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re-collecting the presider...

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  • harhare@aol.com
    During the days in the early 60 s when I attended Redeemer in Ft Wayne, Herb Lindemann often/if not always had the congregation pray the collect in unison.
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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      During the days in the early 60's when I attended Redeemer in Ft Wayne, Herb
      Lindemann often/if not always had the congregation pray the collect in
      unison. Now we did have an assistant also and it may have been his idea,
      but... and this was certainly pre CWs by 6 to 8 years I think... hmmm....
      Harvey Mozolak

      Frank you said:


      > There was never any intentional rubric to have the congregation pray the
      > collect for the day in unison in any Lutheran book, not even CW-2. The
      > aberration in CW-2 was that the prayer of the day was assigned to the
      > assisting minister. But what happened is that the 1970s was when Augsburg
      > and Fortress began publishing Sunday lectionary inserts which included the
      > prayer of the day as well as intercessions, and ignorant pastors just
      > started
      > having the people recite the prayer of the day together. There are unison
      > prayers in the LBW and BCP. In the LBW the congregation prays the
      > offertory
      > prayer but an assisting minister prays the post-communion prayer. In the
      > BCP
      > the celebrant prays the offertory prayer (when there is one) and the people
      >
      > pray together the post-communion prayer.
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • fcsenn@aol.com
      In a message dated 11/1/2001 6:23:34 AM Central Standard Time, ... Herb Lindemann was in the avante garde of the Lutheran liturgical renewal movement. I don t
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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        In a message dated 11/1/2001 6:23:34 AM Central Standard Time,
        harhare@... writes:


        >
        > During the days in the early 60's when I attended Redeemer in Ft Wayne,
        > Herb
        > Lindemann often/if not always had the congregation pray the collect in
        > unison.

        Herb Lindemann was in the avante garde of the Lutheran liturgical renewal
        movement. I don't deny that there were those who experimented with different
        things in that age of experimental liturgies. But praying the collect in
        unison became more widespread only during the 70s.

        Incidentally, there was a time a few centuries ago when the congregation
        didn't pray the prayer of confession in unison because they didn't have the
        text in their hands. The Swedish Church Order, for example, says that the
        Confiteor was prayed "over the people."

        FCSenn


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Cody Unterseher
        ... Would that have been prayed as an audible oration, or a private prayer of the presiding minister? If it was audible, it is nonetheless an improvement over
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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          FCSenn wrote:

          > The Swedish Church Order, for example, says that the
          > Confiteor was prayed "over the people."


          Would that have been prayed as an audible oration, or a private
          prayer of the presiding minister? If it was audible, it is
          nonetheless an improvement over the Tridentine of not-so-blessed
          memory.


          Happy feast day to all!

          Cody Unterseher
        • WRVinovskis@cs.com
          Someone wrote: . . . when Augsburg and Fortress began publishing Sunday lectionary inserts which ... Let s hear it for printed lectionary inserts. In addition
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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            Someone wrote:

            . . . when Augsburg and Fortress began publishing Sunday lectionary inserts
            which
            > included the prayer of the day as well as intercessions, and ignorant
            > pastors just
            > > started having the people recite the prayer of the day together.
            > >
            >
            >

            Let's hear it for printed lectionary inserts. In addition to the unison
            praying of the collect, the congregation at which I interned had, somewhere
            along the way, picked up the practice of a unison reading of the Holy Gospel
            (in the KJV, no less!). Each week the experience of the Gospel reading was
            similar to glossalalia.

            Does anyone know from where this practice arises? Is this another
            manifestation of the idea that "everyone is a minister," which was
            popularized in the LCMS in the early '70's (Which I assume, had its roots in
            Vatican II and the focus on the ministry of the laity in the RC church.)?

            God's Peace,

            Wally Vinovskis
            Concordia Lutheran Church
            Macungie, PA


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James O'Regan
            ... Novalis, Canada s largest religious publisher, prints a weekly mass thingy every month or so, so-called Living with Christ. In it can be found the entire
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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              Wally wrote and I snipped a lot:

              > Does anyone know from where this practice arises?

              Novalis, Canada's largest religious publisher, prints a weekly mass
              thingy every month or so, so-called "Living with Christ." In it can
              be found the entire goods, including readings. While this has not
              caused a common gospel reading phenomenon, it has caused a "Reading
              with Christ" phenomenon whereby poor old pew huggers glue their heads
              to the page and ignore the sacred action.

              Ironically enough, Novalis had once seen itself charged with enacting
              the renewal. Reading with Christ (sic) is its big money earner,
              subsidizing other stuff they do. And so, while it is single handedly
              destroying good liturgy, the greedy things are loath to give it up
              or, as was once suggested to them (no names, eh), to re-design it to
              include only responses by the assembly: no readings especially.

              Nevertheless, because most lectors, deacons and presiders are so
              poorly trained in proclamation as to render the word of God
              incomprehensible, some might well argue that at least by "reading"
              along, the assembly gets to hear the word. But, of course, it ain't
              so: reading and listening are two totally different experiences: one
              is liturgical, the other not. Liturgy isn't all information flow,
              after all.


              James O'Regan
              http://www.jamesoregan.com
              tel 613-824-4706
            • Christian McConnell
              ... While it may be somewhat ironic I suppose, it s pretty typical. Hand missals, the forerunners of missalettes, were heavily promoted (even invented?) by
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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                --- James O'Regan <oregan@...> wrote:

                > Ironically enough, Novalis had once seen itself
                > charged with enacting
                > the renewal.

                While it may be somewhat ironic I suppose, it's pretty
                typical. Hand missals, the forerunners of
                missalettes, were heavily promoted (even invented?) by
                the Liturgical Movement, back in pre-vernacular days.

                Chris McConnell



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              • James O'Regan
                ... Yes, that is interesting. One can argue reasonably that pre- vernacular information flow was a discrete act from the then sacred action, which was all
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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                  Chris wrote and I snipped:

                  > Hand missals, the forerunners of
                  > missalettes, were heavily promoted (even invented?) by
                  > the Liturgical Movement, back in pre-vernacular days.

                  Yes, that is interesting. One can argue reasonably that pre-
                  vernacular information flow was a discrete act from the then sacred
                  action, which was all secret and incomprehensible anyway. So, that by
                  providing "meaning," one was attempting to promote the assembly by
                  informed passive participation.

                  But once the official vernacular texts were published, despite
                  liturgical documents that claim the revisd rites were only the
                  beginning of renewal, not a cent has been spent on training to enact
                  the rites. The only dough put out is to buy copies of texts. Hmmmm.


                  James O'Regan
                  http://www.jamesoregan.com
                  tel 613-824-4706
                • fcsenn@aol.com
                  In a message dated 11/1/2001 9:05:17 AM Central Standard Time, ... Public---in Swedish--- over the people . The priest also prayed the Latin Confiteor
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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                    In a message dated 11/1/2001 9:05:17 AM Central Standard Time,
                    oblate21@... writes:


                    >
                    > Would that have been prayed as an audible oration, or a private
                    > prayer of the presiding minister? If it was audible, it is
                    > nonetheless an improvement over the Tridentine of not-so-blessed
                    > memory.
                    >

                    Public---in Swedish---"over the people". The priest also prayed the Latin
                    Confiteor privately.

                    FCSenn


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • WRVinovskis@cs.com
                    In a message dated 11/1/2001 12:02:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... I knew I could count on somebody to come through on this. Thanks, James! Wally [Non-text
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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                      In a message dated 11/1/2001 12:02:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                      oregan@... writes:

                      > Wally wrote and I snipped a lot:
                      >
                      > > Does anyone know from where this practice arises?
                      >
                      > .


                      I knew I could count on somebody to come through on this. Thanks, James!

                      Wally



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Avril Baigent
                      I ve been to a few RC parishes here in England where everyone reads the responsorial psalm together . . . Let s just all sing it! Avril ... From:
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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                        I've been to a few RC parishes here in England where everyone reads the
                        responsorial psalm together . . . Let's just all sing it!
                        Avril

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: WRVinovskis@... [mailto:WRVinovskis@...]
                        Sent: 01 November 2001 16:18
                        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] re-collecting the presider...


                        Someone wrote:

                        . . . when Augsburg and Fortress began publishing Sunday lectionary inserts
                        which
                        > included the prayer of the day as well as intercessions, and ignorant
                        > pastors just
                        > > started having the people recite the prayer of the day together.
                        > >
                        >
                        >

                        Let's hear it for printed lectionary inserts. In addition to the unison
                        praying of the collect, the congregation at which I interned had, somewhere
                        along the way, picked up the practice of a unison reading of the Holy Gospel

                        (in the KJV, no less!). Each week the experience of the Gospel reading was
                        similar to glossalalia.

                        Does anyone know from where this practice arises? Is this another
                        manifestation of the idea that "everyone is a minister," which was
                        popularized in the LCMS in the early '70's (Which I assume, had its roots
                        in
                        Vatican II and the focus on the ministry of the laity in the RC church.)?

                        God's Peace,

                        Wally Vinovskis
                        Concordia Lutheran Church
                        Macungie, PA


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                      • M. Thannisch
                        I ve often thought we should get rid of the inserts wiht lessons and jimporve the reading. It is so true that hearing the word will bring things to light that
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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                          I've often thought we should get rid of the inserts wiht lessons and
                          jimporve the reading. It is so true that hearing the word will bring things
                          to light that you may have missed in reading it.

                          Shalom in Yeshua ha Moshiach

                          Michael Joe Thannisch
                          mjthan@...
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "James O'Regan" <oregan@...>
                          To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 10:49 AM
                          Subject: [liturgy-l] Printed Inserts [was re-collecting the presider...]


                          > Wally wrote and I snipped a lot:
                          >
                          > > Does anyone know from where this practice arises?
                          >
                          > Novalis, Canada's largest religious publisher, prints a weekly mass
                          > thingy every month or so, so-called "Living with Christ." In it can
                          > be found the entire goods, including readings. While this has not
                          > caused a common gospel reading phenomenon, it has caused a "Reading
                          > with Christ" phenomenon whereby poor old pew huggers glue their heads
                          > to the page and ignore the sacred action.
                          >
                          > Ironically enough, Novalis had once seen itself charged with enacting
                          > the renewal. Reading with Christ (sic) is its big money earner,
                          > subsidizing other stuff they do. And so, while it is single handedly
                          > destroying good liturgy, the greedy things are loath to give it up
                          > or, as was once suggested to them (no names, eh), to re-design it to
                          > include only responses by the assembly: no readings especially.
                          >
                          > Nevertheless, because most lectors, deacons and presiders are so
                          > poorly trained in proclamation as to render the word of God
                          > incomprehensible, some might well argue that at least by "reading"
                          > along, the assembly gets to hear the word. But, of course, it ain't
                          > so: reading and listening are two totally different experiences: one
                          > is liturgical, the other not. Liturgy isn't all information flow,
                          > after all.
                          >
                          >
                          > James O'Regan
                          > http://www.jamesoregan.com
                          > tel 613-824-4706
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                          > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • CyrilNovaJ@cs.com
                          In a message dated 11/1/01 9:42:44 PM US Eastern Standard Time, ... Having come from evangelicalism into the Lutheran church, I noticed immediately and with
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 2, 2001
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                            In a message dated 11/1/01 9:42:44 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
                            mjthan@... writes:


                            > I've often thought we should get rid of the inserts wiht lessons and
                            > jimporve the reading. It is so true that hearing the word will bring things
                            > to light that you may have missed in reading it.
                            >

                            Having come from evangelicalism into the Lutheran church, I noticed
                            immediately and with nearly universal corroboration, that Lutherans do not
                            bring their Bibles to worship. I found this almost universal among churches
                            associated with evangelicalism.

                            Once a worship committee questioned my assertion that we delete the worship
                            inserts, with the rejoinder that the people are "literary" and needed to have
                            the text in front of them. The idea of bringing one's Bible to worship in
                            order to have the text before them was a completely alien concept.

                            I suppose that the proliferation of translations has had some influence here,
                            for at least a uniformity of some sort is offered by the insert.

                            Show them the expense involved! My last congregation was spending something
                            approaching $500/year on Augsburg/Fortress bulletin covers and Celebrate
                            inserts. We started producing our own, using a book of reproducible images
                            for the cover. The expense were reduced to paper and toner used.

                            David L. Rogers, STS
                            Indianapolis, IN
                            CyrilNovaJ@...


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John Dornheim
                            None of my congregations have had pew bibles although we have always printed the lessons and the prayers. I do so with the hope that they would be referenced
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 2, 2001
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                              None of my congregations have had pew bibles although we have always
                              printed the lessons and the prayers. I do so with the hope that they
                              would be referenced during the week but wonder how true that was. When
                              we come to worship, the word needs to be proclaimed and heard. We need
                              not read along.

                              peace+
                              John Dornheim
                            • fcsenn@aol.com
                              In a message dated 11/2/2001 12:35:08 PM Central Standard Time, ... People might bring their Bibles to a Bible-study class. But the best thing in worship is
                              Message 14 of 15 , Nov 2, 2001
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                                In a message dated 11/2/2001 12:35:08 PM Central Standard Time,
                                CyrilNovaJ@... writes:


                                > Having come from evangelicalism into the Lutheran church, I noticed
                                > immediately and with nearly universal corroboration, that Lutherans do not
                                > bring their Bibles to worship. I found this almost universal among churches
                                > associated with evangelicalism.
                                >
                                > Once a worship committee questioned my assertion that we delete the worship
                                > inserts, with the rejoinder that the people are "literary" and needed to
                                > have
                                > the text in front of them. The idea of bringing one's Bible to worship in
                                > order to have the text before them was a completely alien concept.
                                >

                                People might bring their Bibles to a Bible-study class. But the best thing
                                in worship is to have readers who can read well and for the people to listen.
                                I have it on good authority that faith comes from what is heard, not from
                                what is read.

                                FCSenn


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • John Dornheim
                                There are times when my expereinces are not helpful as my congregations have not been shining examples of worship practice. I do, however, find interesting in
                                Message 15 of 15 , Nov 2, 2001
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                                  There are times when my expereinces are not helpful as my congregations
                                  have not been shining examples of worship practice. I do, however, find
                                  interesting in our This Far By Faith hymnal (for the African American
                                  community) the prayers for illumination for the lectors. I think that it
                                  helps the congregation to focus in on the word which is being
                                  proclaimed.
                                  OTOH, yesterday at mass for All Saints Day, the lector "took" the
                                  reading from Ephesians but, as best I can tell, never put it back!

                                  peace+
                                  John Dornheim
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