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Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Converts to Orthodoxy

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  • M. Thannisch
    In Houston, the Antiochian (Arabic) church has an English speaking mission. Shalom in Yeshua ha Moshiach Michael Joe Thannisch mjthan@quik.com ... From:
    Message 1 of 37 , Jul 31 7:51 PM
      In Houston, the Antiochian (Arabic) church has an English speaking mission.

      Shalom in Yeshua ha Moshiach

      Michael Joe Thannisch
      mjthan@...
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Douglas Cowling" <dcowling@...>
      To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 7:21 PM
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Converts to Orthodoxy


      > on 7/31/01 7:35 PM, Thomas R. Jackson at thomas@... wrote:
      >
      > >> Fascinating demographic phenomenon. Are non-ethnic converts going to
      the
      > >> Greeks more than the Russians?
      > >
      > >
      > > I don't have any hard demographic data, but my informal observations
      > > suggest that Russians (I will include the OCA with "Russians") and
      > > Antiochians seem to be the biggest beneficiaries of this movement.
      Greeks
      > > seem to remain Greek, and be a little more "settled." Recently a new
      Greek
      > > Archbishop tried imposing a number of "conservative" liturgical reforms
      and
      > > met a great deal of resentment and resistance, though, as usual, there
      was
      > > a great deal more to the story than that.
      > >
      > > Scott Knitter pondered on a relationship between Orthodox and Catholic
      > > "Conservative" movements. Again, only my own observations, but there
      does
      > > seem to be at least some cross fertilization going on. Some
      > > "tradtitionalist" Catholics have been part of the recent migration to
      > > Orthodoxy, while others have drifted over to Eastern Catholic Churches.
      I
      > > am sure that this has at least some influence on some of the voices
      heard
      > > in Orthodoxy regarding Catholicism, at least in the US.
      > >
      > > thomas
      >
      >
      > I know that the Greeks have established non-ethnic parishes with an
      English
      > liturgy. Have any of the other Orthodox started similar parishes?
      >
      >
      > Doug Cowling
      > ____________________________________________________________
      > Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
      > Church of the Messiah
      > Toronto
      >
      >
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    • fcsenn@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/3/2001 5:51:16 AM Central Daylight Time, jonwest@tds.net ... For the sake of accuracy: while Luther was the primary author of *The
      Message 37 of 37 , Aug 3, 2001
        In a message dated 8/3/2001 5:51:16 AM Central Daylight Time, jonwest@...
        writes:


        >
        > Pastor Senn, you were the first one to bring to my attention in 1999, that
        > Martin Luther did not object to the office of the papacy as divinely
        > instituted. This was when "The Gift of Authority " was first released.
        >
        >

        For the sake of accuracy: while Luther was the primary author of *The
        Smalcald Articles,* it was not he, but Phillip Melanchthon, who signed them
        with the codicil, "However, concerning the pope I hold that, if he would
        allow the Gospel, we, too, may concede to him that superiority over the
        bishops which he possesses by human right, making this concession for the
        sake of peace and general unity among the Christians who are now under him
        and who may be in the future." Since this was allowed to stand in The Book
        of Concord, I would argue that Lutherans can accept the pope as the universal
        bishop on the basis of the human (i.e. historical) traditions accruing to the
        see of Rome and the prestige of his office, not because God instituted the
        papacy. We might also officially disavow Luther's view that the pope bears
        the marks of Antichrist, leaving intact the confessional position that any
        office in the church that would hinder the preaching of the gospel is to be
        regarded as antichrist.

        The point of my post was to indicate the possibilities for transcending the
        impasse on the papal office that can be explored in dialogue, some of which
        have been proffered by the present pontiff. There was no need for a long
        disquisition on all the instances of variety in the ritual practices of the
        Roman Church since Vatican II. "Enforcer of uniformity" has been a role
        played by the Vatican, with the pope at its head, since the Council of Trent.
        There are not a few Roman Catholics who see signs of reaction to the more
        liberal policies post-Vatican II, including (since this is a liturgy list)
        the recent document on translation, "Liturgicam authenticam," with its
        reminder that the Latin text remains the official archetype and its subtext:
        don't think you can get by with something in the name of translation. So,
        for example, "Et cum spiritu tuo" is the archetype; "And also with you" won't
        do as a translation. Peoplke like Horace Allen took this as a not-so-veiled
        slam at the work of ecumenical consultations on language in the liturgy.

        FCSenn


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