Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

Expand Messages
  • wx5116
    What you describe is certainly the case of the Ordinariate in North America, i.e., the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter. BTW, the military
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 20 3:18 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      What you describe is certainly the case of the Ordinariate in North America, i.e., the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter.
       
      BTW, the military archdiocese is of personal ordinariate status, particularly because it is within the Latin Rite but nongeographical v/v the local dioceses.  They have an archbishop and other bishops, but recall that they were erected from a different historical perspective.  They do not have cathedrals.
       
      David
       
      ---------------------------
      David Lewis
      Arlington VA USA
      dlewisaao@...
       
      In a message dated 8/20/2013 6:08:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, d.a.waller@... writes:


      Individuals in many areas of church life can be guilty of "loose talk". There is no official talk of cathedrals.

      As far as I know, the only priests using pontificals are the ordinaries of the 3 ordinariates. This is not a new situation in so far as the rubrics state that those who are equivalent in law to bishops are to dress as bishops. An example would be an abbot.

      There are other former Anglican bishops, both in the ordinariates and dioceses, who have been made monsignori and these are lesser prelates but they dress according to their rank and do not use pontificals.

      Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
      From: Douglas Cowling
      Sent: Tuesday, 20 August 2013 22:46
      To: Liturgy-Well-Done
      Reply To: < /b>liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

       

      From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

      The Ordinariates are understood as a part of the Latin Rite. They are not a ritual church. Unlike the Uniates, which are eastern rite Christians in full communion with the Holy See, the Ord inariates are an attempt to receive into full communion those whose origins lie in a schism within the Western Rite. 


      The ecclesiological issue still remains. How can ordinariate members be talking about "pro-cathedrals" as if they expect their ordinary to soon have a cathedra like a diocesan bishop. 

      By the way, how many priests are functioning as prelates with rights to use pontificals in the ordinariates?

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto


    • Douglas Cowling
      From: David Waller Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates? As far as I know, the only priests using pontificals are
      Message 2 of 29 , Aug 20 3:28 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

        As far as I know, the only priests using pontificals are the ordinaries of the 3 ordinariates. This is not a new situation in so far as the rubrics state that those who are equivalent in law to bishops are to dress as bishops. An example would be an abbot.

        There are other former Anglican bishops, both in the ordinariates and dioceses, who have been made monsignori and these are lesser prelates but they dress according to their rank and do not use pontificals.


        There are many monsignori, most notably papal notaries and mitred priests, who used to be able to celebrate with russet-tipped infulae on their mitres and pectoral cross, but not with crozier or ring.  I think these privileges were withdrawn by Paul VI, principally because the monsignori did not have jurisidiction in the same sense as a bishop or abbot.  Are they being revived for the ordinariate prelates?

        Doug Cowling
        Director of Music
        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        Toronto

      • David Waller
        No. They are not. Ordinariate monsignori are exactly the same as other monsignori. The only exceptions are the 3 ordinaries, who like abbots etc have
        Message 3 of 29 , Aug 20 3:59 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          No. They are not. Ordinariate monsignori are exactly the same as other monsignori. The only exceptions are the 3 ordinaries, who like abbots etc have jurisdiction.

          Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
          From: Douglas Cowling
          Sent: Tuesday, 20 August 2013 23:28
          To: Liturgy-Well-Done
          Reply To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

           

          From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

          As far as I know, the only priests using pontificals are the ordinaries of the 3 ordinariates. This is not a new situa tion in so far as the rubrics state that those who are equivalent in law to bishops are to dress as bishops. An example would be an abbot.

          There are other former Anglican bishops, both in the ordinariates and dioceses, who have been made monsignori and these are lesser prelates but they dress according to their rank and do not use pontificals.


          There are many monsignori, most notably papal notaries and mitred priests, who used to be able to celebrate with russet-tipped infulae on their mitres and pectoral cross, but not with crozier or ring.  I think these privileges were withdrawn by Paul VI, principally because the monsignori did not have jurisidiction in the same sense as a bishop or abbot.  Are they being revived for the ordinariate prelates?

          Doug Cowling
          Director of Music
          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
          Toronto


        • wx5116
          They are both personal ordinariates. The precedent of the military ordinariate(s) and one or more other ordinariates (my memory escapes me but they probably
          Message 4 of 29 , Aug 20 5:43 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            They are both personal ordinariates.  The precedent of the military ordinariate(s) and one or more other ordinariates (my memory escapes me but they probably related to a specific religious order or two) was used in setting up the Anglican-derived ordinariates.  All are within the Latin Rite.  The Anglican-derived ordinariates have their own special apostolic constitution, which I would presume would also be the case in the earlier erected ordinariates.
             
            David
             
            ---------------------------
            David Lewis
            Arlington VA USA
            dlewisaao@...
             
            In a message dated 8/20/2013 7:13:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cowling.douglas@... writes:


            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

            My impression is that the archbishop of the military services (USA) across the river in DC does not have a cathedral because his jurisdiction is extraterritorial v/v Latin Rite dioceses.  This would be parallel to the situation with the Ordinariates. 
             
            This would be different than for Catholic rites parallel to the Latin Rite, i.e., the Eastern Rites, which would have cathedrals for their bishops and prelates of similar import.


            Is this a private or canonical opinion that ordinariates are comparable to the military ordinariate and not the Uniate rites? I;m assuming the military ordinariate only uses the Latin rite.  The An glican ordinariates, on the other hand, have differences in rite, governance and clerical discipline that make them closer to the Uniate rites.

            Doug Cowling
            Director of Music
            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
            Toronto

          • James
            Doug, I know a Melkite priest who is a retired military chaplain. He is the chaplain of a small ER Convent here in Olympia. I doubt that there are many ER
            Message 5 of 29 , Aug 22 5:30 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Doug, I know a Melkite priest who is a retired military chaplain. He is the chaplain of a small ER Convent here in Olympia.
              I doubt that there are many ER Catholic chaplains abounding.

              Rdr. James Morgan
              Olympia, WA

              --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: <dlewisaao@...>
              > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?
              >
              > My impression is that the archbishop of the military services (USA) across
              > the river in DC does not have a cathedral because his jurisdiction is
              > extraterritorial v/v Latin Rite dioceses. This would be parallel to the
              > situation with the Ordinariates.
              >
              > This would be different than for Catholic rites parallel to the Latin Rite,
              > i.e., the Eastern Rites, which would have cathedrals for their bishops and
              > prelates of similar import.
              >
              >
              > Is this a private or canonical opinion that ordinariates are comparable to
              > the military ordinariate and not the Uniate rites? I;m assuming the military
              > ordinariate only uses the Latin rite. The Anglican ordinariates, on the
              > other hand, have differences in rite, governance and clerical discipline
              > that make them closer to the Uniate rites.
              >
              > Doug Cowling
              > Director of Music
              > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
              > Toronto
              >
            • James
              i remember from ages past, an experienced Irish Catholic priest referring to protonotaries apostolicae as mule bishops .... Rdr. James Morgan
              Message 6 of 29 , Aug 22 5:34 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                i remember from ages past, an experienced Irish Catholic priest referring to protonotaries apostolicae as 'mule bishops'....

                Rdr. James Morgan

                --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?
                >
                > As far as I know, the only priests using pontificals are the ordinaries of
                > the 3 ordinariates. This is not a new situation in so far as the rubrics
                > state that those who are equivalent in law to bishops are to dress as
                > bishops. An example would be an abbot.
                >
                > There are other former Anglican bishops, both in the ordinariates and
                > dioceses, who have been made monsignori and these are lesser prelates but
                > they dress according to their rank and do not use pontificals.
                >
                >
                > There are many monsignori, most notably papal notaries and mitred priests,
                > who used to be able to celebrate with russet-tipped infulae on their mitres
                > and pectoral cross, but not with crozier or ring. I think these privileges
                > were withdrawn by Paul VI, principally because the monsignori did not have
                > jurisidiction in the same sense as a bishop or abbot. Are they being
                > revived for the ordinariate prelates?
                >
                > Doug Cowling
                > Director of Music
                > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                > Toronto
                >
              • wx5116
                Here is what Wikipedia has to say about this topic, beginning with the military ordinariates as a precedent: A military ordinariate is an ecclesiastical
                Message 7 of 29 , Aug 22 5:37 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Here is what Wikipedia has to say about this topic, beginning with the military ordinariates as a precedent:
                   

                  A military ordinariate is an ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Roman Catholic Church, of Latin or Eastern Rite, responsible for the pastoral care of Catholics serving in the armed forces of a nation.

                  Until 1986, they were called "military vicariates" and had a status similar to that apostolic vicariates, which are headed by a bishop who receives his authority by delegation from the Pope. The apostolic constitution Spirituali militum curae of 21 April 1986 raised their status, declaring that the bishop who heads one of them is an "ordinary", holding authority by virtue of his office, and not by delegation from another person in authority. It likened the military vicariates to dioceses. Each of them is headed by a bishop, who may have the personal rank of archbishop. If the bishop is a diocesan rather than a titular bishop, he is likely to delegate the daily functions to an auxiliary bishop or a lower cleric.

                  Some nations have military ordinariates of the Anglican Communion, Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

                  The personal ordinariates for Anglicans entering the Catholic Church announced on 20 October 2009 are similar in some ways to the existing military ordinariates. But the jurisdiction of military ordinariates is cumulative to that of the diocesan bishops.

                   
                  ---------------------------
                  David Lewis
                  Arlington VA USA
                  dlewisaao@...
                   
                  In a message dated 8/22/2013 8:31:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rdrjames@... writes:
                  Doug, I know a Melkite priest who is a retired military chaplain. He is the chaplain of a small ER Convent here in Olympia.
                  I doubt that there are many ER Catholic chaplains abounding.

                  Rdr. James Morgan
                  Olympia, WA

                  --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From:  <dlewisaao@...>
                  > Subject:  Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?
                  >
                  > My impression is that the archbishop of the military services (USA) across
                  > the river in DC does not have a cathedral because his jurisdiction is
                  > extraterritorial v/v Latin Rite dioceses.  This would be parallel to the
                  > situation with the Ordinariates.

                  > This would be different than for Catholic rites parallel to the Latin Rite,
                  > i.e., the Eastern Rites, which would have cathedrals for their bishops and
                  > prelates of similar import.
                  >
                  >
                  > Is this a private or canonical opinion that ordinariates are comparable to
                  > the military ordinariate and not the Uniate rites? I;m assuming the military
                  > ordinariate only uses the Latin rite.  The Anglican ordinariates, on the
                  > other hand, have differences in rite, governance and clerical discipline
                  > that make them closer to the Uniate rites.
                  >
                  > Doug Cowling
                  > Director of Music
                  > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  > Toronto
                  >




                  ------------------------------------

                  Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/

                  <*> Your email settings:
                      Individual Email | Traditional

                  <*> To change settings online go to:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/join
                      (Yahoo! ID required)

                  <*> To change settings via email:
                      liturgy-l-digest@yahoogroups.com
                      liturgy-l-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.