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Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

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  • David Waller
    Individuals in many areas of church life can be guilty of loose talk . There is no official talk of cathedrals. As far as I know, the only priests using
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 20, 2013
      Individuals in many areas of church life can be guilty of "loose talk". There is no official talk of cathedrals.

      As far as I know, the only priests using pontificals are the ordinaries of the 3 ordinariates. This is not a new situation in so far as the rubrics state that those who are equivalent in law to bishops are to dress as bishops. An example would be an abbot.

      There are other former Anglican bishops, both in the ordinariates and dioceses, who have been made monsignori and these are lesser prelates but they dress according to their rank and do not use pontificals.

      Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
      From: Douglas Cowling
      Sent: Tuesday, 20 August 2013 22:46
      To: Liturgy-Well-Done
      Reply To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

       

      From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

      The Ordinariates are understood as a part of the Latin Rite. They are not a ritual church. Unlike the Uniates, which are eastern rite Christians in full communion with the Holy See, the Ord inariates are an attempt to receive into full communion those whose origins lie in a schism within the Western Rite. 


      The ecclesiological issue still remains. How can ordinariate members be talking about "pro-cathedrals" as if they expect their ordinary to soon have a cathedra like a diocesan bishop. 

      By the way, how many priests are functioning as prelates with rights to use pontificals in the ordinariates?

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto


    • wx5116
      What you describe is certainly the case of the Ordinariate in North America, i.e., the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter. BTW, the military
      Message 2 of 29 , Aug 20, 2013
        What you describe is certainly the case of the Ordinariate in North America, i.e., the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter.
         
        BTW, the military archdiocese is of personal ordinariate status, particularly because it is within the Latin Rite but nongeographical v/v the local dioceses.  They have an archbishop and other bishops, but recall that they were erected from a different historical perspective.  They do not have cathedrals.
         
        David
         
        ---------------------------
        David Lewis
        Arlington VA USA
        dlewisaao@...
         
        In a message dated 8/20/2013 6:08:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, d.a.waller@... writes:


        Individuals in many areas of church life can be guilty of "loose talk". There is no official talk of cathedrals.

        As far as I know, the only priests using pontificals are the ordinaries of the 3 ordinariates. This is not a new situation in so far as the rubrics state that those who are equivalent in law to bishops are to dress as bishops. An example would be an abbot.

        There are other former Anglican bishops, both in the ordinariates and dioceses, who have been made monsignori and these are lesser prelates but they dress according to their rank and do not use pontificals.

        Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
        From: Douglas Cowling
        Sent: Tuesday, 20 August 2013 22:46
        To: Liturgy-Well-Done
        Reply To: < /b>liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

         

        From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

        The Ordinariates are understood as a part of the Latin Rite. They are not a ritual church. Unlike the Uniates, which are eastern rite Christians in full communion with the Holy See, the Ord inariates are an attempt to receive into full communion those whose origins lie in a schism within the Western Rite. 


        The ecclesiological issue still remains. How can ordinariate members be talking about "pro-cathedrals" as if they expect their ordinary to soon have a cathedra like a diocesan bishop. 

        By the way, how many priests are functioning as prelates with rights to use pontificals in the ordinariates?

        Doug Cowling
        Director of Music
        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        Toronto


      • Douglas Cowling
        From: David Waller Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates? As far as I know, the only priests using pontificals are
        Message 3 of 29 , Aug 20, 2013
          From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

          As far as I know, the only priests using pontificals are the ordinaries of the 3 ordinariates. This is not a new situation in so far as the rubrics state that those who are equivalent in law to bishops are to dress as bishops. An example would be an abbot.

          There are other former Anglican bishops, both in the ordinariates and dioceses, who have been made monsignori and these are lesser prelates but they dress according to their rank and do not use pontificals.


          There are many monsignori, most notably papal notaries and mitred priests, who used to be able to celebrate with russet-tipped infulae on their mitres and pectoral cross, but not with crozier or ring.  I think these privileges were withdrawn by Paul VI, principally because the monsignori did not have jurisidiction in the same sense as a bishop or abbot.  Are they being revived for the ordinariate prelates?

          Doug Cowling
          Director of Music
          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
          Toronto

        • David Waller
          No. They are not. Ordinariate monsignori are exactly the same as other monsignori. The only exceptions are the 3 ordinaries, who like abbots etc have
          Message 4 of 29 , Aug 20, 2013
            No. They are not. Ordinariate monsignori are exactly the same as other monsignori. The only exceptions are the 3 ordinaries, who like abbots etc have jurisdiction.

            Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
            From: Douglas Cowling
            Sent: Tuesday, 20 August 2013 23:28
            To: Liturgy-Well-Done
            Reply To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

             

            From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

            As far as I know, the only priests using pontificals are the ordinaries of the 3 ordinariates. This is not a new situa tion in so far as the rubrics state that those who are equivalent in law to bishops are to dress as bishops. An example would be an abbot.

            There are other former Anglican bishops, both in the ordinariates and dioceses, who have been made monsignori and these are lesser prelates but they dress according to their rank and do not use pontificals.


            There are many monsignori, most notably papal notaries and mitred priests, who used to be able to celebrate with russet-tipped infulae on their mitres and pectoral cross, but not with crozier or ring.  I think these privileges were withdrawn by Paul VI, principally because the monsignori did not have jurisidiction in the same sense as a bishop or abbot.  Are they being revived for the ordinariate prelates?

            Doug Cowling
            Director of Music
            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
            Toronto


          • wx5116
            They are both personal ordinariates. The precedent of the military ordinariate(s) and one or more other ordinariates (my memory escapes me but they probably
            Message 5 of 29 , Aug 20, 2013
              They are both personal ordinariates.  The precedent of the military ordinariate(s) and one or more other ordinariates (my memory escapes me but they probably related to a specific religious order or two) was used in setting up the Anglican-derived ordinariates.  All are within the Latin Rite.  The Anglican-derived ordinariates have their own special apostolic constitution, which I would presume would also be the case in the earlier erected ordinariates.
               
              David
               
              ---------------------------
              David Lewis
              Arlington VA USA
              dlewisaao@...
               
              In a message dated 8/20/2013 7:13:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cowling.douglas@... writes:


              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?

              My impression is that the archbishop of the military services (USA) across the river in DC does not have a cathedral because his jurisdiction is extraterritorial v/v Latin Rite dioceses.  This would be parallel to the situation with the Ordinariates. 
               
              This would be different than for Catholic rites parallel to the Latin Rite, i.e., the Eastern Rites, which would have cathedrals for their bishops and prelates of similar import.


              Is this a private or canonical opinion that ordinariates are comparable to the military ordinariate and not the Uniate rites? I;m assuming the military ordinariate only uses the Latin rite.  The An glican ordinariates, on the other hand, have differences in rite, governance and clerical discipline that make them closer to the Uniate rites.

              Doug Cowling
              Director of Music
              St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
              Toronto

            • James
              Doug, I know a Melkite priest who is a retired military chaplain. He is the chaplain of a small ER Convent here in Olympia. I doubt that there are many ER
              Message 6 of 29 , Aug 22, 2013
                Doug, I know a Melkite priest who is a retired military chaplain. He is the chaplain of a small ER Convent here in Olympia.
                I doubt that there are many ER Catholic chaplains abounding.

                Rdr. James Morgan
                Olympia, WA

                --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: <dlewisaao@...>
                > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?
                >
                > My impression is that the archbishop of the military services (USA) across
                > the river in DC does not have a cathedral because his jurisdiction is
                > extraterritorial v/v Latin Rite dioceses. This would be parallel to the
                > situation with the Ordinariates.
                >
                > This would be different than for Catholic rites parallel to the Latin Rite,
                > i.e., the Eastern Rites, which would have cathedrals for their bishops and
                > prelates of similar import.
                >
                >
                > Is this a private or canonical opinion that ordinariates are comparable to
                > the military ordinariate and not the Uniate rites? I;m assuming the military
                > ordinariate only uses the Latin rite. The Anglican ordinariates, on the
                > other hand, have differences in rite, governance and clerical discipline
                > that make them closer to the Uniate rites.
                >
                > Doug Cowling
                > Director of Music
                > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                > Toronto
                >
              • James
                i remember from ages past, an experienced Irish Catholic priest referring to protonotaries apostolicae as mule bishops .... Rdr. James Morgan
                Message 7 of 29 , Aug 22, 2013
                  i remember from ages past, an experienced Irish Catholic priest referring to protonotaries apostolicae as 'mule bishops'....

                  Rdr. James Morgan

                  --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?
                  >
                  > As far as I know, the only priests using pontificals are the ordinaries of
                  > the 3 ordinariates. This is not a new situation in so far as the rubrics
                  > state that those who are equivalent in law to bishops are to dress as
                  > bishops. An example would be an abbot.
                  >
                  > There are other former Anglican bishops, both in the ordinariates and
                  > dioceses, who have been made monsignori and these are lesser prelates but
                  > they dress according to their rank and do not use pontificals.
                  >
                  >
                  > There are many monsignori, most notably papal notaries and mitred priests,
                  > who used to be able to celebrate with russet-tipped infulae on their mitres
                  > and pectoral cross, but not with crozier or ring. I think these privileges
                  > were withdrawn by Paul VI, principally because the monsignori did not have
                  > jurisidiction in the same sense as a bishop or abbot. Are they being
                  > revived for the ordinariate prelates?
                  >
                  > Doug Cowling
                  > Director of Music
                  > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  > Toronto
                  >
                • wx5116
                  Here is what Wikipedia has to say about this topic, beginning with the military ordinariates as a precedent: A military ordinariate is an ecclesiastical
                  Message 8 of 29 , Aug 22, 2013
                    Here is what Wikipedia has to say about this topic, beginning with the military ordinariates as a precedent:
                     

                    A military ordinariate is an ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Roman Catholic Church, of Latin or Eastern Rite, responsible for the pastoral care of Catholics serving in the armed forces of a nation.

                    Until 1986, they were called "military vicariates" and had a status similar to that apostolic vicariates, which are headed by a bishop who receives his authority by delegation from the Pope. The apostolic constitution Spirituali militum curae of 21 April 1986 raised their status, declaring that the bishop who heads one of them is an "ordinary", holding authority by virtue of his office, and not by delegation from another person in authority. It likened the military vicariates to dioceses. Each of them is headed by a bishop, who may have the personal rank of archbishop. If the bishop is a diocesan rather than a titular bishop, he is likely to delegate the daily functions to an auxiliary bishop or a lower cleric.

                    Some nations have military ordinariates of the Anglican Communion, Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

                    The personal ordinariates for Anglicans entering the Catholic Church announced on 20 October 2009 are similar in some ways to the existing military ordinariates. But the jurisdiction of military ordinariates is cumulative to that of the diocesan bishops.

                     
                    ---------------------------
                    David Lewis
                    Arlington VA USA
                    dlewisaao@...
                     
                    In a message dated 8/22/2013 8:31:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rdrjames@... writes:
                    Doug, I know a Melkite priest who is a retired military chaplain. He is the chaplain of a small ER Convent here in Olympia.
                    I doubt that there are many ER Catholic chaplains abounding.

                    Rdr. James Morgan
                    Olympia, WA

                    --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From:  <dlewisaao@...>
                    > Subject:  Re: [liturgy-l] Cathedrals for Ordinariates?
                    >
                    > My impression is that the archbishop of the military services (USA) across
                    > the river in DC does not have a cathedral because his jurisdiction is
                    > extraterritorial v/v Latin Rite dioceses.  This would be parallel to the
                    > situation with the Ordinariates.

                    > This would be different than for Catholic rites parallel to the Latin Rite,
                    > i.e., the Eastern Rites, which would have cathedrals for their bishops and
                    > prelates of similar import.
                    >
                    >
                    > Is this a private or canonical opinion that ordinariates are comparable to
                    > the military ordinariate and not the Uniate rites? I;m assuming the military
                    > ordinariate only uses the Latin rite.  The Anglican ordinariates, on the
                    > other hand, have differences in rite, governance and clerical discipline
                    > that make them closer to the Uniate rites.
                    >
                    > Doug Cowling
                    > Director of Music
                    > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                    > Toronto
                    >




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