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Re: [liturgy-l] The Gospel of John

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  • Simon Kershaw
    ... As an aside, the Joint Liturgical Group (on which the major denominations in the British Isles are represented) came up with a four-year scheme about 10
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 1, 2001
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      Krister Ulmanis wrote:

      > >I am reading John. Why does the church focus on the first three
      > >Gospels and not have a four-year cycle that includes an equal focus on John? I
      > >guess I don't like to see anyone's writing given what appears to be lesser
      > >importance.

      As an aside, the Joint Liturgical Group (on which the 'major'
      denominations in the British Isles are represented) came up with a
      four-year scheme about 10 years ago, or thereabouts. But this did not
      catch on, and most of the churches which had followed the JLG's
      early-1970s-ish 2-year scheme (which did not follow any particular
      gospel) have mostly abandoned it for the RCL. The four-year scheme was I
      believe, largely the work of the then United Reformed Church minister in
      this town, Donald McIlhagga, thoroughly revised by his fellow members of
      the JLG.

      --
      Simon Kershaw
      simon@...
      Cambridge, England
    • Theodore R. Lorah, Jr.
      The first three, the Synoptic Gospels, share Mark s structure with Luke and Matthew adding common material (Q) and their own material. Because Matthew and
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 1, 2001
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        The first three, the Synoptic Gospels, share Mark's structure with Luke and
        Matthew adding common material (Q) and their own material. Because Matthew and
        Luke share Mark's basic chronology, it is easy for them to fill in the same
        cycle. John is not ignored, however, in any year. John's Gospel is used for
        numbers of Sundays, especially during Lent. Everyone recognizes that John is
        unique, taking a different view structurally and in terms of literary usages, e.g.
        strongly symbolic language, misunderstanding as an indication of lack of faith,
        cf. ch. 3 "You are a teacher in Israel and yet do not understand?" This is the
        tack I would take.

        Ted Lorah

        Krister Ulmanis wrote:

        > Dear friends,
        > A parishioner sent me the following question. I don't have the answer. Do you?
        >
        > >I am reading John. Why does the church focus on the first three
        > >Gospels and not have a four-year cycle that includes an equal focus on John? I
        > >guess I don't like to see anyone's writing given what appears to be lesser
        > >importance.
        >
        > --
        > Krister Ulmanis
        > Zion Evangelical Lutheran Church
        > Sault Ste. Marie, ON
        >
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      • fcsenn@aol.com
        In a message dated 8/31/2001 5:24:53 PM Central Daylight Time, ... John gets its time in all three years at Christmas and Easter, during Lent of Year A, and
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 1, 2001
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          In a message dated 8/31/2001 5:24:53 PM Central Daylight Time,
          suskas@... writes:


          >
          > >I am reading John. Why does the church focus on the first three
          > >Gospels and not have a four-year cycle that includes an equal focus on
          > John? I
          > >guess I don't like to see anyone's writing given what appears to be lesser
          > >importance.
          >

          John gets its time in all three years at Christmas and Easter, during Lent of
          Year A, and actually shares Year B with Mark. Five Sundays in "ordinary
          time" during Year B are devoted to the Bread of Life discourse in John 6.

          FCSenn


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • fcsenn@aol.com
          In a message dated 9/1/2001 12:15:34 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Actually, the narrative features of the pericopes from John in Lent Year A are so dramatic
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 1, 2001
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            In a message dated 9/1/2001 12:15:34 AM Central Daylight Time,
            nathan@... writes:


            >
            > The less narrative structure and style of John makes it less suitable to
            > being treated the same way as the other three.

            Actually, the narrative features of the pericopes from John in Lent Year A
            are so dramatic that these Gospel pericopes can actually be read using
            dramatic dialogue. Think about them: Jesus and Nicodemus, the Woman at the
            Well, the healing ofthe man forn blind, the raising of Lazarus. Great stuff.

            FCSenn



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          • Kenneth Doll
            ... James, Do you have any source for your claim above that the three year lectionary is an ancient use? Every ancient lectionary that I have seen is a one
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 5, 2001
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              --- In liturgy-l@y..., "James O'Regan" <oregan@j...> wrote:
              > 3. three year cycle per se were an ancient use too, leaving the
              > fourth gospel the odd man out (sic).
              >
              > James O'Regan
              > http://www.jamesoregan.com
              > tel 613-824-4706

              James,
              Do you have any source for your claim above that the three year
              lectionary is an ancient use? Every ancient lectionary that I
              have seen is a one year lectionary.

              Kenneth Doll
            • Douglas Cowling
              ... Josef Jungmann gives a brief overview of ancient lectionaries in The Mass an Historical, Theological and Pastoral Survey (Collegeville: The Litrugical
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 5, 2001
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                on 9/5/01 3:34 PM, Kenneth Doll at kenneth.doll@... wrote:

                > Do you have any source for your claim above that the three year
                > lectionary is an ancient use? Every ancient lectionary that I
                > have seen is a one year lectionary.
                >
                > Kenneth Doll

                Josef Jungmann gives a brief overview of ancient lectionaries in "The Mass"
                an Historical, Theological and Pastoral Survey" (Collegeville: The
                Litrugical Press). The book is a good commentary on the Novus Ordo.


                Doug Cowling
                ____________________________________________________________
                Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
                Church of the Messiah
                Toronto
              • James O'Regan
                ... The church in Milan 4th century; Spain and Gaul late 4th century; Rome until fifth century; Byzantine Church until 7th century; also ancient Palestinian
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 5, 2001
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                  Kenneth Doll asked:

                  > Do you have any source for your claim above that the three year
                  > lectionary is an ancient use?

                  The church in Milan 4th century; Spain and Gaul late 4th century;
                  Rome until fifth century; Byzantine Church until 7th century; also
                  ancient Palestinian lectionary cycle of Torah.

                  See Norm Bonneau's "The Sunday Lectionary - Ritual Word, Paschal
                  Shape", The Liturical Press, Colleggeville, 1998, ISBN:0-8146-2457-X,
                  p. 36

                  If Norm is correct, one can presume that Mozarabic use had a sharp
                  turnaround in 12th century and Gaul before that. I had a very quick
                  look through Vogel and didn't see anything pertinent, although he
                  does give examples of lectio continua in a Mozarabic book.




                  James O'Regan
                  http://www.jamesoregan.com
                  tel 613-824-4706
                • D
                  Please can you give us a quick summary of Jungmann s comments? Not all of us can run to a convenient theological library to look up a reference (unless 3.5
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 5, 2001
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                    Please can you give us a quick summary of Jungmann's comments?
                    Not all of us can run to a convenient theological library to look
                    up a reference (unless 3.5 hours one way is convenient <GRIN>).
                    Are his conclusions similar to Norm Bonneau in "The Sunday
                    Lectionary - Ritual Word, Paschal Shape" as referenced by James?

                    Thanks.

                    Doug

                    *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                    On 9/5/2001 at 4:21 PM Douglas Cowling wrote:

                    >on 9/5/01 3:34 PM, Kenneth Doll at kenneth.doll@... wrote:
                    >
                    >> Do you have any source for your claim above that the three
                    year
                    >> lectionary is an ancient use? Every ancient lectionary that I
                    >> have seen is a one year lectionary.
                    >>
                    >> Kenneth Doll
                    >
                    >Josef Jungmann gives a brief overview of ancient lectionaries in
                    "The Mass"
                    >an Historical, Theological and Pastoral Survey" (Collegeville:
                    The
                    >Litrugical Press). The book is a good commentary on the Novus
                    Ordo.
                    >
                    >
                    >Doug Cowling
                    >____________________________________________________________
                    >Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
                    >Church of the Messiah
                    >Toronto
                    >
                    >
                    >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    >liturgy-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                    >liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Douglas Cowling
                    ... James Reagan s posting encapsulates the history. The key element is that there is great diversity in various traditions with 4 or 5 readings in some
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 5, 2001
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                      on 9/5/01 6:26 PM, D at thurifer@... wrote:

                      > Please can you give us a quick summary of Jungmann's comments?
                      > Not all of us can run to a convenient theological library to look
                      > up a reference (unless 3.5 hours one way is convenient <GRIN>).
                      > Are his conclusions similar to Norm Bonneau in "The Sunday
                      > Lectionary - Ritual Word, Paschal Shape" as referenced by James?
                      >
                      > Thanks.
                      >
                      > Doug

                      James Reagan's posting encapsulates the history. The key element is that
                      there is great diversity in various traditions with 4 or 5 readings in some
                      churches, and even non-scriptural readings at the eucharist (saint's Passios
                      in Milan). Uniformity has never been traditional.

                      A good background book for the pluralism of "churches" in the Apostolic
                      period is Raymond Brown's "The Churches the Apostles Left Behind". I
                      ground-breaking book which is very readable by a general audience. I've
                      seen it work extremely well in adult education courses. Brown's scholarship
                      is always impeccable, and his faith is quite compelling.

                      Doug Cowling
                      ____________________________________________________________
                      Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
                      Church of the Messiah
                      Toronto
                    • M. Thannisch
                      ... some ... Passios ... The Coptic church using (I think) the Liturgy of St. James still uses five readings. Shalom in Yeshua ha Moshiach Michael Joe
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 5, 2001
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                        >
                        > James Reagan's posting encapsulates the history. The key element is that
                        > there is great diversity in various traditions with 4 or 5 readings in
                        some
                        > churches, and even non-scriptural readings at the eucharist (saint's
                        Passios
                        > in Milan). Uniformity has never been traditional.
                        >
                        The Coptic church using (I think) the Liturgy of St. James still uses five
                        readings.

                        Shalom in Yeshua ha Moshiach

                        Michael Joe Thannisch
                        mjthan@...
                      • Kenneth Doll
                        ... ISBN:0-8146-2457-X, ... James, Thank you for this information. Could you elaborate on what you mean by a sharp turnaround ? And also, does a lectio
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                          --- In liturgy-l@y..., "James O'Regan" <oregan@j...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The church in Milan 4th century; Spain and Gaul late 4th century;
                          > Rome until fifth century; Byzantine Church until 7th century; also
                          > ancient Palestinian lectionary cycle of Torah.
                          >
                          > See Norm Bonneau's "The Sunday Lectionary - Ritual Word, Paschal
                          > Shape", The Liturical Press, Colleggeville, 1998,
                          ISBN:0-8146-2457-X,
                          > p. 36
                          >
                          > If Norm is correct, one can presume that Mozarabic use had a sharp
                          > turnaround in 12th century and Gaul before that. I had a very quick
                          > look through Vogel and didn't see anything pertinent, although he
                          > does give examples of lectio continua in a Mozarabic book.

                          James,
                          Thank you for this information. Could you elaborate on what you
                          mean by a "sharp turnaround"? And also, does a "lectio continua"
                          necessarily imply a three year lectionary? The 1549 and later
                          English BCP use something very close to a lectio continua for the
                          offices but it is only a one year cycle.

                          Also, for the others that responded and mentioned a variety of
                          practices where 3, 4, 5, or more lessons were read, I certainly
                          have seen this, but this is really a separate issue to the three
                          year lectionary, isn't it?

                          Thanks,
                          Kenneth Doll
                        • James O'Regan
                          ... Then sharp turnaround would have been when Rome pounced on Spain forbidding Mozarabic use except in Toledo and, I think, one other church, sometime in the
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                            Kenneth Doll wrote and I snipped:

                            > Could you elaborate on what you
                            > mean by a "sharp turnaround"?

                            Then sharp turnaround would have been when Rome pounced on Spain
                            forbidding Mozarabic use except in Toledo and, I think, one other
                            church, sometime in the late 1100's, if I recall correctly..

                            And also, does a "lectio continua"
                            > necessarily imply a three year lectionary?

                            Nothing necessarily implies a three year lectionary and neither was
                            I. A lectio continua may be sufficient for such an implication.
                            Nevertheless, given the number of non festive Sundays, if one has a
                            substantial lectio continua without a three year cycle then one has a
                            one year cycle based on one "synoptic" gospel only. Rather paucitic
                            and them Mozarabes were hardly that. They had buckets of flourish so
                            if one sees a lectio continua in a Mozarabic context, it's a good
                            place to start looking for the other two (or more) years. There is
                            sufficient implication for a search.



                            James O'Regan
                            http://www.jamesoregan.com
                            tel 613-824-4706
                          • Kenneth Doll
                            ... a ... Would a lectio continua be restricted to Sundays? If used even on Saturdays as well, this would double the readings, and if other days, this would
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                              --- In liturgy-l@y..., "James O'Regan" <oregan@j...> wrote:

                              > Nothing necessarily implies a three year lectionary and neither was
                              > I. A lectio continua may be sufficient for such an implication.
                              > Nevertheless, given the number of non festive Sundays, if one has a
                              > substantial lectio continua without a three year cycle then one has
                              a
                              > one year cycle based on one "synoptic" gospel only. Rather paucitic
                              > and them Mozarabes were hardly that. They had buckets of flourish so
                              > if one sees a lectio continua in a Mozarabic context, it's a good
                              > place to start looking for the other two (or more) years. There is
                              > sufficient implication for a search.

                              Would a lectio continua be restricted to Sundays? If used even on
                              Saturdays as well, this would double the readings, and if other days,
                              this would add up. (the Jerusalem typikon that the Orthodox use
                              has an almost lectio continua for the weekdays that exhausts all the
                              gospel and apostolic reading in one year)

                              It is kind of ironic, though, that perhaps the Romans eliminated a
                              multi-year cycle from the Mozarabic (sp?) rite, only to initiate
                              the three year cycle themselves centuries later.

                              Kenneth Doll
                            • Jan J.H.Hofland
                              Hi all, A lectio continua , a continuous reading was advocated by John Calvin (of all people!) for Protestant churches as a good method of reading an
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                Hi all,

                                A 'lectio continua', a 'continuous reading' was advocated by John Calvin
                                (of all people!) for Protestant churches as a good method of reading an
                                entire Bible book, for instance, a chapter per Sunday. His reason was that
                                illiterate people (and there were a lot of those in the 17th century) would
                                eventually hear the entire Bible being read in church.

                                This practice did not last long in the Calvinistic branch of protestantism.
                                Interestingly enough, the 'Ecumenical Lectionary' now used by all mainstream
                                churches in The Netherlands, re-introduced this principle. This time not
                                because many people are illiterate but (I suppose) because many people are
                                not exactly avid readers of the Bible ;-). This month we're reading from
                                Colosians. As ministers, we're not expected to preach on this reading or
                                even expected to link this reading to the other readings.

                                My question is, what are the real historical roots for this reading?

                                Jan J.H.Hofland
                                jjh.hofland@...
                              • fcsenn@aol.com
                                In a message dated 9/6/2001 4:30:45 PM Central Daylight Time, ... No. The daily lectionary in the LBW and the BCP follows the lectio continua principle.
                                Message 15 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                  In a message dated 9/6/2001 4:30:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                  kenneth.doll@... writes:


                                  > Would a lectio continua be restricted to Sundays?

                                  No. The daily lectionary in the LBW and the BCP follows the lectio continua
                                  principle.

                                  FCSenn


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • fcsenn@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 9/6/2001 4:58:38 PM Central Daylight Time, ... You express surprise that John Calvin would advocate a lectio continua. The principle was
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                    In a message dated 9/6/2001 4:58:38 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                    jjh.hofland@... writes:


                                    >
                                    > A 'lectio continua', a 'continuous reading' was advocated by John Calvin
                                    > (of all people!) for Protestant churches as a good method of reading an
                                    > entire Bible book, for instance, a chapter per Sunday. His reason was that
                                    > illiterate people (and there were a lot of those in the 17th century) would
                                    > eventually hear the entire Bible being read in church.
                                    >

                                    You express surprise that John Calvin would advocate a lectio continua. The
                                    principle was already established in Reformed Churches before Calvin. The
                                    reformers preferred lectio continua. The Lutherans held out for the historic
                                    pericope system, but only at the Sunday Eucharist.

                                    FCSenn


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Maureen Lahiff
                                    please add to your list of daily lectio continua the 2 year RC weekday cycle. Ok, so it s pretty complete for the gospel and not for the 1st reading, but the
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Sep 6, 2001
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                                      please add to your list of daily lectio continua the 2 year RC weekday cycle.

                                      Ok, so it's pretty complete for the gospel and not for the 1st reading,
                                      but the 1st readings attempt to cover the major non-gospel books, albeit
                                      with skips.

                                      also, I can't remember if anyone has pointed out that the 4th gospel is the
                                      last 3 weeks of Lent and the Sundays and weeksdays of the Easter Season in
                                      the RC lectionary.
                                    • Jan J.H.Hofland
                                      ... Calvinist churches traditionally did not use a lectionary, that is to say a pericope system. They followed the line set out by Zwingli, Bullinger, Bucer
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Sep 7, 2001
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                                        Frank Senn wrote:

                                        > You express surprise that John Calvin would advocate a lectio continua.

                                        Calvinist churches traditionally did not use a lectionary, that is to say a
                                        pericope system. They followed the line set out by Zwingli, Bullinger, Bucer
                                        and Calvin, who chose for a lectio continua beside a free-choice reading by
                                        the preacher. According to Calvin, the pericope system(s) known to him did
                                        not reflect expert biblical knowledge, tended to make preachers lazy and
                                        fattened the purses of the writers of printed pericope sermons.

                                        My surprise is that the above mentioned chose for a system at all, be it a
                                        lectio continua. Before long, this was replaced by the use of the
                                        Heidelberg Catechism as the basis for a teaching service in the afternoon or
                                        evening.

                                        Jan J.H.Hofland
                                        jjh.hofland@...
                                      • TAPoelker@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 9/5/2001 3:46:37 PM Central Daylight Time, ... I thought Jungman died long before the Novus Ordo was published. Tom Poelker St. Louis MO
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Sep 12, 2001
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                                          In a message dated 9/5/2001 3:46:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                          dcowling@... writes:


                                          > Josef Jungmann gives a brief overview of ancient lectionaries in "The Mass"
                                          > an Historical, Theological and Pastoral Survey" (Collegeville: The
                                          > Litrugical Press). The book is a good commentary on the Novus Ordo

                                          I thought Jungman died long before the Novus Ordo was published.

                                          Tom Poelker
                                          St. Louis MO USA



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Douglas Cowling
                                          ... Jungmann died in 1975 after a scholarly career which influenced the liturgical reforms of Vatican II. Life and bibliography below. Doug Cowling
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 12, 2001
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                                            on 9/12/01 4:30 AM, TAPoelker@... at TAPoelker@... wrote:

                                            > I thought Jungman died long before the Novus Ordo was published.
                                            >
                                            > Tom Poelker

                                            Jungmann died in 1975 after a scholarly career which influenced the
                                            liturgical reforms of Vatican II. Life and bibliography below.

                                            Doug Cowling
                                            ____________________________________________________________
                                            Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
                                            Church of the Messiah
                                            Toronto


                                            ****************************************************
                                            JUNGMANN, Josef Andreas, katholischer Liturgiewissenschaftler und
                                            Katechiker, * 16.11. 1889 in Taufers (Südtirol), + 26.1. 1975 in Innsbruck.
                                            - J. studierte in Brixen, in Innsbruck, München und Wien; 1913
                                            Priesterweihe; 1917 Eintritt in die Gesellschaft Jesu. J. dozierte seit 1925
                                            in Innsbruck Pädagogik, Katechetik und Liturgik (1930 a. o.; 1934 o.
                                            Professor; 1956 Versetzung in den Ruhestand, danach nur noch
                                            liturgiewissenschaftliche Vorlesungen); 1926-1963 (mit Unterbrechungen)
                                            Schriftleiter der ZKTh; seit 1940 in der Deutschen, seit 1945 in der
                                            sterreichischen Liturgischen Kommission; Mitglied der
                                            Vorbereitungskommission und Peritus der Liturgischen Kommission des
                                            Vaticanum II. Seine christozentrisch orientierten Arbeiten förderten,
                                            wenngleich sein »Die Frohbotschaft und unsere Glaubensverkündigung« 1936 vom
                                            Buchmarkt zurückgezogen werden mußte, die Theorie der Katechetik,
                                            insbesondere die material-kerygmatische Reformbewegung. Sich immer stärker
                                            liturgischen Fragen zuwendend, faßte er mit seiner genetischen Erklärung der
                                            Meßfeier »Missarum Sollemnia« die vorhandenen Forschungen zusammen und
                                            rechtfertigte glänzend die Sicht der Kirche als Gemeinschaft der Gläubigen
                                            in Christus und entsprechend auch die aktive Teilnahme des Volkes. Zusammen
                                            mit anderen die Liturgik aus rubrizistischer Verengung herausführend, ist J.
                                            einer der großen unmittelbaren Wegbereiter der Liturgiekonstitution des
                                            Vaticanum II.

                                            Werke: Die Stellung Christi im liturg. Gebet, 1925, 19622; Die lat. Bußriten
                                            in ihrer geschichtl. Entwicklung, 1932; Die Frohbotschaft und unsere
                                            Glaubensverkündigung, 1936; Christus als Mittelpunkt religiöser Erziehung,
                                            1939; Die liturg. Feier. Grundsätzliches und Geschichtliches über
                                            Formgesetze der Liturgie, 1939, 19613; Gewordene Liturgie. Studien und
                                            Durchblicke, 1941; Die Eucharistie, 1947; Missarum Sollemnia. Eine
                                            genetische Erklärung der röm. Messe, 2 Bde., 1948, 19625; Katechetik.
                                            Aufgabe und Methode der religiösen Unterweisung, 1953, 19653; Das
                                            Eucharistische Hochgebet. Grundgedanken des Canon Missae, 1954; Vom Sinn der
                                            Messe als Opfer der Gemeinschaft, 1954; Der Gottesdienst der Kirche auf dem
                                            Hintergrund seiner Geschichte kurz erl., 1955, 19623; The Early Liturgy to
                                            the Time of Gregory the Great, 1959, dt.: Liturgie der christl. Frühzeit bis
                                            auf Gregor den Großen, 1967; Sonntag und Sonntagsmesse. Sinn der
                                            Sonntagsfeier, 1959, 19663; Symbolik der kath. Kirche (mit Anhang v. Ekkart
                                            Sauser), 1960; Liturg. Erbe und pastorale Ggw. Studien und Vorträge, 1960;
                                            Liturg. Erneuerung. Rückblick und Ausblick, 1962; Glaubensverkündigung im
                                            Lichte der Frohbotschaft, 1963; Wortgottesdienst im Lichte von Theol. und
                                            Gesch., 1965; Einleitung und Kommentar zur Konstitution über die heilige
                                            Liturgie, in: LThKVat I, 10-109; Christl. Beten im Wandel und Bestand, 1969;
                                            Erneuerte Meßliturgie. Gedanken und Hinweise zum Verständnis der
                                            Liturgiereform, 1969; Messe im Gottesvolk. Ein nachkonziliarer Durchblick
                                            durch Missarum Sollemnia, 1970. - J. A. J.-Bibliogr., in: Balthasar Fischer
                                            - Hans Bernhard Meyer (Hrsg.), J. A. J. Ein Leben für Liturgie und Kerygma,
                                            1975, 156-207.
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