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NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey

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  • Douglas Cowling
    I wonder,if they brought an altar-stone ... http://tinyurl.com/n2es4ct Doug Cowling Director of Music St. Philip s Church, Etobicoke Toronto
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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      I wonder,if they brought an altar-stone ...

      http://tinyurl.com/n2es4ct


      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto
    • Sandford MacLean
      No need for an altar stone, Doug, as the shrine altar is the site of the Saint s relics. Sandford MacLean Sent from my iPhone
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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        No need for an altar stone, Doug, as the shrine altar is the site of the Saint's relics.

        Sandford MacLean

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:36, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

         

        I wonder,if they brought an altar-stone ...

        http://tinyurl.com/n2es4ct

        Doug Cowling
        Director of Music
        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        Toronto

      • Douglas Cowling
        From: Sandford MacLean Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey No need for an altar stone,
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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          From: Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...>
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey

          No need for an altar stone, Doug, as the shrine altar is the site of the Saint's relics.

          But the chalice and paten must rest on an altar stone and there sure ain't one on that altar.

          Viz. the last chapter of 'Brideshead Revisited.'
        • Sandford MacLean
          Is an altar stone required when the altar is right on top or part of a reliquary? Surely that is what the Shrine of St Edward the Confessor is. Sandford
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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            Is an altar stone required when the altar is right on top or part of a reliquary?  Surely that is what the Shrine of St Edward the Confessor is.

            Sandford MacLean

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Jul 24, 2013, at 13:37, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

             

            From: Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...>
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey

            No need for an altar stone, Doug, as the shrine altar is the site of the Saint's relics.

            But the chalice and paten must rest on an altar stone and there sure ain't one on that altar.

            Viz. the last chapter of 'Brideshead Revisited.'

          • Lewis Whitaker
            It s not on top of the reliquary. It s at the end of the reliquary.
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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              It's not on top of the reliquary. It's at the end of the reliquary.


              On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...> wrote:


              Is an altar stone required when the altar is right on top or part of a reliquary?  Surely that is what the Shrine of St Edward the Confessor is.

              Sandford MacLean

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jul 24, 2013, at 13:37, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

               

              From: Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...>
              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey

              No need for an altar stone, Doug, as the shrine altar is the site of the Saint's relics.

              But the chalice and paten must rest on an altar stone and there sure ain't one on that altar.

              Viz. the last chapter of 'Brideshead Revisited.'




            • Douglas Cowling
              From: Sandford MacLean Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey Is an altar stone required
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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                From: Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...>
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey

                Is an altar stone required when the altar is right on top or part of a reliquary?  Surely that is what the Shrine of St Edward the Confessor is.


                I'll bet that no self-respecting extaordinista would celebrate mass on an Anglican Table without a portable altar stone.

                They've closed the chapel at Brideshead, Bridey and the Bishop; Mummy's requiem was the last mass said there. After she was buried the priest came in - I was there alone. I don't think he saw me - and took out the altar stone and put it in his bag; then he burned the wads of wool with the holy oil on them and threw the ash outside; he emptied the holy water stoup and blew out the lamp in the sanctuary and left the tabernacle open and empty, as though from now on it was always to be Good Friday. I suppose none of this makes any sense to you, Charles, poor agnostic. I stayed there till he was gone, and then, suddenly there wasn't any chapel there any more, just an oddly decorated room. I can't tell you what it felt like.”  Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited

                Doug Cowling
                Director of Music
                St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                Toronto

              • Sandford MacLean
                Doug, The Requiem was celebrated on the relics of a saint canonised by the Pope in 1161. I doubt that would be a problem. Sandford Sent from my iPhone ...
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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                  Doug,

                  The Requiem was celebrated on the relics of a saint canonised by the Pope in 1161.  I doubt that would be a problem.

                  Sandford 

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On Jul 24, 2013, at 14:50, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                   

                  From: Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...>
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey

                  Is an altar stone required when the altar is right on top or part of a reliquary?  Surely that is what the Shrine of St Edward the Confessor is.


                  I'll bet that no self-respecting extaordinista would celebrate mass on an Anglican Table without a portable altar stone.

                  They've closed the chapel at Brideshead, Bridey and the Bishop; Mummy's requiem was the last mass said there. After she was buried the priest came in - I was there alone. I don't think he saw me - and took out the altar stone and put it in his bag; then he burned the wads of wool with the holy oil on them and threw the ash outside; he emptied the holy water stoup and blew out the lamp in the sanctuary and left the tabernacle open and empty, as though from now on it was always to be Good Friday. I suppose none of this makes any sense to you, Charles, poor agnostic. I stayed there till he was gone, and then, suddenly there wasn't any chapel there any more, just an oddly decorated room. I can't tell you what it felt like.”  Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited

                  Doug Cowling
                  Director of Music
                  St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  Toronto

                • Lewis Whitaker
                  If you would look at the pictures, Sandford, you will see that the altar is not *on* the relics. It s against the relics. It s rather plain to see from the
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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                    If you would look at the pictures, Sandford, you will see that the altar is not *on* the relics. It's against the relics. It's rather plain to see from the photos. If the EF'ers didn't bring a stone with them, then it was not "on the relics of a saint canonised by the Pope in 1161."


                    On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...> wrote:


                    Doug,

                    The Requiem was celebrated on the relics of a saint canonised by the Pope in 1161.  I doubt that would be a problem.

                    Sandford 

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Jul 24, 2013, at 14:50, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                     

                    From: Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...>
                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey

                    Is an altar stone required when the altar is right on top or part of a reliquary?  Surely that is what the Shrine of St Edward the Confessor is.


                    I'll bet that no self-respecting extaordinista would celebrate mass on an Anglican Table without a portable altar stone.

                    They've closed the chapel at Brideshead, Bridey and the Bishop; Mummy's requiem was the last mass said there. After she was buried the priest came in - I was there alone. I don't think he saw me - and took out the altar stone and put it in his bag; then he burned the wads of wool with the holy oil on them and threw the ash outside; he emptied the holy water stoup and blew out the lamp in the sanctuary and left the tabernacle open and empty, as though from now on it was always to be Good Friday. I suppose none of this makes any sense to you, Charles, poor agnostic. I stayed there till he was gone, and then, suddenly there wasn't any chapel there any more, just an oddly decorated room. I can't tell you what it felt like.”  Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited

                    Doug Cowling
                    Director of Music
                    St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                    Toronto




                  • Simon Kershaw
                    ... Actually, the body of the saint and king is atop the shrine-tomb, in the wooden feretory. I ll let those even more pedantic than I am (wow -- there are
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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                      On 24/07/2013 20.02, Lewis Whitaker wrote:
                      > If you would look at the pictures, Sandford, you will see that the altar is
                      > not*on* the relics. It's against the relics. It's rather plain to see from
                      > the photos. If the EF'ers didn't bring a stone with them, then it was not
                      > "on the relics of a saint canonised by the Pope in 1161."

                      Actually, the body of the saint and king is atop the shrine-tomb, in the
                      wooden feretory.

                      I'll let those even more pedantic than I am (wow -- there are some such
                      people!) decide whether that counts for these purposes. I'd have thought
                      it pretty clearly in accordance with ancient practice.

                      simon

                      --
                      Simon Kershaw
                      simon@...
                      Saint Ives, Cambridgeshire
                    • Lewis Whitaker
                      Apparently, the Latins are discussing this on Facebook. Mass celebrated on desecrated altars. O tempora! O mores! https://www.facebook.com/TheLatinMass Lew
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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                        Apparently, the Latins are discussing this on Facebook. Mass celebrated on "desecrated altars." O tempora! O mores!

                        https://www.facebook.com/TheLatinMass

                        Lew




                        On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
                        If you would look at the pictures, Sandford, you will see that the altar is not *on* the relics. It's against the relics. It's rather plain to see from the photos. If the EF'ers didn't bring a stone with them, then it was not "on the relics of a saint canonised by the Pope in 1161."


                        On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...> wrote:


                        Doug,

                        The Requiem was celebrated on the relics of a saint canonised by the Pope in 1161.  I doubt that would be a problem.

                        Sandford 

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On Jul 24, 2013, at 14:50, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                         

                        From: Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...>
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey

                        Is an altar stone required when the altar is right on top or part of a reliquary?  Surely that is what the Shrine of St Edward the Confessor is.


                        I'll bet that no self-respecting extaordinista would celebrate mass on an Anglican Table without a portable altar stone.

                        They've closed the chapel at Brideshead, Bridey and the Bishop; Mummy's requiem was the last mass said there. After she was buried the priest came in - I was there alone. I don't think he saw me - and took out the altar stone and put it in his bag; then he burned the wads of wool with the holy oil on them and threw the ash outside; he emptied the holy water stoup and blew out the lamp in the sanctuary and left the tabernacle open and empty, as though from now on it was always to be Good Friday. I suppose none of this makes any sense to you, Charles, poor agnostic. I stayed there till he was gone, and then, suddenly there wasn't any chapel there any more, just an oddly decorated room. I can't tell you what it felt like.”  Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited

                        Doug Cowling
                        Director of Music
                        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                        Toronto





                      • Douglas Cowling
                        From: Sandford MacLean Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey The Requiem was celebrated
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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                          From: Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...>
                          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey

                          The Requiem was celebrated on the relics of a saint canonised by the Pope in 1161.

                          The relics are in the tomb behind. I highly doubt there is an altar-stone with relics in the mensa upon which the chalice and paten must stand.

                          When Paul VI was made a monsignor and prelate in the early 1930's, he wrote a letter to his parents with some amusement that he now had the right to use a portable altar-stone.  High-flying papal functionaries said their daily mass at home.

                          Doug Cowling
                          Director of Music
                          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                          Toronto

                        • Sandford MacLean
                          Rarely do I reply to your posts, Lew, for fear of inciting your wrath and being chastised by you... But, I said on top or part of a reliquary . I m quite
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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                            Rarely do I reply to your posts, Lew, for fear of inciting your wrath and being chastised by you...

                            But,  I said "on top or part of a reliquary".  I'm quite familiar with the Shrine, having served at a Mass my father celebrated there in 1978.

                            Sandford MacLean

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On Jul 24, 2013, at 15:02, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

                             

                            If you would look at the pictures, Sandford, you will see that the altar is not *on* the relics. It's against the relics. It's rather plain to see from the photos. If the EF'ers didn't bring a stone with them, then it was not "on the relics of a saint canonised by the Pope in 1161."


                            On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...> wrote:


                            Doug,

                            The Requiem was celebrated on the relics of a saint canonised by the Pope in 1161.  I doubt that would be a problem.

                            Sandford 

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On Jul 24, 2013, at 14:50, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                             

                            From: Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...>
                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] NLM: Extraordinary Form Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey

                            Is an altar stone required when the altar is right on top or part of a reliquary?  Surely that is what the Shrine of St Edward the Confessor is.


                            I'll bet that no self-respecting extaordinista would celebrate mass on an Anglican Table without a portable altar stone.

                            They've closed the chapel at Brideshead, Bridey and the Bishop; Mummy's requiem was the last mass said there. After she was buried the priest came in - I was there alone. I don't think he saw me - and took out the altar stone and put it in his bag; then he burned the wads of wool with the holy oil on them and threw the ash outside; he emptied the holy water stoup and blew out the lamp in the sanctuary and left the tabernacle open and empty, as though from now on it was always to be Good Friday. I suppose none of this makes any sense to you, Charles, poor agnostic. I stayed there till he was gone, and then, suddenly there wasn't any chapel there any more, just an oddly decorated room. I can't tell you what it felt like.”  Evelyn Waugh, Brideshead Revisited

                            Doug Cowling
                            Director of Music
                            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                            Toronto




                          • Douglas Cowling
                            ... Actually, the body is inside the stone tomb. The wooden feretory was added by Mary Tudor after the Edwardine despoliation and remarkably surivived the
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 24, 2013
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                              On 7/24/13 3:07 PM, "Simon Kershaw" <simon@...> wrote:

                              >Actually, the body of the saint and king is atop the shrine-tomb, in the
                              >wooden feretory.

                              Actually, the body is inside the stone tomb. The wooden feretory was added
                              by Mary Tudor after the Edwardine despoliation and remarkably surivived
                              the Purtian desecrations of the Commonwealth.

                              I love the minutiae of summer liturgy discussions. Time to use all that
                              trivia we have but can never use.

                              Did you know that there was no room for Richard's III wife, Queen Anne
                              Neville, in the shrine chapel, so they buried her in front of the sedilia.
                              Kind of rude to be stepping on a queen all the time.

                              Doug Cowling
                              Director of Music
                              St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                              Toronto
                            • Simon Kershaw
                              I think neither of us is precisely right. Before the dissolution of the Abbey and the spoliation of the shrine, the saint was buried in an ornate golden
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 25, 2013
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                                I think neither of us is precisely right.

                                Before the dissolution of the Abbey and the spoliation of the shrine,
                                the saint was buried in an ornate golden feretory atop the shrine
                                stonework. When the shrine was taken down, the saint's remains were
                                placed in a specially hollowed out dip in the top of the stonework. The
                                plain wooden top was added when the monastery was restored under Mary I,
                                to replace the golden canopy that had previously been there and which
                                had contained the body of King Edward.

                                I had made the assumption that the body was replaced within the woodwork
                                during the monastic restoration, but that doesn't appear to be so. Nor,
                                however, is the body 'inside' the stonework -- at least, it is not deep
                                within it, which one might infer from 'inside'; rather it is at the very
                                top.

                                And I haven't gone and rechecked this, but surely the destruction of the
                                shrine was a Henrician rather than Edwardine?

                                Not only did the shrine survive the presbyterian Commonwealth, it also
                                survived being destroyed in the 18th century, when plans to open up the
                                entire length of the Abbey church as a single space from west door to
                                the apse in which King Edward's shrine stands -- sweeping away pulpitum
                                and reredos and shrine and moving the choir stalls east of the crossing
                                -- were passed by a vote of the collegiate Chapter, and only vetoed at a
                                subsequent meeting. What probably helped overturn the decision was the
                                need to provide space for the Coronation before the High Altar and
                                enthronement in the crossing.

                                simon
                                thinking that he very probably won't be around to see the coronation of
                                King George in 50 or so years' time


                                On 24/07/2013 20.27, Douglas Cowling wrote:
                                > On 7/24/13 3:07 PM, "Simon Kershaw"<simon@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >> >Actually, the body of the saint and king is atop the shrine-tomb, in the
                                >> >wooden feretory.
                                > Actually, the body is inside the stone tomb. The wooden feretory was added
                                > by Mary Tudor after the Edwardine despoliation and remarkably surivived
                                > the Purtian desecrations of the Commonwealth.
                                >



                                --
                                Simon Kershaw
                                simon@...
                                Saint Ives, Cambridgeshire
                              • Lewis Whitaker
                                I think you re still not right.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1504535/Radar-pinpoints-tomb-of-King-Edward-the-Confessor.html
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 25, 2013
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                                  On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Simon Kershaw <simon@...> wrote:
                                  I think neither of us is precisely right.

                                  Before the dissolution of the Abbey and the spoliation of the shrine,
                                  the saint was buried in an ornate golden feretory atop the shrine
                                  stonework. When the shrine was taken down, the saint's remains were
                                  placed in a specially hollowed out dip in the top of the stonework. The
                                  plain wooden top was added when the monastery was restored under Mary I,
                                  to replace the golden canopy that had previously been there and which
                                  had contained the body of King Edward.

                                  I had made the assumption that the body was replaced within the woodwork
                                  during the monastic restoration, but that doesn't appear to be so. Nor,
                                  however, is the body 'inside' the stonework -- at least, it is not deep
                                  within it, which one might infer from 'inside'; rather it is at the very
                                  top.

                                  And I haven't gone and rechecked this, but surely the destruction of the
                                  shrine was a Henrician rather than Edwardine?

                                  Not only did the shrine survive the presbyterian Commonwealth, it also
                                  survived being destroyed in the 18th century, when plans to open up the
                                  entire length of the Abbey church as a single space from west door to
                                  the apse in which King Edward's shrine stands -- sweeping away pulpitum
                                  and reredos and shrine and moving the choir stalls east of the crossing
                                  -- were passed by a vote of the collegiate Chapter, and only vetoed at a
                                  subsequent meeting. What probably helped overturn the decision was the
                                  need to provide space for the Coronation before the High Altar and
                                  enthronement in the crossing.

                                  simon
                                  thinking that he very probably won't be around to see the coronation of
                                  King George in 50 or so years' time


                                  On 24/07/2013 20.27, Douglas Cowling wrote:
                                  > On 7/24/13 3:07 PM, "Simon Kershaw"<simon@...>  wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> >Actually, the body of the saint and king is atop the shrine-tomb, in the
                                  >> >wooden feretory.
                                  > Actually, the body is inside the stone tomb. The wooden feretory was added
                                  > by Mary Tudor after the Edwardine despoliation and remarkably surivived
                                  > the Purtian desecrations of the Commonwealth.
                                  >



                                  --
                                  Simon Kershaw
                                  simon@...
                                  Saint Ives, Cambridgeshire


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                                • Lewis Whitaker
                                  Ooops. Mea culpa. The archaeologists have located the original tomb 10 feet behind the present altar, under the shrine built by Henry III in 1269, which still
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 25, 2013
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                                    Ooops. Mea culpa.

                                    The archaeologists have located the original tomb 10 feet behind the present altar, under the shrine built by Henry III in 1269, which still contains the remains of the saint.


                                    On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:


                                    On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Simon Kershaw <simon@...> wrote:
                                    I think neither of us is precisely right.

                                    Before the dissolution of the Abbey and the spoliation of the shrine,
                                    the saint was buried in an ornate golden feretory atop the shrine
                                    stonework. When the shrine was taken down, the saint's remains were
                                    placed in a specially hollowed out dip in the top of the stonework. The
                                    plain wooden top was added when the monastery was restored under Mary I,
                                    to replace the golden canopy that had previously been there and which
                                    had contained the body of King Edward.

                                    I had made the assumption that the body was replaced within the woodwork
                                    during the monastic restoration, but that doesn't appear to be so. Nor,
                                    however, is the body 'inside' the stonework -- at least, it is not deep
                                    within it, which one might infer from 'inside'; rather it is at the very
                                    top.

                                    And I haven't gone and rechecked this, but surely the destruction of the
                                    shrine was a Henrician rather than Edwardine?

                                    Not only did the shrine survive the presbyterian Commonwealth, it also
                                    survived being destroyed in the 18th century, when plans to open up the
                                    entire length of the Abbey church as a single space from west door to
                                    the apse in which King Edward's shrine stands -- sweeping away pulpitum
                                    and reredos and shrine and moving the choir stalls east of the crossing
                                    -- were passed by a vote of the collegiate Chapter, and only vetoed at a
                                    subsequent meeting. What probably helped overturn the decision was the
                                    need to provide space for the Coronation before the High Altar and
                                    enthronement in the crossing.

                                    simon
                                    thinking that he very probably won't be around to see the coronation of
                                    King George in 50 or so years' time


                                    On 24/07/2013 20.27, Douglas Cowling wrote:
                                    > On 7/24/13 3:07 PM, "Simon Kershaw"<simon@...>  wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> >Actually, the body of the saint and king is atop the shrine-tomb, in the
                                    >> >wooden feretory.
                                    > Actually, the body is inside the stone tomb. The wooden feretory was added
                                    > by Mary Tudor after the Edwardine despoliation and remarkably surivived
                                    > the Purtian desecrations of the Commonwealth.
                                    >



                                    --
                                    Simon Kershaw
                                    simon@...
                                    Saint Ives, Cambridgeshire


                                    ------------------------------------

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                                  • Douglas Cowling
                                    ... Yes, of course. Interesting history to the saint s relics: http://www.westminster-abbey.org/visit-us/highlights/edward-the-confessor Doug Cowling Director
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 25, 2013
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                                      On 7/25/13 6:20 PM, "Simon Kershaw" <simon@...> wrote:

                                      >And I haven't gone and rechecked this, but surely the destruction of the
                                      >shrine was a Henrician rather than Edwardine?

                                      Yes, of course. Interesting history to the saint's relics:

                                      http://www.westminster-abbey.org/visit-us/highlights/edward-the-confessor

                                      Doug Cowling
                                      Director of Music
                                      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                      Toronto
                                    • Lewis Whitaker
                                      .... still no definitive answer on the altar stone, though. Inquiring Minds Want To Know! On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:35 PM, Douglas Cowling
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 25, 2013
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                                        .... still no definitive answer on the altar stone, though.

                                        Inquiring Minds Want To Know!




                                        On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:35 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                                        On 7/25/13 6:20 PM, "Simon Kershaw" <simon@...> wrote:

                                        >And I haven't gone and rechecked this, but surely the destruction of the
                                        >shrine was a Henrician rather than Edwardine?

                                        Yes, of course. Interesting history to the saint's relics:

                                        http://www.westminster-abbey.org/visit-us/highlights/edward-the-confessor

                                        Doug Cowling
                                        Director of Music
                                        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                        Toronto








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                                      • wx5116
                                        The relics are there - that should be close enough. David ... David Lewis Arlington VA USA dlewisaao@aol.com In a message dated 7/25/2013 10:46:00 P.M.
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 26, 2013
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                                          The relics are there - that should be close enough.
                                           
                                          David
                                           
                                          ---------------------------
                                          David Lewis
                                          Arlington VA USA
                                          dlewisaao@...
                                           
                                          In a message dated 7/25/2013 10:46:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lhwhitaker@... writes:


                                          .... still no definitive answer on the altar stone, though.

                                          Inquiring Minds Want To Know!




                                          On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:35 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                                          On 7/25/13 6:20 PM, "Simon Kershaw" <simon@...> wrote:

                                          >And I haven't gone and rechecked this, but surely the destruction of the
                                          >shrine was a Henrician rather than Edwardine?

                                          Yes, of course. Interesting history to the saint's relics:

                                          http://www.westminster-abbey.org/visit-us/highlights/edward-the-confessor

                                          Doug Cowling
                                          Director of Music
                                          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                          Toronto








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                                        • Lewis Whitaker
                                          That s a very Post-Vatican II answer. Close enough isn t in the rubrics.
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 26, 2013
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                                            That's a very Post-Vatican II answer. "Close enough" isn't in the rubrics.


                                            On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:47 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:


                                            The relics are there - that should be close enough.
                                             
                                            David
                                             
                                            ---------------------------
                                            David Lewis
                                            Arlington VA USA
                                            dlewisaao@...

                                             
                                            In a message dated 7/25/2013 10:46:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lhwhitaker@... writes:


                                            .... still no definitive answer on the altar stone, though.

                                            Inquiring Minds Want To Know!




                                            On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:35 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                                            On 7/25/13 6:20 PM, "Simon Kershaw" <simon@...> wrote:

                                            >And I haven't gone and rechecked this, but surely the destruction of the
                                            >shrine was a Henrician rather than Edwardine?

                                            Yes, of course. Interesting history to the saint's relics:

                                            http://www.westminster-abbey.org/visit-us/highlights/edward-the-confessor

                                            Doug Cowling
                                            Director of Music
                                            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                            Toronto








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                                          • Douglas Cowling
                                            From: Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Shrine of Edward the Confessor The relics are there - that should be close enough. We need a canonical
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jul 26, 2013
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                                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Shrine of Edward the Confessor

                                              The relics are there - that should be close enough.

                                              We need a canonical decision on this. I would opine that a mass not celebrated on an altar stone would be illicit but not invalid.

                                              On another front, Mgr. Marini looked mighty unhappy at the pope's big mass at Aparaceida with that jumbo chalice. Goodness, the music was wretchedly performed.

                                              Doug Cowling
                                              Director of Music
                                              St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                              Toronto

                                            • Robert White
                                              Re: [liturgy-l] Shrine of Edward the Confessor Friday, July 26, 2013, 10:10:55 AM,Douglas Cowling wrote: We need a canonical decision on this. I would opine
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jul 26, 2013
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                                                Re: [liturgy-l] Shrine of Edward the Confessor Friday, July 26, 2013, 10:10:55 AM,Douglas Cowling wrote:


                                                We need a canonical decision on this. I would opine that a mass not celebrated on an altar stone would be illicit but not invalid.


                                                Question 1 (with moderator's hat hovering): Why is this a matter that has occupied the list now for a couple of days? It seems to me that this is the sort of near obsession with minutia that has kept a fair number of members from continuing participation in the list discussions.

                                                Question 2: Since I am not aware that any of the altars from which I have celebrate Eucharist in over 26 years of ordained ministry in the Lutheran Church had "altar stones" (there may be in the altar of the Episcopal Church in which I am now serving), does that mean that none of those Eucharists were licit?

                                                -- 
                                                Best regards,
                                                 Bob White                        
                                                mailto:prrmwhite@...

                                                It isn't that they can't see the solution.
                                                It is that they can't see the problem.
                                                --G.K. Chesterton
                                                     
                                              • Sean W. Reed
                                                Answer 1 - because it has been found of interest, and no other topic was presented. Is this a problem, or are only banal general topics preferred? SWR Sent
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jul 26, 2013
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                                                  Answer 1 - because it has been found of interest, and no other topic was presented.  Is this a problem, or are only banal general topics preferred?


                                                  SWR

                                                  Sent from my iPad

                                                  On Jul 26, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Robert White <whiteslists@...> wrote:

                                                   

                                                  Friday, July 26, 2013, 10:10:55 AM,Douglas Cowling wrote:


                                                  We need a canonical decision on this. I would opine that a mass not celebrated on an altar stone would be illicit but not invalid.


                                                  Question 1 (with moderator's hat hovering): Why is this a matter that has occupied the list now for a couple of days? It seems to me that this is the sort of near obsession with minutia that has kept a fair number of members from continuing participation in the list discussions.

                                                  Question 2: Since I am not aware that any of the altars from which I have celebrate Eucharist in over 26 years of ordained ministry in the Lutheran Church had "altar stones" (there may be in the altar of the Episcopal Church in which I am now serving), does that mean that none of those Eucharists were licit?
                                                • Sean W. Reed
                                                  Question 2 deals with the issue of an EF MASS and the rubrics governing that. In a Lutheran Eucharist I suppose you are free to do what ever the Lutheran
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jul 26, 2013
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                                                    Question 2 deals with the issue of an EF MASS and the rubrics governing that.  In a Lutheran Eucharist I suppose you are free to do what ever the Lutheran books require.



                                                    Sent from my iPad

                                                    On Jul 26, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Robert White <whiteslists@...> wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Friday, July 26, 2013, 10:10:55 AM,Douglas Cowling wrote:


                                                    We need a canonical decision on this. I would opine that a mass not celebrated on an altar stone would be illicit but not invalid.


                                                    Question 1 (with moderator's hat hovering): Why is this a matter that has occupied the list now for a couple of days? It seems to me that this is the sort of near obsession with minutia that has kept a fair number of members from continuing participation in the list discussions.

                                                    Question 2: Since I am not aware that any of the altars from which I have celebrate Eucharist in over 26 years of ordained ministry in the Lutheran Church had "altar stones" (there may be in the altar of the Episcopal Church in which I am now serving), does that mean that none of those Eucharists were licit?

                                                    -- 
                                                    Best regards,
                                                     Bob White                        
                                                    mailto:prrmwhite@...

                                                    It isn't that they can't see the solution.
                                                    It is that they can't see the problem.
                                                    --G.K. Chesterton
                                                         

                                                  • Simon Kershaw
                                                    I m not sure who needs a canonical decision on this! Certainly Westminster Abbey doesn t. It does seem clear that the original intention is that the
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jul 26, 2013
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                                                      I'm not sure who needs a 'canonical decision' on this! Certainly
                                                      Westminster Abbey doesn't.

                                                      It does seem clear that the original intention is that the Eucharist is
                                                      celebrated at the tomb of the saint, and that led to the practice
                                                      (rather ridiculous and demeaning IMO) of having minute fragments of the
                                                      poor old body of some saint being distruibuted around umpteen altar
                                                      tables. Hardly a good Christian burial for anyone, and the worst kind of
                                                      trade in relics. But at Westminster the shrine of Edward the Confessor
                                                      contains his whole body, decently buried (even though it has been
                                                      descrated and ransacked on various occasions in the past, both during
                                                      and after the mediaeval period). It's pretty damn close to the original
                                                      intent that the Eucharist be celebrated at the tomb of the saint, much
                                                      closer than any petty canon law regulations.

                                                      Now, whether in general the Eucharist always needs to be celebrated over
                                                      the tomb of a saint is another matter. I'm not aware of any recorded
                                                      instance of our Lord, when sharing a meal with his followers -- whether
                                                      before, at, or after the Last meal before his crucifixion -- ever
                                                      engaged in this practice or considered it necessary, or even considered
                                                      it at all.

                                                      simon

                                                      On Fri, Jul 26, 2013, at 03:10 PM, Douglas Cowling wrote:
                                                      > From: <dlewisaao@...>
                                                      > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Shrine of Edward the Confessor
                                                      >
                                                      > The relics are there - that should be close enough.
                                                      >
                                                      > We need a canonical decision on this. I would opine that a mass not
                                                      > celebrated on an altar stone would be illicit but not invalid.
                                                      >
                                                      > On another front, Mgr. Marini looked mighty unhappy at the pope's big
                                                      > mass
                                                      > at Aparaceida with that jumbo chalice. Goodness, the music was wretchedly
                                                      > performed.



                                                      --
                                                      Simon
                                                      simon@...
                                                    • Lewis Whitaker
                                                      Do you have a better topic to discuss, Bob? Why such hand wringing? Doesn t this list, almost by definition, deal with minutia to the point of near obsession?
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jul 26, 2013
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                                                        Do you have a better topic to discuss, Bob?

                                                        Why such hand wringing? Doesn't this list, almost by definition, deal with minutia to the point of near obsession?

                                                        Who are the "fair number of members" who are not participating because of this one thread?

                                                        It could not have been clearer that this issue is ONLY one that touches on those who follow the EF. Lutheran and Episcopal Churches have never required (as you style them) "altar stones."

                                                        Lew







                                                        On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Robert White <whiteslists@...> wrote:


                                                        Friday, July 26, 2013, 10:10:55 AM,Douglas Cowling wrote:


                                                        We need a canonical decision on this. I would opine that a mass not celebrated on an altar stone would be illicit but not invalid.


                                                        Question 1 (with moderator's hat hovering): Why is this a matter that has occupied the list now for a couple of days? It seems to me that this is the sort of near obsession with minutia that has kept a fair number of members from continuing participation in the list discussions.

                                                        Question 2: Since I am not aware that any of the altars from which I have celebrate Eucharist in over 26 years of ordained ministry in the Lutheran Church had "altar stones" (there may be in the altar of the Episcopal Church in which I am now serving), does that mean that none of those Eucharists were licit?

                                                        -- 
                                                        Best regards,
                                                         Bob White                        
                                                        mailto:prrmwhite@...

                                                        It isn't that they can't see the solution.
                                                        It is that they can't see the problem.
                                                        --G.K. Chesterton
                                                             


                                                      • Sean W. Reed
                                                        Lew - please be careful, he warned you the Moderator s Hat was hovering... SWR Sent from my iPad
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jul 26, 2013
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                                                          Lew - please be careful, he warned you the Moderator's Hat was hovering...


                                                          SWR

                                                          Sent from my iPad

                                                          On Jul 26, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

                                                           

                                                          Do you have a better topic to discuss, Bob?

                                                          Why such hand wringing? Doesn't this list, almost by definition, deal with minutia to the point of near obsession?

                                                          Who are the "fair number of members" who are not participating because of this one thread?

                                                          It could not have been clearer that this issue is ONLY one that touches on those who follow the EF. Lutheran and Episcopal Churches have never required (as you style them) "altar stones."

                                                          Lew







                                                          On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Robert White <whiteslists@...> wrote:


                                                          Friday, July 26, 2013, 10:10:55 AM,Douglas Cowling wrote:


                                                          We need a canonical decision on this. I would opine that a mass not celebrated on an altar stone would be illicit but not invalid.


                                                          Question 1 (with moderator's hat hovering): Why is this a matter that has occupied the list now for a couple of days? It seems to me that this is the sort of near obsession with minutia that has kept a fair number of members from continuing participation in the list discussions.

                                                          Question 2: Since I am not aware that any of the altars from which I have celebrate Eucharist in over 26 years of ordained ministry in the Lutheran Church had "altar stones" (there may be in the altar of the Episcopal Church in which I am now serving), does that mean that none of those Eucharists were licit?

                                                          -- 
                                                          Best regards,
                                                           Bob White                        
                                                          mailto:prrmwhite@...

                                                          It isn't that they can't see the solution.
                                                          It is that they can't see the problem.
                                                          --G.K. Chesterton
                                                               


                                                        • Douglas Cowling
                                                          From: Robert White Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Shrine of Edward the Confessor Question 1 (with moderator s hat hovering): Why is this a
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jul 26, 2013
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                                                            From: Robert White <whiteslists@...>
                                                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Shrine of Edward the Confessor

                                                            Question 1 (with moderator's hat hovering): Why is this a matter that has occupied the list now for a couple of days? It seems to me that this is the sort of near obsession with minutia that has kept a fair number of members from continuing participation in the list discussions.

                                                            It's summertime! 

                                                            All lists that I'm on enjoy becoming near-parodies of themselves when we reach the depths of July.

                                                            I was going to move on to a discussion of the surviving saints' relics and shrines in England, but I will content myself with the award-winning reconstruction of the shrine of St. Frideswide in Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford. The pieces of the despoiled shrine were recovered from other places in the cathedral and put back together like a giant jig-saw puzzle.


                                                            Doug Cowling
                                                            Director of Music
                                                            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                                            Toronto

                                                          • Ian Gomersall
                                                            Less contentiously - here is a report of a visit to the shrine! http://stchrysostoms.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/a-kings-shrine/ Ian Lew - please be careful, he
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Oct 22, 2013
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                                                              Less contentiously - here is a report of a visit to the shrine!


                                                              Ian


                                                              Lew - please be careful, he warned you the Moderator's Hat was hovering...


                                                              SWR

                                                              Sent from my iPad

                                                              On Jul 26, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

                                                               

                                                              Do you have a better topic to discuss, Bob?

                                                              Why such hand wringing? Doesn't this list, almost by definition, deal with minutia to the point of near obsession?

                                                              Who are the "fair number of members" who are not participating because of this one thread?

                                                              It could not have been clearer that this issue is ONLY one that touches on those who follow the EF. Lutheran and Episcopal Churches have never required (as you style them) "altar stones."

                                                              Lew



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