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Re: [liturgy-l] holding hands

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  • Paul Andrew
    I first encountered this holding of hands on pilgrimage to Medjugorje in 1987, so guessed it was
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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      << where and when did this custom of holding hands start? >>

      I first encountered this holding of hands on pilgrimage to Medjugorje in 1987, so guessed it was of RC origin, but had not encountered it in the UK in either RC or Cof E churches.
      Paul Andrew



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • M. Thannisch
      ... 1987, so guessed it was of RC origin, but had not encountered it in the UK in either RC or Cof E churches. ... Holding hands for trhe Lord s prayer has
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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        > << where and when did this custom of holding hands start? >>
        >
        > I first encountered this holding of hands on pilgrimage to Medjugorje in
        1987, so guessed it was of RC origin, but had not encountered it in the UK
        in either RC or Cof E churches.
        > Paul Andrew
        >
        Holding hands for trhe Lord's prayer has been done around Houston in RC
        churches from at least the early 80's if not before.

        Shalom in Yeshua ha Moshiach

        Michael Joe Thannisch
        mjthan@...
      • Noel Stoutenburg
        ... I seem to recall that I remember it from the early 70 s, but from the alternative service environment,.... ns
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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          "M. Thannisch" wrote:

          > > << where and when did this custom of holding hands start? >>
          > >
          > > I first encountered this holding of hands on pilgrimage to Medjugorje in
          > 1987, so guessed it was of RC origin, but had not encountered it in the UK
          > in either RC or Cof E churches.
          > > Paul Andrew
          > >
          > Holding hands for trhe Lord's prayer has been done around Houston in RC
          > churches from at least the early 80's if not before.

          I seem to recall that I remember it from the early '70's, but from the
          "alternative service" environment,....

          ns
        • vistanfl@aol.com
          I suspect it either caused, was caused by, or resulted from much the same spirit that motivated the growth in the Cursillo movement in the RC and ECUSA
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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            I suspect it either caused, was caused by, or resulted from much the same
            spirit that motivated the growth in the Cursillo movement in the RC and ECUSA
            intiially and in its various "offspring" in other Protestant denominations
            since. It was the "norm" for on of my CA parishes in 1980 (and seemed like
            something well-established then -- but you know Anglicans -- fight change,
            but do it twice and its "tradition.")

            George Carlson
            Holy Trinity
            Melbourne, FL


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Douglas Cowling
            ... Far more common than holding hands for the Lord s Prayer is the custom of each person praying with upturned palms in a modified orans position. I first
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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              >> Holding hands for trhe Lord's prayer has been done around Houston in RC
              >> churches from at least the early 80's if not before.


              Far more common than holding hands for the Lord's Prayer is the custom of
              each person praying with upturned palms in a modified orans position. I
              first encountered it in RC parishes in France ten years ago. Given that it
              is a prayer, the gesture seems appropriate. The practice appears to be
              growing informally in the Anglican Church of Canada.


              Doug Cowling
              ____________________________________________________________
              Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
              Church of the Messiah
              Toronto
            • Jon West
              Upturned palms with arms slighly extended during the Lord s Prayer is what is suggested in __Qurbono THe Book of Offering, The Service of the Holy Mysteries,
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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                Upturned palms with arms slighly extended during the Lord's Prayer is what
                is suggested in __Qurbono THe Book of Offering, The Service of the Holy
                Mysteries, according to the Antiochene Syriac Maronite Church.

                " The celebrant and congregation EXTEND THEIR HANDS and pray:"

                This was the only time during the Divine Liturgy that the book instructed us
                to do so.

                I think that as one extends their hands the person next to them would hold
                their hands. Probably by default? I'm fishing and guessing. I did not see
                holding hands at the Divine Liturgy at the Maronite Church.

                This version of __The Book of Offering, was compiled in 1989.

                Jon West

                > From: Douglas Cowling <dcowling@...>
                > Reply-To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 09:43:28 -0400
                > To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: [liturgy-l] Orans for L's Prayer
                >
                >
                > Far more common than holding hands for the Lord's Prayer is the custom of
                > each person praying with upturned palms in a modified orans position. I
                > first encountered it in RC parishes in France ten years ago. Given that it
                > is a prayer, the gesture seems appropriate. The practice appears to be
                > growing informally in the Anglican Church of Canada.
              • John Dornheim
                Worshipers raising their arms during prayer has always been off putting to me. I suppose I consider it to be Charismatic or Pentecostal. Certainly not
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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                  Worshipers raising their arms during prayer has always been off putting
                  to me. I suppose I consider it to be Charismatic or Pentecostal.
                  Certainly not Lutheran! It seems to say "I'm being more prayerful than
                  those who don't." Isn't there also a tradition in which everyone raises
                  their arms when they get to the final petition "For yours is the
                  kingdom..."

                  John Dornheim
                • Ormonde Plater
                  Should we not lift our prayers during all prayer, not just the LP? That would include presidential prayers (eucharistic prayer, collects, etc.) and
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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                    Should we not lift our prayers during all prayer, not just the LP? That
                    would include presidential prayers (eucharistic prayer, collects, etc.) and
                    intercessions. Of course, this practice might call for another piece of
                    furniture, elbow rests.

                    Ormonde Plater
                    oplater@...
                  • Douglas Cowling
                    ... The pattern in Europe that I found was that the people raised their hands at the petition in the intercessions and at the Lord s prayer. Only the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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                      on 8/4/01 11:17 AM, Ormonde Plater at oplater@... wrote:

                      > Should we not lift our prayers during all prayer, not just the LP? That
                      > would include presidential prayers (eucharistic prayer, collects, etc.) and
                      > intercessions. Of course, this practice might call for another piece of
                      > furniture, elbow rests.
                      >
                      > Ormonde Plater

                      The pattern in Europe that I found was that the people raised their hands at
                      the petition in the intercessions and at the Lord's prayer. Only the
                      celebrant raised his hands for the presidential prayers. That has logic on
                      its side.

                      Doug Cowling
                      ____________________________________________________________
                      Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
                      Church of the Messiah
                      Toronto
                    • LesandJon@aol.com
                      In a message dated 8/4/01 10:50:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, john19@unidial.com writes:
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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                        In a message dated 8/4/01 10:50:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                        john19@... writes:

                        << Worshipers raising their arms during prayer has always been off putting
                        to me. I suppose I consider it to be Charismatic or Pentecostal.
                        Certainly not Lutheran! It seems to say "I'm being more prayerful than
                        those who don't." Isn't there also a tradition in which everyone raises
                        their arms when they get to the final petition "For yours is the
                        kingdom..." >>

                        It's never been of sufficient import for me to reasearch further, but in RC
                        circles the hand-holding is rumored to have begun in the Charismatic Renewal
                        program. The procedure seems to be to hold hands at waist level and raise
                        them up during the doxology. (Remember we RCs break for the libera nos.)
                        Orans in my RC experience seems to be about shoulder high, though many seem
                        to keep their hands at waist level with palms up. As with any questionable
                        practice (like singing a hymn), Catholics like to keep their options open in
                        case God comes back and is terribly annoyed at such modernistic excess.
                        Refusing to open the hymnal or keeping the hands at waist level allows us to
                        get back into a reverent position before God notices we've been taking part
                        in such fol-de-rol.

                        Les, with tongue firmly in cheek
                      • Martin A. Milne
                        John, I disagree. This preference of poasture does not pre-suppose superiority. One of the things that we need to be careful as people of faith, in the/an
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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                          John,

                          I disagree. This preference of poasture does not pre-suppose superiority.
                          One of the things that we need to be careful as people of faith, in the/an
                          orthodox tradition, is that our "orthoproxy" does not exclude.

                          I would like to hear why a person shouldn't do this? Perhaps not a single
                          hand waving in the air, but a smaller version of the orans. I hope
                          pastors/worship leaders are not perceived as being the "bunny eyes"/antenna
                          for better reception?

                          Marty Milne
                        • John Dornheim
                          ... I m not sure if we should or shouldn t. I just know that it gives me the heebie jeebies. I ve also sensed that some perceive it as a sign of orthodoxy.
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 4, 2001
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                            "Martin A. Milne" wrote:

                            > John,
                            >
                            > I disagree. This preference of poasture does not pre-suppose superiority.
                            > One of the things that we need to be careful as people of faith, in the/an
                            > orthodox tradition, is that our "orthoproxy" does not exclude.
                            >
                            > I would like to hear why a person shouldn't do this? Perhaps not a single
                            > hand waving in the air, but a smaller version of the orans. I hope
                            > pastors/worship leaders are not perceived as being the "bunny eyes"/antenna
                            > for better reception?
                            >
                            > Marty Milne
                            >

                            I'm not sure if we should or shouldn't. I just know that it gives me the
                            heebie jeebies. I've also sensed that some perceive it as a sign of orthodoxy.

                            John Dornheim
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