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Re: [liturgy-l] Three year lectionary

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  • D
    Please can you give us a quick summary of Jungmann s comments? Not all of us can run to a convenient theological library to look up a reference (unless 3.5
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 5, 2001
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      Please can you give us a quick summary of Jungmann's comments?
      Not all of us can run to a convenient theological library to look
      up a reference (unless 3.5 hours one way is convenient <GRIN>).
      Are his conclusions similar to Norm Bonneau in "The Sunday
      Lectionary - Ritual Word, Paschal Shape" as referenced by James?

      Thanks.

      Doug

      *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

      On 9/5/2001 at 4:21 PM Douglas Cowling wrote:

      >on 9/5/01 3:34 PM, Kenneth Doll at kenneth.doll@... wrote:
      >
      >> Do you have any source for your claim above that the three
      year
      >> lectionary is an ancient use? Every ancient lectionary that I
      >> have seen is a one year lectionary.
      >>
      >> Kenneth Doll
      >
      >Josef Jungmann gives a brief overview of ancient lectionaries in
      "The Mass"
      >an Historical, Theological and Pastoral Survey" (Collegeville:
      The
      >Litrugical Press). The book is a good commentary on the Novus
      Ordo.
      >
      >
      >Doug Cowling
      >____________________________________________________________
      >Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
      >Church of the Messiah
      >Toronto
      >
      >
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    • Douglas Cowling
      ... James Reagan s posting encapsulates the history. The key element is that there is great diversity in various traditions with 4 or 5 readings in some
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 5, 2001
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        on 9/5/01 6:26 PM, D at thurifer@... wrote:

        > Please can you give us a quick summary of Jungmann's comments?
        > Not all of us can run to a convenient theological library to look
        > up a reference (unless 3.5 hours one way is convenient <GRIN>).
        > Are his conclusions similar to Norm Bonneau in "The Sunday
        > Lectionary - Ritual Word, Paschal Shape" as referenced by James?
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
        > Doug

        James Reagan's posting encapsulates the history. The key element is that
        there is great diversity in various traditions with 4 or 5 readings in some
        churches, and even non-scriptural readings at the eucharist (saint's Passios
        in Milan). Uniformity has never been traditional.

        A good background book for the pluralism of "churches" in the Apostolic
        period is Raymond Brown's "The Churches the Apostles Left Behind". I
        ground-breaking book which is very readable by a general audience. I've
        seen it work extremely well in adult education courses. Brown's scholarship
        is always impeccable, and his faith is quite compelling.

        Doug Cowling
        ____________________________________________________________
        Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
        Church of the Messiah
        Toronto
      • M. Thannisch
        ... some ... Passios ... The Coptic church using (I think) the Liturgy of St. James still uses five readings. Shalom in Yeshua ha Moshiach Michael Joe
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 5, 2001
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          >
          > James Reagan's posting encapsulates the history. The key element is that
          > there is great diversity in various traditions with 4 or 5 readings in
          some
          > churches, and even non-scriptural readings at the eucharist (saint's
          Passios
          > in Milan). Uniformity has never been traditional.
          >
          The Coptic church using (I think) the Liturgy of St. James still uses five
          readings.

          Shalom in Yeshua ha Moshiach

          Michael Joe Thannisch
          mjthan@...
        • Kenneth Doll
          ... ISBN:0-8146-2457-X, ... James, Thank you for this information. Could you elaborate on what you mean by a sharp turnaround ? And also, does a lectio
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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            --- In liturgy-l@y..., "James O'Regan" <oregan@j...> wrote:
            >
            > The church in Milan 4th century; Spain and Gaul late 4th century;
            > Rome until fifth century; Byzantine Church until 7th century; also
            > ancient Palestinian lectionary cycle of Torah.
            >
            > See Norm Bonneau's "The Sunday Lectionary - Ritual Word, Paschal
            > Shape", The Liturical Press, Colleggeville, 1998,
            ISBN:0-8146-2457-X,
            > p. 36
            >
            > If Norm is correct, one can presume that Mozarabic use had a sharp
            > turnaround in 12th century and Gaul before that. I had a very quick
            > look through Vogel and didn't see anything pertinent, although he
            > does give examples of lectio continua in a Mozarabic book.

            James,
            Thank you for this information. Could you elaborate on what you
            mean by a "sharp turnaround"? And also, does a "lectio continua"
            necessarily imply a three year lectionary? The 1549 and later
            English BCP use something very close to a lectio continua for the
            offices but it is only a one year cycle.

            Also, for the others that responded and mentioned a variety of
            practices where 3, 4, 5, or more lessons were read, I certainly
            have seen this, but this is really a separate issue to the three
            year lectionary, isn't it?

            Thanks,
            Kenneth Doll
          • James O'Regan
            ... Then sharp turnaround would have been when Rome pounced on Spain forbidding Mozarabic use except in Toledo and, I think, one other church, sometime in the
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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              Kenneth Doll wrote and I snipped:

              > Could you elaborate on what you
              > mean by a "sharp turnaround"?

              Then sharp turnaround would have been when Rome pounced on Spain
              forbidding Mozarabic use except in Toledo and, I think, one other
              church, sometime in the late 1100's, if I recall correctly..

              And also, does a "lectio continua"
              > necessarily imply a three year lectionary?

              Nothing necessarily implies a three year lectionary and neither was
              I. A lectio continua may be sufficient for such an implication.
              Nevertheless, given the number of non festive Sundays, if one has a
              substantial lectio continua without a three year cycle then one has a
              one year cycle based on one "synoptic" gospel only. Rather paucitic
              and them Mozarabes were hardly that. They had buckets of flourish so
              if one sees a lectio continua in a Mozarabic context, it's a good
              place to start looking for the other two (or more) years. There is
              sufficient implication for a search.



              James O'Regan
              http://www.jamesoregan.com
              tel 613-824-4706
            • Kenneth Doll
              ... a ... Would a lectio continua be restricted to Sundays? If used even on Saturdays as well, this would double the readings, and if other days, this would
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                --- In liturgy-l@y..., "James O'Regan" <oregan@j...> wrote:

                > Nothing necessarily implies a three year lectionary and neither was
                > I. A lectio continua may be sufficient for such an implication.
                > Nevertheless, given the number of non festive Sundays, if one has a
                > substantial lectio continua without a three year cycle then one has
                a
                > one year cycle based on one "synoptic" gospel only. Rather paucitic
                > and them Mozarabes were hardly that. They had buckets of flourish so
                > if one sees a lectio continua in a Mozarabic context, it's a good
                > place to start looking for the other two (or more) years. There is
                > sufficient implication for a search.

                Would a lectio continua be restricted to Sundays? If used even on
                Saturdays as well, this would double the readings, and if other days,
                this would add up. (the Jerusalem typikon that the Orthodox use
                has an almost lectio continua for the weekdays that exhausts all the
                gospel and apostolic reading in one year)

                It is kind of ironic, though, that perhaps the Romans eliminated a
                multi-year cycle from the Mozarabic (sp?) rite, only to initiate
                the three year cycle themselves centuries later.

                Kenneth Doll
              • Jan J.H.Hofland
                Hi all, A lectio continua , a continuous reading was advocated by John Calvin (of all people!) for Protestant churches as a good method of reading an
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                  Hi all,

                  A 'lectio continua', a 'continuous reading' was advocated by John Calvin
                  (of all people!) for Protestant churches as a good method of reading an
                  entire Bible book, for instance, a chapter per Sunday. His reason was that
                  illiterate people (and there were a lot of those in the 17th century) would
                  eventually hear the entire Bible being read in church.

                  This practice did not last long in the Calvinistic branch of protestantism.
                  Interestingly enough, the 'Ecumenical Lectionary' now used by all mainstream
                  churches in The Netherlands, re-introduced this principle. This time not
                  because many people are illiterate but (I suppose) because many people are
                  not exactly avid readers of the Bible ;-). This month we're reading from
                  Colosians. As ministers, we're not expected to preach on this reading or
                  even expected to link this reading to the other readings.

                  My question is, what are the real historical roots for this reading?

                  Jan J.H.Hofland
                  jjh.hofland@...
                • fcsenn@aol.com
                  In a message dated 9/6/2001 4:30:45 PM Central Daylight Time, ... No. The daily lectionary in the LBW and the BCP follows the lectio continua principle.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                    In a message dated 9/6/2001 4:30:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
                    kenneth.doll@... writes:


                    > Would a lectio continua be restricted to Sundays?

                    No. The daily lectionary in the LBW and the BCP follows the lectio continua
                    principle.

                    FCSenn


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • fcsenn@aol.com
                    In a message dated 9/6/2001 4:58:38 PM Central Daylight Time, ... You express surprise that John Calvin would advocate a lectio continua. The principle was
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                      In a message dated 9/6/2001 4:58:38 PM Central Daylight Time,
                      jjh.hofland@... writes:


                      >
                      > A 'lectio continua', a 'continuous reading' was advocated by John Calvin
                      > (of all people!) for Protestant churches as a good method of reading an
                      > entire Bible book, for instance, a chapter per Sunday. His reason was that
                      > illiterate people (and there were a lot of those in the 17th century) would
                      > eventually hear the entire Bible being read in church.
                      >

                      You express surprise that John Calvin would advocate a lectio continua. The
                      principle was already established in Reformed Churches before Calvin. The
                      reformers preferred lectio continua. The Lutherans held out for the historic
                      pericope system, but only at the Sunday Eucharist.

                      FCSenn


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Maureen Lahiff
                      please add to your list of daily lectio continua the 2 year RC weekday cycle. Ok, so it s pretty complete for the gospel and not for the 1st reading, but the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                        please add to your list of daily lectio continua the 2 year RC weekday cycle.

                        Ok, so it's pretty complete for the gospel and not for the 1st reading,
                        but the 1st readings attempt to cover the major non-gospel books, albeit
                        with skips.

                        also, I can't remember if anyone has pointed out that the 4th gospel is the
                        last 3 weeks of Lent and the Sundays and weeksdays of the Easter Season in
                        the RC lectionary.
                      • Jan J.H.Hofland
                        ... Calvinist churches traditionally did not use a lectionary, that is to say a pericope system. They followed the line set out by Zwingli, Bullinger, Bucer
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 7, 2001
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                          Frank Senn wrote:

                          > You express surprise that John Calvin would advocate a lectio continua.

                          Calvinist churches traditionally did not use a lectionary, that is to say a
                          pericope system. They followed the line set out by Zwingli, Bullinger, Bucer
                          and Calvin, who chose for a lectio continua beside a free-choice reading by
                          the preacher. According to Calvin, the pericope system(s) known to him did
                          not reflect expert biblical knowledge, tended to make preachers lazy and
                          fattened the purses of the writers of printed pericope sermons.

                          My surprise is that the above mentioned chose for a system at all, be it a
                          lectio continua. Before long, this was replaced by the use of the
                          Heidelberg Catechism as the basis for a teaching service in the afternoon or
                          evening.

                          Jan J.H.Hofland
                          jjh.hofland@...
                        • TAPoelker@aol.com
                          In a message dated 9/5/2001 3:46:37 PM Central Daylight Time, ... I thought Jungman died long before the Novus Ordo was published. Tom Poelker St. Louis MO
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 12, 2001
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                            In a message dated 9/5/2001 3:46:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
                            dcowling@... writes:


                            > Josef Jungmann gives a brief overview of ancient lectionaries in "The Mass"
                            > an Historical, Theological and Pastoral Survey" (Collegeville: The
                            > Litrugical Press). The book is a good commentary on the Novus Ordo

                            I thought Jungman died long before the Novus Ordo was published.

                            Tom Poelker
                            St. Louis MO USA



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Douglas Cowling
                            ... Jungmann died in 1975 after a scholarly career which influenced the liturgical reforms of Vatican II. Life and bibliography below. Doug Cowling
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 12, 2001
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                              on 9/12/01 4:30 AM, TAPoelker@... at TAPoelker@... wrote:

                              > I thought Jungman died long before the Novus Ordo was published.
                              >
                              > Tom Poelker

                              Jungmann died in 1975 after a scholarly career which influenced the
                              liturgical reforms of Vatican II. Life and bibliography below.

                              Doug Cowling
                              ____________________________________________________________
                              Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
                              Church of the Messiah
                              Toronto


                              ****************************************************
                              JUNGMANN, Josef Andreas, katholischer Liturgiewissenschaftler und
                              Katechiker, * 16.11. 1889 in Taufers (Südtirol), + 26.1. 1975 in Innsbruck.
                              - J. studierte in Brixen, in Innsbruck, München und Wien; 1913
                              Priesterweihe; 1917 Eintritt in die Gesellschaft Jesu. J. dozierte seit 1925
                              in Innsbruck Pädagogik, Katechetik und Liturgik (1930 a. o.; 1934 o.
                              Professor; 1956 Versetzung in den Ruhestand, danach nur noch
                              liturgiewissenschaftliche Vorlesungen); 1926-1963 (mit Unterbrechungen)
                              Schriftleiter der ZKTh; seit 1940 in der Deutschen, seit 1945 in der
                              sterreichischen Liturgischen Kommission; Mitglied der
                              Vorbereitungskommission und Peritus der Liturgischen Kommission des
                              Vaticanum II. Seine christozentrisch orientierten Arbeiten förderten,
                              wenngleich sein »Die Frohbotschaft und unsere Glaubensverkündigung« 1936 vom
                              Buchmarkt zurückgezogen werden mußte, die Theorie der Katechetik,
                              insbesondere die material-kerygmatische Reformbewegung. Sich immer stärker
                              liturgischen Fragen zuwendend, faßte er mit seiner genetischen Erklärung der
                              Meßfeier »Missarum Sollemnia« die vorhandenen Forschungen zusammen und
                              rechtfertigte glänzend die Sicht der Kirche als Gemeinschaft der Gläubigen
                              in Christus und entsprechend auch die aktive Teilnahme des Volkes. Zusammen
                              mit anderen die Liturgik aus rubrizistischer Verengung herausführend, ist J.
                              einer der großen unmittelbaren Wegbereiter der Liturgiekonstitution des
                              Vaticanum II.

                              Werke: Die Stellung Christi im liturg. Gebet, 1925, 19622; Die lat. Bußriten
                              in ihrer geschichtl. Entwicklung, 1932; Die Frohbotschaft und unsere
                              Glaubensverkündigung, 1936; Christus als Mittelpunkt religiöser Erziehung,
                              1939; Die liturg. Feier. Grundsätzliches und Geschichtliches über
                              Formgesetze der Liturgie, 1939, 19613; Gewordene Liturgie. Studien und
                              Durchblicke, 1941; Die Eucharistie, 1947; Missarum Sollemnia. Eine
                              genetische Erklärung der röm. Messe, 2 Bde., 1948, 19625; Katechetik.
                              Aufgabe und Methode der religiösen Unterweisung, 1953, 19653; Das
                              Eucharistische Hochgebet. Grundgedanken des Canon Missae, 1954; Vom Sinn der
                              Messe als Opfer der Gemeinschaft, 1954; Der Gottesdienst der Kirche auf dem
                              Hintergrund seiner Geschichte kurz erl., 1955, 19623; The Early Liturgy to
                              the Time of Gregory the Great, 1959, dt.: Liturgie der christl. Frühzeit bis
                              auf Gregor den Großen, 1967; Sonntag und Sonntagsmesse. Sinn der
                              Sonntagsfeier, 1959, 19663; Symbolik der kath. Kirche (mit Anhang v. Ekkart
                              Sauser), 1960; Liturg. Erbe und pastorale Ggw. Studien und Vorträge, 1960;
                              Liturg. Erneuerung. Rückblick und Ausblick, 1962; Glaubensverkündigung im
                              Lichte der Frohbotschaft, 1963; Wortgottesdienst im Lichte von Theol. und
                              Gesch., 1965; Einleitung und Kommentar zur Konstitution über die heilige
                              Liturgie, in: LThKVat I, 10-109; Christl. Beten im Wandel und Bestand, 1969;
                              Erneuerte Meßliturgie. Gedanken und Hinweise zum Verständnis der
                              Liturgiereform, 1969; Messe im Gottesvolk. Ein nachkonziliarer Durchblick
                              durch Missarum Sollemnia, 1970. - J. A. J.-Bibliogr., in: Balthasar Fischer
                              - Hans Bernhard Meyer (Hrsg.), J. A. J. Ein Leben für Liturgie und Kerygma,
                              1975, 156-207.
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