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Re: [liturgy-l] Papal Liturgies

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  • Lewis Whitaker
    Father Zed s going to have a coronary..... On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Douglas Cowling
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 2, 2013
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      Father Zed's going to have a coronary.....


      On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
      Interesting to look at the papal liturgies in Brazil:

      http://tinyurl.com/kkfhchb


      Not a word of Latin in the big Aparaceida mass.  My Portuguese is minimal,
      but this don't look like an rigorist translation of the "Dominus vobiscum"
      to me:

      O Senhor esteja convosco.


      Ele estano meio de nos.

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto









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    • Scott Knitter
      ... Wouldn t he want to be faithful to the Holy Father no matter who that is? -- Scott R. Knitter Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 3, 2013
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        On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
        Father Zed's going to have a coronary....

        Wouldn't he want to be faithful to the Holy Father no matter who that is?


        --
        Scott R. Knitter
        Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
      • Lewis Whitaker
        weeeeeeelll......Not when the Holy Father does things he doesn t like. Traditionalists are funny like that.
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 3, 2013
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          weeeeeeelll......Not when the Holy Father does things he doesn't like.

          Traditionalists are funny like that.



          On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:



          On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
          Father Zed's going to have a coronary....

          Wouldn't he want to be faithful to the Holy Father no matter who that is?


          --
          Scott R. Knitter
          Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA



        • David J Strang
          Is it heresy to continue to be uncomfortable with the present Pontiff whom I view somewhat as a loose cannon, and already a little nostalgic for the pontifical
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 3, 2013
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            Is it heresy to continue to be uncomfortable with the present Pontiff whom I view somewhat as
            a loose cannon, and already a little nostalgic for the pontifical style of Benedict XVI?
             
            I liked Benedict's high church liturgical style, and I seemed more to know where he was
            coming from in his liturgical/musical preferences.  I think I was Bavarian in another life.
            I've worshipped via the splendors of his brother's choir at Regensburg Cathedral.  I have
            no such connection with Francis.
             
            I know Francis has his work cut out for him, and I wish him well in sweeping the cobwebs
            out of the Vatican.  If he could only throw in/wear a gold mitre or two now and then!
             
             
            David Strang.

            From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
            To: Liturgy-L <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 10:31 AM
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Papal Liturgies
             
            weeeeeeelll......Not when the Holy Father does things he doesn't like.
            Traditionalists are funny like that.
            On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:
            On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
            Father Zed's going to have a coronary....
            Wouldn't he want to be faithful to the Holy Father no matter who that is?

            -- Scott R. Knitter Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
          • wx5116
            They do come from different locales with different nuances, which one would expect. We should also expect different areas of emphasis from one pope to
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 3, 2013
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              They do come from different locales with different nuances, which one would expect.  We should also expect different areas of emphasis from one pope to another, while (as is still the case here) not changing the substance of the faith.  Similarly, we seem to find different areas of emphasis among the various bishops and pastors.
               
              David
               
              ---------------------------
              David Lewis
              Arlington VA USA
              dlewisaao@...
               
              In a message dated 8/3/2013 11:02:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, davidjstrang@... writes:


              Is it heresy to continue to be uncomfortable with the present Pontiff whom I view somewhat as
              a loose cannon, and already a little nostalgic for the pontifical style of Benedict XVI?
               
              I liked Benedict's high church liturgical style, and I seemed more to know where he was
              coming from in his liturgical/musical preferences.  I think I was Bavarian in another life.
              I've worshipped via the splendors of his brother's choir at Regensburg Cathedral.  I have
              no such connection with Francis.
               
              I know Francis has his work cut out for him, and I wish him well in sweeping the cobwebs
              out of the Vatican.  If he could only throw in/wear a gold mitre or two now and then!
               
               
              David Strang.

              From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
              To: Liturgy-L <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 10:31 AM
              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Papal Liturgies
               
              weeeeeeelll......Not when the Holy Father does things he doesn't like.
              Traditionalists are funny like that.
              On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:
              On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
              Father Zed's going to have a coronary....
              Wouldn't he want to be faithful to the Holy Father no matter who that is?

              -- Scott R. Knitter Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
            • Lewis Whitaker
              Am I the Vicar of Christ, or Am I Not? Seems a little lacking to prefer one pope (who quit, btw) just because he wears more gold lame and Prada slippers. Lew
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 3, 2013
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                "Am I the Vicar of Christ, or Am I Not?"

                Seems a little lacking to prefer one pope (who quit, btw) just because he wears more gold lame and Prada slippers.

                Lew


                On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 11:02 AM, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:


                Is it heresy to continue to be uncomfortable with the present Pontiff whom I view somewhat as
                a loose cannon, and already a little nostalgic for the pontifical style of Benedict XVI?
                 
                I liked Benedict's high church liturgical style, and I seemed more to know where he was
                coming from in his liturgical/musical preferences.  I think I was Bavarian in another life.
                I've worshipped via the splendors of his brother's choir at Regensburg Cathedral.  I have
                no such connection with Francis.
                 
                I know Francis has his work cut out for him, and I wish him well in sweeping the cobwebs
                out of the Vatican.  If he could only throw in/wear a gold mitre or two now and then!
                 
                 
                David Strang.

                From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
                To: Liturgy-L <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 10:31 AM
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Papal Liturgies
                 
                weeeeeeelll......Not when the Holy Father does things he doesn't like.
                Traditionalists are funny like that.
                On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:
                On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
                Father Zed's going to have a coronary....
                Wouldn't he want to be faithful to the Holy Father no matter who that is?

                -- Scott R. KnitterEdgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA



              • Douglas Cowling
                From: David J Strang Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Papal Liturgies Is it heresy to continue to be uncomfortable with the present Pontiff
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 3, 2013
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                  From: David J Strang <davidjstrang@...>
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Papal Liturgies

                  Is it heresy to continue to be uncomfortable with the present Pontiff whom I view somewhat as
                  a loose cannon, and already a little nostalgic for the pontifical style of Benedict XVI?


                  It's been noted by a number of liturgical observers that Francis always celebrates mass as if it's a parish mass.  Ordinary in all three senses.

                  Interesting decision:


                  'Pope Restricts Use of 1962 Missal for Some Franciscans'

                  "Sandro Magister is billing it as the first time Francis has contradicted Benedict. There are these Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, who appear to be traditionalist-leaning in terms of celebration of Mass in the unreformed pre-Vatican II form with the missal of 1962. And there seems to have been some sort of difficulties among them, such that an apostolic visitation was carried out a year ago. Now a commissioner has been appointed to oversee the group.

                  In a decree issued shortly before Francis went to Brazil, the use of reformed rite is in the order presented as the norm, and the “occasional” use of the old rite requires special permission. This is significant because Pope Benedict allowed unrestricted use of the old rite to every priest in 2007 with the document Summorum pontificum, with no further special permission required.

                  Magister writes:

                  “The Holy Father Francis has directed that every religious of the congregation of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate is required to celebrate the liturgy according to the ordinary rite and that, if the occasion should arise, the use of the extraordinary form (Vetus Ordo) must be explicitly authorized by the competent authorities, for every religious and/or community that makes the request.”

                  You have to be careful when reading Magister, whose reports are not lacking in speculation and rumors and tendentious interpretations at times. But his report on what the decree says is still helpful and interesting.

                  It’s hard to know the whole story here. Is this decree a reflection of Pope Francis’ desire to undercut Summorum? Or it is a unique case, tied to particular turmoil in one religious order?"

                  The Franciscans sound like squabbling Anglicans!

                  Doug Cowling
                  Director of Music
                  St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  Toronto


                • Lewis Whitaker
                  Oh, I think he ll deal with them, too! On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Douglas Cowling
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 3, 2013
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                    Oh, I think he'll deal with them, too!



                    On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                    The Franciscans sound like squabbling Anglicans!

                    Doug Cowling
                    Director of Music
                    St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                    Toronto





                  • wx5116
                    From what I ve read, there is a particular problem within this Franciscan order that required such a permission system to use the EF. David ... David Lewis
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 3, 2013
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                      From what I've read, there is a particular problem within this Franciscan order that required such a permission system to use the EF.
                       
                      David
                       
                      ---------------------------
                      David Lewis
                      Arlington VA USA
                      dlewisaao@...
                       
                      In a message dated 8/3/2013 11:29:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cowling.douglas@... writes:


                      From: David J Strang <davidjstrang@...>
                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Papal Liturgies

                      Is it heresy to continue to be uncomfortable with the present Pontiff whom I view somewhat as
                      a loose cannon, and already a little nostalgic for the pontifical style of Benedict XVI?


                      It's been noted by a number of liturgical observers that Francis always celebrates mass as if it's a parish mass.  Ordinary in all three senses.

                      Interesting decision:


                      'Pope Restricts Use of 1962 Missal for Some Franciscans'

                      "Sandro Magister is billing it as the first time Francis has contradicted Benedict. There are these Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, who appear to be traditionalist-leaning in terms of celebration of Mass in the unreformed pre-Vatican II form with the missal of 1962. And there seems to have been some sort of difficulties among them, such that an apostolic visitation was carried out a year ago. Now a commissioner has been appointed to oversee the group.

                      In a decree issued shortly before Francis went to Brazil, the use of reformed rite is in the order presented as the norm, and the “occasional” use of the old rite requires special permission. This is significant because Pope Benedict allowed unrestricted use of the old rite to every priest in 2007 with the document Summorum pontificum, with no further special permission required.

                      Magister writes:

                      “The Holy Father Francis has directed that every religious of the congregation of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate is required to celebrate the liturgy according to the ordinary rite and that, if the occasion should arise, the use of the extraordinary form (Vetus Ordo) must be explicitly authorized by the competent authorities, for every religious and/or community that makes the request.”

                      You have to be careful when reading Magister, whose reports are not lacking in speculation and rumors and tendentious interpretations at times. But his report on what the decree says is still helpful and interesting.

                      It’s hard to know the whole story here. Is this decree a reflection of Pope Francis’ desire to undercut Summorum? Or it is a unique case, tied to particular turmoil in one religious order?"

                      The Franciscans sound like squabbling Anglicans!

                      Doug Cowling
                      Director of Music
                      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                      Toronto


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