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Re: [liturgy-l] Canoniztions

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  • Scott Knitter
    I d guess they d retain their heavenly birthdays (earthly death days)? On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Douglas Cowling ... -- Scott R. Knitter Edgewater,
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 30, 2013
      I'd guess they'd retain their heavenly birthdays (earthly death days)?

      On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Douglas Cowling
      <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
      > "(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis on Monday morning held the Public Ordinary
      > Consistory for the forthcoming Canonization of Blessed Pope John XXIII
      > and Blessed Pope John Paul II. During the course of the Consistory in the
      > Vatican's Consistory Hall, the Pope decreed that his two predecessors will
      > be raised to Sainthood on April 27, 2014, the day on which the Church
      > celebrates the Second Sunday of Easter and Divine Mercy."
      >
      > Does this mean that they will share a feast day, or retain Oct 11 (JXXII)
      > and May 1 (JPII)?
      >
      > Doug Cowling
      > Director of Music
      > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      > Toronto
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >



      --
      Scott R. Knitter
      Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
    • Ian Gomersall
      I don t think the day of canonisation becomes the saint s day does it? I m with Scott on this one. Ian Our Lady of the Crag, Knaresborough see:
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 22, 2013
        I don't think the day of canonisation becomes the saint's day does it? I'm with Scott on this one.

        Ian



        On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:
         

        I'd guess they'd retain their heavenly birthdays (earthly death days)?



        On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Douglas Cowling
        <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
        > "(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis on Monday morning held the Public Ordinary
        > Consistory for the forthcoming Canonization of Blessed Pope John XXIII
        > and Blessed Pope John Paul II. During the course of the Consistory in the
        > Vatican's Consistory Hall, the Pope decreed that his two predecessors will
        > be raised to Sainthood on April 27, 2014, the day on which the Church
        > celebrates the Second Sunday of Easter and Divine Mercy."
        >
        > Does this mean that they will share a feast day, or retain Oct 11 (JXXII)
        > and May 1 (JPII)?
        >
        > Doug Cowling
        > Director of Music
        > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        > Toronto
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Scott R. Knitter
        Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA


      • Lewis Whitaker
        It can. It s often (and usually) set on the day of death, but there have been some deviations, especially if the day is impeded.
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 22, 2013
          It can. 
          It's often (and usually) set on the day of death, but there have been some deviations, especially if the day is impeded. 





          On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:31 AM, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:

          I don't think the day of canonisation becomes the saint's day does it? I'm with Scott on this one.

          Ian



          On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:
           

          I'd guess they'd retain their heavenly birthdays (earthly death days)?



          On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Douglas Cowling
          <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
          > "(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis on Monday morning held the Public Ordinary
          > Consistory for the forthcoming Canonization of Blessed Pope John XXIII
          > and Blessed Pope John Paul II. During the course of the Consistory in the
          > Vatican's Consistory Hall, the Pope decreed that his two predecessors will
          > be raised to Sainthood on April 27, 2014, the day on which the Church
          > celebrates the Second Sunday of Easter and Divine Mercy."
          >
          > Does this mean that they will share a feast day, or retain Oct 11 (JXXII)
          > and May 1 (JPII)?
          >
          > Doug Cowling
          > Director of Music
          > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
          > Toronto
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Scott R. Knitter
          Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA


        • Michael Thannisch
          Usually it is the death day.   Sometimes the day of Canonisation, and many times the date of the transfer of relics.    Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 22, 2013
            Usually it is the death day.   Sometimes the day of Canonisation, and many times the date of the transfer of relics. 

             
            Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
             
            +Mar Michael Abportus
            Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
            http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
            http://patriotstatesman.com/
            http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
            http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
            204 Sylvan Ave.
            La Porte, TX 77571
            281-867-9081 (home)
            281-867-0335 (office)
            832-266-8153 (mobile)
            281-867-0576 (fax)


            From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
            To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:48 AM
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Canoniztions

             
            It can. 
            It's often (and usually) set on the day of death, but there have been some deviations, especially if the day is impeded. 





            On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:31 AM, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:

            I don't think the day of canonisation becomes the saint's day does it? I'm with Scott on this one.

            Ian



            On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:
             
            I'd guess they'd retain their heavenly birthdays (earthly death days)?


            On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Douglas Cowling
            <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
            > "(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis on Monday morning held the Public Ordinary
            > Consistory for the forthcoming Canonization of Blessed Pope John XXIII
            > and Blessed Pope John Paul II. During the course of the Consistory in the
            > Vatican's Consistory Hall, the Pope decreed that his two predecessors will
            > be raised to Sainthood on April 27, 2014, the day on which the Church
            > celebrates the Second Sunday of Easter and Divine Mercy."
            >
            > Does this mean that they will share a feast day, or retain Oct 11 (JXXII)
            > and May 1 (JPII)?
            >
            > Doug Cowling
            > Director of Music
            > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
            > Toronto
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Scott R. Knitter
            Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA



          • Sandford MacLean
            As has been pointed out, the date isn t necessarily the heavenly birthday, or date of canonization, or date of translation of relics. Bl John Henry Newman,
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 22, 2013

              As has been pointed out, the date isn't necessarily the heavenly birthday, or date of canonization, or date of translation of relics.  Bl John Henry Newman, for example, is celebrated on the 9 October in the Roman Catholic Church, which was the date of his conversion.  In various Anglican kalendars his feast day is 11 August, which is the date of his heavenly birthday.

              Sandford MacLean
              Sent from my iPad

              On Oct 22, 2013, at 9:02, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

               

              Usually it is the death day.   Sometimes the day of Canonisation, and many times the date of the transfer of relics. 

               
              Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
               
              +Mar Michael Abportus
              Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
              204 Sylvan Ave.
              La Porte, TX 77571
              281-867-9081 (home)
              281-867-0335 (office)
              832-266-8153 (mobile)
              281-867-0576 (fax)


              From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
              To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:48 AM
              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Canoniztions

               
              It can. 
              It's often (and usually) set on the day of death, but there have been some deviations, especially if the day is impeded. 





              On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:31 AM, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:

              I don't think the day of canonisation becomes the saint's day does it? I'm with Scott on this one.

              Ian



              On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:
               
              I'd guess they'd retain their heavenly birthdays (earthly death days)?


              On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Douglas Cowling
              <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
              > "(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis on Monday morning held the Public Ordinary
              > Consistory for the forthcoming Canonization of Blessed Pope John XXIII
              > and Blessed Pope John Paul II. During the course of the Consistory in the
              > Vatican's Consistory Hall, the Pope decreed that his two predecessors will
              > be raised to Sainthood on April 27, 2014, the day on which the Church
              > celebrates the Second Sunday of Easter and Divine Mercy."
              >
              > Does this mean that they will share a feast day, or retain Oct 11 (JXXII)
              > and May 1 (JPII)?
              >
              > Doug Cowling
              > Director of Music
              > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
              > Toronto
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Scott R. Knitter
              Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA



            • Ian Gomersall
              Very interesting to understand the variety. I can see that sometimes necessity could mean other dates are chosen. Do we know the days chosen for the observaace
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 23, 2013
                Very interesting to understand the variety. I can see that sometimes necessity could mean other dates are chosen. Do we know the days chosen for the observaace of John 23, JP II and Mother Theresa?


                Ian Gomersall

                First Impressions of St C's: 


                On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...> wrote:
                 


                As has been pointed out, the date isn't necessarily the heavenly birthday, or date of canonization, or date of translation of relics.  Bl John Henry Newman, for example, is celebrated on the 9 October in the Roman Catholic Church, which was the date of his conversion.  In various Anglican kalendars his feast day is 11 August, which is the date of his heavenly birthday.

                Sandford MacLean
                Sent from my iPad

                On Oct 22, 2013, at 9:02, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                 

                Usually it is the death day.   Sometimes the day of Canonisation, and many times the date of the transfer of relics. 

                 
                Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                 
                +Mar Michael Abportus
                Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                204 Sylvan Ave.
                La Porte, TX 77571
                281-867-9081 (home)
                281-867-0335 (office)
                832-266-8153 (mobile)
                281-867-0576 (fax)


                From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
                To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:48 AM
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Canoniztions

                 
                It can. 
                It's often (and usually) set on the day of death, but there have been some deviations, especially if the day is impeded. 





                On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:31 AM, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:

                I don't think the day of canonisation becomes the saint's day does it? I'm with Scott on this one.

                Ian



                On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:
                 
                I'd guess they'd retain their heavenly birthdays (earthly death days)?


                On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Douglas Cowling
                <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                > "(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis on Monday morning held the Public Ordinary
                > Consistory for the forthcoming Canonization of Blessed Pope John XXIII
                > and Blessed Pope John Paul II. During the course of the Consistory in the
                > Vatican's Consistory Hall, the Pope decreed that his two predecessors will
                > be raised to Sainthood on April 27, 2014, the day on which the Church
                > celebrates the Second Sunday of Easter and Divine Mercy."
                >
                > Does this mean that they will share a feast day, or retain Oct 11 (JXXII)
                > and May 1 (JPII)?
                >
                > Doug Cowling
                > Director of Music
                > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                > Toronto
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >

                --
                Scott R. Knitter
                Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA




              • Lewis Whitaker
                John XXIII s date is on 11 October, the day of the first session of the Second Vatican Council. JP II s is October 22 the day on which he inaugurated his
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 23, 2013
                  John XXIII's date "is on 11 October, the day of the first session of the Second Vatican Council."

                  JP II's is October 22 "the day on which he inaugurated his petrine ministry"


                  On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 5:57 AM, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:


                  Very interesting to understand the variety. I can see that sometimes necessity could mean other dates are chosen. Do we know the days chosen for the observaace of John 23, JP II and Mother Theresa?


                  Ian Gomersall

                  First Impressions of St C's: 


                  On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...> wrote:
                   


                  As has been pointed out, the date isn't necessarily the heavenly birthday, or date of canonization, or date of translation of relics.  Bl John Henry Newman, for example, is celebrated on the 9 October in the Roman Catholic Church, which was the date of his conversion.  In various Anglican kalendars his feast day is 11 August, which is the date of his heavenly birthday.

                  Sandford MacLean
                  Sent from my iPad

                  On Oct 22, 2013, at 9:02, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                   

                  Usually it is the death day.   Sometimes the day of Canonisation, and many times the date of the transfer of relics. 

                   
                  Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                   
                  +Mar Michael Abportus
                  Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                  204 Sylvan Ave.
                  La Porte, TX 77571


                  From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
                  To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:48 AM
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Canoniztions

                   
                  It can. 
                  It's often (and usually) set on the day of death, but there have been some deviations, especially if the day is impeded. 





                  On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:31 AM, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:

                  I don't think the day of canonisation becomes the saint's day does it? I'm with Scott on this one.

                  Ian



                  On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:
                   
                  I'd guess they'd retain their heavenly birthdays (earthly death days)?


                  On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Douglas Cowling
                  <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                  > "(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis on Monday morning held the Public Ordinary
                  > Consistory for the forthcoming Canonization of Blessed Pope John XXIII
                  > and Blessed Pope John Paul II. During the course of the Consistory in the
                  > Vatican's Consistory Hall, the Pope decreed that his two predecessors will
                  > be raised to Sainthood on April 27, 2014, the day on which the Church
                  > celebrates the Second Sunday of Easter and Divine Mercy."
                  >
                  > Does this mean that they will share a feast day, or retain Oct 11 (JXXII)
                  > and May 1 (JPII)?
                  >
                  > Doug Cowling
                  > Director of Music
                  > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  > Toronto
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Scott R. Knitter
                  Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA







                • Simon Kershaw
                  ... Any particular reason why those dates? John XXIII died on 3 June 1963. According to Exciting Holiness , he is commemorated on 4 June in the calendar of
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 24, 2013
                    On 23/10/2013 13.22, Lewis Whitaker wrote:
                    > John XXIII's date "is on 11 October, the day of the first session of the
                    > Second Vatican Council."
                    >
                    > JP II's is October 22 "the day on which he inaugurated his petrine
                    > ministry"

                    Any particular reason why those dates?

                    John XXIII died on 3 June 1963. According to 'Exciting Holiness', he is
                    commemorated on 4 June in the calendar of the Scottish Episcopal Church,
                    possibly because 3 June is the feast day of Janani Luwum, the Abp of
                    Uganda martyred by Idi Amin in 1977.

                    ('Exciting Holiness' is a semi-official companion to the Sanctorale of
                    the four Anglican churches in Britain; disclaimer: I edited the second
                    and third editions.)

                    simon


                    --
                    Simon Kershaw
                    simon@...
                    Saint Ives, Cambridgeshire
                  • William Renwick
                    Instead of seeking available days, and again falling into the trap of filling up the calendar with saints, I would rather see a re-emergence of the
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 24, 2013
                      Instead of seeking available days, and again falling into the trap of filling up the calendar with saints, I would rather see a re-emergence of the Martirology: so that in addition to whatever saint might take precedence of a given feast day, others who are remembered on the same day might be enshrined in the martirology and thus remembered on the day, if not directly celebrated.


                      On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 21:17:40 +0100
                      Simon Kershaw <simon@...> wrote:
                      > On 23/10/2013 13.22, Lewis Whitaker wrote:
                      > > John XXIII's date "is on 11 October, the day of the first session of the
                      > > Second Vatican Council."
                      > >
                      > > JP II's is October 22 "the day on which he inaugurated his petrine
                      > > ministry"
                      >
                      > Any particular reason why those dates?
                      >
                      > John XXIII died on 3 June 1963. According to 'Exciting Holiness', he is
                      > commemorated on 4 June in the calendar of the Scottish Episcopal Church,
                      > possibly because 3 June is the feast day of Janani Luwum, the Abp of
                      > Uganda martyred by Idi Amin in 1977.
                      >
                      > ('Exciting Holiness' is a semi-official companion to the Sanctorale of
                      > the four Anglican churches in Britain; disclaimer: I edited the second
                      > and third editions.)
                      >
                      > simon
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Simon Kershaw
                      > simon@...
                      > Saint Ives, Cambridgeshire

                      William Renwick
                      renwick@...
                      School of the Arts
                      McMaster University
                      Hamilton Ontario CANADA L8S 4M2 http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~renwick/wr.htm
                    • Ian Gomersall
                      Thanks for giving the dates and reasons. Ian *Ian Gomersall* *When is the best time for coffee? *
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 10, 2013
                        Thanks for giving the dates and reasons.

                        Ian




                        On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
                         

                        John XXIII's date "is on 11 October, the day of the first session of the Second Vatican Council."

                        JP II's is October 22 "the day on which he inaugurated his petrine ministry"


                        On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 5:57 AM, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:


                        Very interesting to understand the variety. I can see that sometimes necessity could mean other dates are chosen. Do we know the days chosen for the observaace of John 23, JP II and Mother Theresa?


                        Ian Gomersall

                        First Impressions of St C's: 


                        On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...> wrote:
                         


                        As has been pointed out, the date isn't necessarily the heavenly birthday, or date of canonization, or date of translation of relics.  Bl John Henry Newman, for example, is celebrated on the 9 October in the Roman Catholic Church, which was the date of his conversion.  In various Anglican kalendars his feast day is 11 August, which is the date of his heavenly birthday.

                        Sandford MacLean
                        Sent from my iPad

                        On Oct 22, 2013, at 9:02, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                         

                        Usually it is the death day.   Sometimes the day of Canonisation, and many times the date of the transfer of relics. 

                         
                        Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                         
                        +Mar Michael Abportus
                        Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                        204 Sylvan Ave.
                        La Porte, TX 77571


                        From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
                        To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:48 AM
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Canoniztions

                         
                        It can. 
                        It's often (and usually) set on the day of death, but there have been some deviations, especially if the day is impeded. 





                        On Oct 22, 2013, at 5:31 AM, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:

                        I don't think the day of canonisation becomes the saint's day does it? I'm with Scott on this one.

                        Ian



                        On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 4:36 PM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:
                         
                        I'd guess they'd retain their heavenly birthdays (earthly death days)?


                        On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Douglas Cowling
                        <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                        > "(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis on Monday morning held the Public Ordinary
                        > Consistory for the forthcoming Canonization of Blessed Pope John XXIII
                        > and Blessed Pope John Paul II. During the course of the Consistory in the
                        > Vatican's Consistory Hall, the Pope decreed that his two predecessors will
                        > be raised to Sainthood on April 27, 2014, the day on which the Church
                        > celebrates the Second Sunday of Easter and Divine Mercy."
                        >
                        > Does this mean that they will share a feast day, or retain Oct 11 (JXXII)
                        > and May 1 (JPII)?
                        >
                        > Doug Cowling
                        > Director of Music
                        > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                        > Toronto
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Scott R. Knitter
                        Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA








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