          We read in Matthew 2 that when Jesus was born in Bethlehem, King
          Herod, fearing for his throne, ordered that all the male infants of
          Bethlehem be killed. These children are regarded as martyrs for the
          Gospel -- "martyrs in fact though not in will." Augustine called
          them "buds, killed by the frost of persecution the moment they
          showed themselves." For a discussion of the historical background of
          the episode, visit:

          http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/christia/old_library/infancy2.html

          (NOTE: Ignore what the file says about the ASSUMPTION OF MOSES. I
          hope to update it soon.)


          PRAYER (traditional language)
          We remember this day, O God, the slaughter of the holy
          innocents of Bethlehem by the order of King Herod. Receive, we
          beseech thee, into the arms of thy mercy all innocent victims;
          and by thy great might frustrate the designs of evil tyrants
          and establish thy rule of justice, love, and peace; through
          Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and
          the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.

          PRAYER (contemporary language)
          We remember today, O God, the slaughter of the holy innocents
          of Bethlehem by King Herod. Receive, we pray, into the arms of
          your mercy all innocent victims; and by your great might
          frustrate the designs of evil tyrants and establish your rule
          of justice, love, and peace; through Jesus Christ our Lord,
          who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God,
          for ever and ever.

          Psalm 124
          Jeremiah 31:15-17
          Revelation 21:1-7
          Matthew 2:13-18 (Inc)

          --
          Bob White
        • Ron Miller
          Then, of course, there s the 1662 Collect, continued in use through 1928 which read The Collect. O ALMIGHTY God, who out of the mouths of babes and sucklings
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 28, 2010
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            Then, of course, there's the 1662 Collect, continued in use through 1928
            which read
            The Collect.
            O ALMIGHTY God, who out of the mouths of babes and sucklings hast
            ordained strength, and madest infants to glorify thee by their deaths;
            Mortify and kill all vices in us, and so strengthen us by thy grace,
            that by the innocency of our lives, and constancy of our faith even unto
            death, we may glorify thy holy Name; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

            The 1979 revisers thought the older version a bit too blood-thirsty in
            making infants to glorify God by their death fwiw

            On 12/28/2010 11:25 AM, rwhite84@... wrote:
            > Somewhere back the line, someone opined that calling the Holy Innocent "martys in fact but not in will" sounded like "Anglican Midrash." Perhaps it is my current location in an Episcopalian parish on Md's Eastern Shore that sensitizes me to such things,here's todays offering from Keiferbios:
            >
            > THE HOLY INNOCENTS (28 DEC NT)
            >
            > We read in Matthew 2 that when Jesus was born in Bethlehem, King
            > Herod, fearing for his throne, ordered that all the male infants of
            > Bethlehem be killed. These children are regarded as martyrs for the
            > Gospel -- "martyrs in fact though not in will." Augustine called
            > them "buds, killed by the frost of persecution the moment they
            > showed themselves." For a discussion of the historical background of
            > the episode, visit:
            >
            > http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/christia/old_library/infancy2.html
            >
            > (NOTE: Ignore what the file says about the ASSUMPTION OF MOSES. I
            > hope to update it soon.)
            >
            >
            > PRAYER (traditional language)
            > We remember this day, O God, the slaughter of the holy
            > innocents of Bethlehem by the order of King Herod. Receive, we
            > beseech thee, into the arms of thy mercy all innocent victims;
            > and by thy great might frustrate the designs of evil tyrants
            > and establish thy rule of justice, love, and peace; through
            > Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and
            > the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.
            >
            > PRAYER (contemporary language)
            > We remember today, O God, the slaughter of the holy innocents
            > of Bethlehem by King Herod. Receive, we pray, into the arms of
            > your mercy all innocent victims; and by your great might
            > frustrate the designs of evil tyrants and establish your rule
            > of justice, love, and peace; through Jesus Christ our Lord,
            > who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God,
            > for ever and ever.
            >
            > Psalm 124
            > Jeremiah 31:15-17
            > Revelation 21:1-7
            > Matthew 2:13-18 (Inc)
            >
            > --
            > Bob White
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
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            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Ron Miller (The Rev. Ronald H.) Baltimore, MD
            The humorist Erma Bombeck had a most appropriate word for us. She said, "When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I have not a single bit of talent left and can say, 'I used everything You gave me.'"



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